JimGant

10 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

So.... I would simplify the above and say that the DTA is what determines when and how your income is converted to savings.

Probably so.  I doubt Thailand would, if it had primary taxation rights, allow a Yank to say: 'Sorry, buddy, but this money has already been taxed by the US, so it is no longer income.'

Not sure what tax thread to throw this into. But, this seems as good as any.

Anyway, we know that "savings" remitted to Thailand is not assessable income -- and thus not taxable. In fact, by definition, it's not even income, but savings. So, it would seem that, prior to being remitted to Thailand, income, if possible, needs to be converted to savings, if we want to avoid Thai taxes.

But how? Certainly all those monies in my savings account were, at one time "income." When did they magically become savings? Best guess is when taxes were paid on them. And in, my case, all my income has taxes 'withheld at source." And, I've upped this withholding rate to more than cover what the final taxes would be, when I file my US tax return the following calendar year. Thus, my income is free of all taxes -- and I would guess -- it's now considered "savings."

And all this "after tax" income -- now savings -- plops into my savings account, from which I suck out my Wise transfers. So, I would treat this as a non assessable income remittance to Thailand. As such, it's not reported on a Thai tax return. And for me, at least, I wouldn't be anywhere near having any taxable income -- and would not bother getting a TIN, or filing a tax return.

In the remote situation where I'd be called in to TRD for a chat -- I certainly could explain that what I remitted were savings, not income.

If you think about it -- the old rules, where income remitted to Thailand the year after it was earned -- was exempt for taxes -- could be, because in the "year after," it had morphed into non taxable savings. Hmmm.

On 6/25/2024 at 7:28 PM, NoDisplayName said:

Enter amount of remittance and check "savings" as source of funds.

I thought tax forms wanted only assessable income entered? Savings are NOT assessable income -- so why would you enter it -- and check "Savings" as source of funds?

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I am certain that when members make decisions about how to proceed in specific areas of tax, they want to understand the penalties and downsides that exist so they can make sound decisions.

Agreed. But they also want to get a feel for the probability that they'll suffer some consequence for not filing a nil tax return -- or for not getting a TIN after 60 days. So far, we've seen NO consequences reported; which, of course, doesn't mean there might not be in the future. However, I really doubt TRD would waste resources on the chance of collecting a 2000 baht fine. Anyway, you keep reporting the law, and I'll focus on probabilities. That should make for balanced reporting.

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Her reply was that anyone with 120,000 income from employment (including employment pensions) should file a tax return

And my question to her: How would you know if I have over 120k in assessable income, since I'm an expat, and all my income is foreign source income, most, if not all, is non assessable via DTA. Or, under the old rules, was remitted from a previous year's financial account. Are you going to arbitrarily start calling in some farangs for a discussion on their remitted cash flow -- just to see if they should have filed, even with not taxable income?  I didn't think so.

2 hours ago, stat said:

Th for some reason does not tax German government pension. In the DTA,  TH has the sole right to tax, but they don't do it.

Are you saying, if in the old days, and you remitted your German pension to Thailand in year earned -- they wouldn't tax it, if you filed a tax return? I believe you're confusing not filing, and the "pension remitted is previous year's earnings" charade, as your observation that Thailand doesn't tax it.

"They don't tax it" is, of course, the illogical extension of "I didn't file a Thai tax return for this income." Duh.

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Later we discovered that a fine is capable of being levied, then we found out about the back audits.

We did? Must of missed those reported examples.

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

They will/may advise you filing is not required, but they WILL let you file if you desire.  That is no indication that filing is necessary.  Just that they don't want to argue.  Easier to let crazy handsome man file his paperwork if he wants.

BINGO!

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The reality is that YOU have failed repeatedly to provide this forum with any credible substantiated facts that support your emotive opinion

Sigh. I'll just let it lie that others here have substantiated that TRD is not interested in folks filing tax returns where no taxes are owed. Again, let the reader decide on, whether reality or legality, makes more sense.

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

With respect, the Royal Decree does not state the foreign source income is not assessable.  Instead, it states it is exempt.  Is 'exempt' and 'not assessable' the same?

 

If it was the same, why does Thailand have a form specifically where one must list their 'tax exemptions'  as part of a tax return?

