JimGant

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The resident tax payer, who derive assessable income from ... assets situated outside of Thailand, will hereafter be subject to taxation in Thailand during the year the income is remitted, regardless of when it was earned.  This shall not apply to any foreign-sourced income earned before 1-January-2024.

 

So that suggests the income you earned (when not a tax resident to Thailand) can still potentially be taxed by Thailand in year 2026 or any later year if you remit that income into Thailand. 

Joe Blow retires in home country in 2025. He has a private pension, which he salts away in a savings account established in 2025. He does the same for his private pensions earned in 2026 thru 2032 -- living off of only his social security. In 2033 Joe Blow moves to Thailand, and is here most of the year and is thus a tax resident.

Joe Blow wires all his 2025-2032 savings to Thailand in 2033. Sanity and common sense would dictate that Thailand has no tax claim against those salted away private pensions, even tho' the DTA says Thailand has primary taxation rights on private pensions. And, of course, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, if Thailand just taxed income, and not remitted income. Of course, the TRD MFWIC might be insane, with no common sense.....

The other side of the coin..... Fat cat Thai billionaire, a tax resident of Thailand, earns zillions of dollars abroad, but never remits it to Thailand. Now, this year, 2025, he leaves Thailand for 7 months -- and remits those zillions in foreign income. Would they be taxable when bounced against this: A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand. Hmmm. If so, certainly give incentive to hop on your yacht and take an extended vacation.

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I can't understand what idiot would give up US citizenship.

How about the transgender who's just been told by the new administration that he/she/it can't play on the womens' soccer team?

23 hours ago, Presnock said:

Now the US is changing some tax laws so that those Americans being tax resident in foreign  countries can opt out of US taxes and just pay Thailand

What are you talking about? Certainly not the Earned Income Tax Credit, which has been around 50 years? And, I got a 'no joy' when I tried to log into your 'taxpayer advocate' link....

Nope. The 'saving clause' found in all US DTAs allows the US to tax all income regardless of what the DTA says (with a few exceptions, like alimony). Yes, in these situations the US is secondary tax authority -- and has to reduce its tax bill with a credit for Thai taxes paid.  But there is no option to "opt out" for filing and paying US taxes (if not overwhelmed by the tax credit).

I hope you're not referring to the Thomas Carden scheme, where he maintains (incorrectly) that there's an exclusion in the Thai-US DTA, allowing a US citizen, who's a Thai tax resident, to not pay US taxes on his IRA cashout, remitted to Thailand?

4 hours ago, Tom100 said:

 Bribery is common for expedited public services and to bypass regulations.

Hey, now the US can participate in greasing palms, as Trump has ended enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I guess he understands there are many aspects to the "art of the deal."

On 2/11/2025 at 7:43 AM, bkk6060 said:

I have never eaten in a restaurant or been to a hotel where I could not buy a drink between these hours.  

Me neither. But having to drink my wine out of a coffee cup sucked.

2 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

To follow up on this, my accountant in the USA told me that any tax that I end up paying to Thailand is deductible from the taxes I pay in the USA.

True, as long as that deduction is against taxes paid on the same income. Thus, if Thailand charges taxes against your remitted Roth IRA, you couldn't take a tax a deduction against your US taxes -- since there are no US taxes on your Roth. However, if I had remitted Roth income to Thailand in 2024 (or later), Thailand wouldn't tax my Roth, 'cause I wouldn't have even declared it on a tax return, using Por 162 to show my Roth was pre 2024 income -- and thus non assessable.

7 hours ago, InlandSea said:

Would the principle on a CD purchased in 2023 be considered non-assessable?

I would think pre 2024 income used to buy a CD would qualify under Por 162. That some folks, like Expattax Thai, say only savings in a bank account qualifies -- flies in the face of logic: why would Por 162 not cover a near liquid cash account like a CD? Anyway, this will all sort out eventually, I hope.

Are all your US holdings financial, i.e., no property holdings? If so, PoD (Totten Trust) and designated beneficiary will replace need for a Will.

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Tax?  What tax?  Convert in a year(s) you're on a long vacation with no significant income.

Sorry, I must be dense. How can I avoid tax on a conversion to a Roth by being on a long vacation? -- not being in the US for 180 days doesn't quite play out for a citizen. And no significant income? Kinda hard to do if you've got a significant annual pension.

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

Wow. That's 180 degrees out from what Expatthaitax has been saying (and which many of us, and TRD hotline, have taken issue with). And you're saying your Roth is also pre-2024 savings -- which I certainly agree with. But which Expatthaitax says, nope, has to be cash in a bank account. Bonkers -- although they didn't just dream this up, so must be a high level tip from a TRD type -- whose identity would be interesting to know.

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

when I pressed Carden's Thai tax attorney on the issue of Roths

I'm just curious about his famous tax evasive scheme on Traditional IRAs. Maybe you've already converted yours to a Roth.....which, of course, means you had to pay Uncle Sam taxes on those conversions -- when you could have hired Carden and sold all your Traditional IRAs tax free! 🙂

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

One of the other bottom lines of their advice, which I found reassuring was, if someones chooses to NOT file.... as long as when the dust settles they don't actually owe any taxes in the TRD's opinion if it ever comes to an audit or whatever... then there's no serious consequences involved.

Gosh they're stupid. By saying that, they're chasing away customers, who might have paid 7500 +15000, but didn't owe any taxes -- but had read on this forum about the horrors of not filing if you exceeded the 60/120/220k assessable income thresholds.

59 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Carden's office is claiming they have confirmed with the TRD legal staff the interpretation that for an expat to claim Thai tax exemptions for foreign remittances like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

John, if that were true, it would be headline news in the expat community....

I can't believe you went to Carden. First, I know you're smart enough to do your own taxes. Second, you were in on that thread several years back regarding Carden's illegal scheme -- which he successfully sold to many Americans -- whereby you never have to pay any taxes, to either Thailand or the US, on your Traditional IRA cashout -- as long as you're a Thai tax resident. Imagine. Move to Thailand -- the only country in the world where Americans, according to Carden, uniquely have an exemption in the tax treaty language to avoid IRA taxation. Wow! Too good to be true!? Duh.

And I just re-read some of your comments on this old thread, namely, that Carden's advertised educational bonafides are really weak. Plus, he's only an Enrolled Agent, whose only educational requirement is a "high school diploma." Yes, there are a lot of good, sharp EAs out there. Carden isn't one of them. He's a charlatan, and I believe Ben Hart has already honed in on this.

Oh, did you ask him about tax exempt IRAs? I believe Por 161 may have put a knot in his tail. Which is good, since apparently his scheme was under the radar as far as the IRS was concerned.

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I said, why don't we all just say our remittances are non assessable?.  Close all these tax threads and forget about it. 

Or, how about we say some or our remittances are non assessable, while others are assessable. Let's call this novel notion: self-assessment. We fill out the tax return ourselves, using the grey matter between our ears -- and file online, or by mail, or drop box. No hand holding by TRD. And TRD's limited resources could then be restricted to compliance audits. And maybe -- this is why they're collecting bank statements but not analyzing them -- they're looking at the bottom number -- and a large remittance number but not a comparable tax return -- brings you to the front of the line for compliance audit.....

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

I can't recall off the top of my head if a German government pension (ie civil servant/military) is taxable in Thailand.

Nope. Just in Germany. Their DTA pretty much looks like all the others, since they all follow pretty religiously the OECD and UN Model Tax Treaties. Actually, the only country's DTA I came across, where Thailand has primary taxation rights on civil service/military pensions is Norway. [And here, Norway will tax it all, if you can't show you paid tax to Thailand on it.]

23 minutes ago, xxeo said:

Only the amount of money transferred to Thailand from a foreign country, listed in the bank statement,

How did you carve that up, using the DTA and Por 162? (Obviously, only you could provide the info)

1. 30% from govt pension, so non assessable per DTA

2. 10% from military pension, so non assessable per DTA

3. 30% from rental of home; secondarily assessable, but have to grant credit for tax paid to home country- DTA

4. 10% from private pension, so assessable income per DTA

5. 20% from pre 2024 savings, thus non assessable per Por 162

Re-reading your post, I see where they didn't ask you for any details. So just why did they ask for this information, as it doesn't drive assessable vs non assessable income to be filled in on your tax return? Lunacy.