I believe the exemption lines on the tax return are for items -- like per diem -- to net out gross domestic income. Foreign source income is, of practicality, treated as already netted-out income. But, yeah, you could report foreign source income gross, then line item out exempt expenses. But why? The whole game is to not even report any foreign source income on the tax return -- it is -- by Royal Decree an "exempt", ergo, "not assessable" amount of income.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Frankly, I think it's nonsense of a degree, the like of which we've not seen here before.

The only nonsense is Mike Lister's constant drumbeat about having to file a tax return if your assessable income exceeds 60000, 120000, or 220000 -- depending on your status. All my workers -- probably all the workers in my Moo Baan -- exceed these numbers. But few, if any, have income that exceeds the taxable threshold. So, why in the world would TRD want to see any filings from them -- or from farangs also without taxable income.

Quote

I will calculate if I owe any income taxes (including the use of the DTA). If I do not have to pay any income taxes, then I will not lodge a tax return.

Thanks, T&G -- for the most sane utterance to come out of this discussion. Mike, not sure why you're such a troublemaker over this issue.....? Thailand -- and TRD -- are not interested in folks with no taxable income. Only you are, apparently.

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

They stated that there is no 'rule or regulation' in the Tax Code in that regards, but that TRD had advised in the past that PIT people do not have to lodge a return, if they do not work for a company OR if they do not have to pay any income taxes.

AMEN!

23 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My wife then noted one can apply for a tax-ID online, and we are now investigating that.

Please report "no." I've got print outs from this forum, from two different sources, who reported they were denied a TIN, because they didn't have work permits. Those are in my file, should I ever be audited about taking a tax credit against my US taxes, for the piddly amount I pay in taxes against my Bangkok Bank savings account interest.

Why? Because I'm supposedly not allowed a credit -- if I'm able to have the Thai taxes refunded. But, of course, for that refund -- I need a TIN. And, since I got advice on an upscale forum, like Asean Now -- that I can't get a TIN -- and thus can't get a refund -- well, hey Uncle Sam, there you have it.

Anyway, nitnoy credit. But minimum effort, as only an entry of the credit on one line of my US tax return (the more involved Form 1116 is only required for tax credit amounts exceeding $600 -- married, filing jointly).

So, happy not to have a TIN, nor, apparently, required to have one.

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

It reads like a lot of effort to fill in a form for no tax due ?? But maybe I am missing something??

No, you've just been brainwashed by reading too much on this forum, about having to file a tax return, because your assessable income is 60000 baht (about one/third of what my gardener is paid -- and who, of course, files no income tax form). Ludicrous. Worse that can happen is a 2000 baht fine - and the chance of that happening is zilch.

Time to grow a set -- and read the royal decree literally -- your foreign source income is NOT assessable. Yes, this was written when remitted income was the flavor of the day. But, I would bet a bundle that this will extend to worldwide income, should that come about.

Frustrating that BoI won't say: I don't know. But, have you ever gotten such an answer from a Thai? Nope. They're maddeningly adept at not losing face, by admitting they don't know. Department store clerks are the worst. But, that's part of the price we pay for living here -- and it pales in comparison to the good aspects.

2 hours ago, stat said:

Thailand stated explicitly that once income is taxed somewhere else it will not be taxed again in TH.

There were rumblings of that, early in this game, that had said something like, "If your home country has a DTA with Thailand, any you pay taxes to your home country, then Thailand will not tax same income." And a recent article in the Pattaya rag, without reference, said basically the same. Such language would make matters much easier on both you and me, as well as TRD. However, it would also cost Thailand lost tax revenue, by cutting Thailand out of the pattern, where the DTA gives it primary taxation rights.

And primary taxation rights mean Thailand keeps all the taxes, and doesn't have to absorb a credit. Only the home country absorbs a credit. Don't really believe Thailand wants to forgo a taxation windfall by saying, "pay taxes to home country, forget paying full fare taxes to Thailand, per DTA."

You can give up your Virginia residency -- for tax purposes -- but still keep your current drivers license. However, should you renew that license, that's prima facie proof that you're still a resident of Virginia -- and thus subject to Virginia income tax.