18 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I believe that is what your quote above is intended to convey.

I don't know what that quote was intended to convey, or from whom, or at what level. It came about early in the Por 161 goat rope -- and maybe we'll hear no more about it.

28 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

DTA doesn't mean you can't be taxed by both countries, but we like to think of it in those terms for simplicity. 

Actually, the US always (because of the saving clause) has the right, albeit secondarily, to tax income the DTA says is "exclusively" taxable by Thailand. Thus, if this phrase resurfaces with some authority, certainly Yanks should have no reason to file a Thai tax return. Germans, for example, will -- if they remit private pensions to Thailand.

18 minutes ago, Presnock said:

jUst had an American friend and has a state pension, not civil service so I advised him if he was concened about it to go to the RD local office in CM

DTA gives exclusive taxation rights to US on "pensions paid for service to the government." This is NOT exclusive to the Federal govt, but also includes state and local govts. Which would include pensions paid to policemen and firemen.

21 minutes ago, Presnock said:

they asked him about his pension and if he paid taxes on it already which as an Amrerican we must pay our taxes always and the rd rep there told him that he therefore doesn't have assessable income so he doesn't need an ID number nor does he have to file taxes. 

Is the key here: Paid taxes on it already? Thus, would private pensions, which ARE assessable by Thailand per DTA, also be treated as non assessable, like govt pensions, 'cause you've paid US tax on them?

Back in Sept 2023, when Por 161 came out, remember this phrase from somewhere in the Thai govt:

Quote

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

Would be nice if they reiterated this formally. For Yanks, because we do have to pay tax on all our worldwide income, this would certainly put to rest the requirement to pay taxes on foreign income to Thailand. But for those who, because they're no longer residents, don't have to pay home country taxes on their income -- well, Thailand has their hand out to you. Welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. So sad.

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But now, both Siam Legal and another tax advisory firm have both been limiting that, advising that the tax exemption for LTR holders ONLY applies to remittance of foreign income earned from the PRIOR year.

Read the LTR thread. I think you'll find that BOI -- the LTR visa folks -- have snuffed the notion that only prior year income is exempt from taxation. Their say on LTR visas, and the tax exemptions derived from, certainly should hold more sway than Siam Legal. Again, all these firms reaching out to hold your hand, and pocket book, re new tax regulations -- should be discounted accordingly.

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And yet, he's been one of the most visible and active expat Thai tax figures opining on all this stuff,

Yeah, a real Elmer Gantry.

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Rather than simply omitting any mention of those, since the online Thai tax forms for 2024 reportedly provide no ability to report TAX EXEMPT remittances, he's been saying that his firm plans to attach a document file with the online filing reporting the TAX EXEMPT remittances and the basis for them being tax exempt.

Carden's a friggin' snake oil salesman. He's the one, as you remember, advertised to US tax payers that, if you're here for over 180 days (i.e., a tax resident), you can cash-in your Traditional IRA tax free -- no US, no Thai taxes, because of how he interprets the wording of the DTA. Bonkers, really -- move to Thailand and cash in your tax deferred Traditional IRA tax free ....? Seemingly, however, he's gotten away with this scheme, as the IRS has bigger fish to fry. Not sure how he manages this now, with Por 161 in effect...

Anyway, keep Carden at arms length, and more.

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

For example, via FATCA, the U.S. might share to Thailand that I, hypothetically, did monthly wire transfers from my U.S. account to Thailand of $1000 each month.

FATCA reports income, not remittances. You think FATCA was reworded to accomodate weirdo countries like Thailand and Malta, the only two countries that tax remittances, not income per se. Nope. FATCA only looks at income -- to include Thailand and Malta.

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Doing nothing is what may cause problems down the track.

Barf burgers.