JimGant

11 minutes ago, WingNut said:

However, I believe it’s always best to follow common standards of practice if you can (without too much extra hassle to yourself) and provide a clear, transparent record of things when it comes to matters like this.

Best I can determine, there are no "common standards" saying you must file supporting documents with your tax filing. There have been some recommendations that you should provide such documents -- but nothing to say you have to. Have I missed something?

And if I haven't -- if you decide to send copies of your ATM slips -- particularly if they're from a bank account containing no assessable income, or maybe comingled assessable income -- please rethink this decision, for your own sanity.

On 2/4/2025 at 12:17 AM, NoDisplayName said:

On 2/3/2025 at 11:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I saw a YT video the other day from last fall during which the American tax consultant guy here in BKK (Thomas Carden) said they had been told by someone in the TRD at some point that their general policy was going to be that they would treat tax-exempt instruments from the U.S. as tax exempt in Thailand...

 

Why would they do that if the point of the exercise is to broaden the tax base and bring in more funds?

 

Why would Thailand unilaterally give up taxing rights if they have authority to tax under the DTA?

Why would they do this? Because this is what's now incorporated in the latest OECD and UN Model tax treaties. Kind of an adjunct to no double taxation -- but in this case, no taxation by country B, if no taxation by country A (assuming it's subject to taxation by country A, and not exempt because you're a non resident).

The US-UK DTA is the prime example. Written after Roth IRAs were invented (unlike the Thai-US DTA, written before Roth), the US was able to incorporate, via subsequent protocol into the DTA, the following (from the US-UK tech explanation):

Quote

However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any
amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the
State in which the pension scheme is established if the recipient were a resident of that State.
Thus, for example, a distribution from a U.S. "Roth IRA" to a U.K. resident would be exempt
from tax in the United Kingdom to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in
the United States if it were distributed to a US resident.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-UK-Protocol-TE-7-22-2002.pdf

So, this is probably where Carden was coming from -- TRD is looking at doing what the US-UK protocol did re Roth IRAs.

But, for now, it's kind of in limbo. The US-Thai DTA has no mention of Roth IRAs (Code section 408a not mentioned), so there's nothing in the DTA that says Roth IRAs are treated the same as Traditional IRAs or private pensions. So how are they treated? I dunno.

It wouldn't be that hard for the "competent authorities" (the nomenclature for the folks who can modify DTAs) to do a handshake protocol. Or, even Thailand could go it alone, with a modification of its domestic tax law re Roths, which would be allowed, as it wouldn't violate the DTA policy affecting double taxation. Meanwhile, if you are remitting Roths, I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

On 2/6/2025 at 2:55 PM, flexomike said:

Has anyone received 1099 tax statement for 2024, both me and the wife are waiting for ours. last year I had already filed by time

Out of curiosity, why do you need it? If you got, at the end of 2023, "Your 2024 Social Security Cost of Living Adjustment" -- you already have all the numbers needed to punch into a tax return. But, maybe you didn't -- and that's why you're asking.

And, of course, if filing electronically you don't need a 1099, as there's no requirement to attach them to the filing. And even filing hard copy, 1099 only required if it has withholding tax indicated.

I had a couple slow 1099 folks this year, but had all the applicable numbers, so didn't need them. Did my TT on Jan 20; IRS opened up for filing on Jan 28; got my direct deposit refund Jan 29. Pretty smooth.

35 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

They have no idea about tax issues, and openly so as the consistently suggest we contact TRD, when a question is asked.

BOI has never, that I recall, suggested we contact TRD for answers to our questions. I actually imagine they put themselves above TRD, as they work directly for the Prime Minister. Anyway, this is another situation where it's easy, at least for me, to use the interpretation best to my advantage -- and take advantage of the tax exemption promised by the BOI. To do otherwise, and declare all that 2024 income I remitted in 2024, on a tax filing in 2025 -- would be ludicrous.

7 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Thai Immigration would therefore have to first establish who has income that could be classed as assemble for taxation, or whether you are exempt and therefore not required to file - never going to happen!

Sadly, they won't have to concern themselves with the particulars of your tax situation. They'll just need to require a form from TRD asserting TRD has evaluated your tax situation. To go along with your TM30 and TM47 presentations. Now, will TRD be equipped to evaluate tax status of a hoard of farangs, in order to issue a TM xx? Probably not -- unless this will snag some significant tax revenue that otherwise would have gone uncollected.

5 minutes ago, WingNut said:

My type of personal income is fully assessable, there is no question about it, and there is nothing to debate on this matter.

OK, I'm not trying to pull your chain. I'm just trying to understand why, if all your personal income was fully assessable, that you needed to provide documentation? Maybe if you needed to prove that some income was not assessable, would you feel compelled to show supporting documentation - and have a nice chat about DTAs and Por 162. But this was not your situation. And you've already said that you weren't required to provide supporting documentation.

Just trying to understand. No big deal -- just a curiosity.

On 2/4/2025 at 3:47 PM, WingNut said:

In the future, for my annual Thai tax filings, I may consider only attaching the individual receipts for the Wise transfers made to my Thai bank account, rather than submitting copies of my 12 months of local bank statements.

Why not submit nothing, as they weren't interested in anything you submitted this year. Just do a comprehensive self-assessment -- and drop off your return, samo samo doing an electronic filing. Any supporting documents would, of course, be salted away for any potential audit. But since the chance of an audit is almost non existent, I certainly wouldn't go to any extra effort to get 12 months of bank statements, etc.

On 2/3/2025 at 4:28 PM, WingNut said:

Yes, I had gone to the bank and requested they print out 12 months of 2024 original bank statements for me to submit to the tax office as part of my tax filing. I submitted those originals together with my tax return and they were stapled and attached to my PRD90 when it was submitted. 

And, as you previously reported, the TRD agent never perused the statements, instead giving you a "what's this sh**" look. I hope you didn't waste too much of your time and money getting bank statements not required.

2 hours ago, WingNut said:

Did the RD rep. agree with your determination?

 

She prepared the tax return forms for me. What do you think?

I think she didn't have a clue. Did her eyes glow when you explained how the DTA says this chunk of money is assessable, and this one is not? How about this chunk is not assessable because it falls into Por 162 exemption territory. And, this rental income is only secondarily taxable by Thailand, per DTA, thus it has to be decreased by the tax credit from my home country taxes.

Oh, I forgot -- all the income you presented was assessable, somehow determined by you. And this made her very happy, as she didn't have to chat with you over DTA language, and Por 162 language -- subjects she no doubt has any knowledge of. And, you've already said: She had no interest, of even knowledge why presented, of your bank account statements.

Nope. Forget hashing your return over with a clueless front line TRD clerk. Do it electronically, or mail it in, if you can -- or drop it in a drop box at the local RD's front door. Otherwise, you piss** in the wind.

13 hours ago, Guavaman said:

I asked the TRD information call center 1161 what evidence is required to show pre-2024 assessable income that can be remitted exempt of taxation under P. 162.

 

The official said: "hold the line, I will get the answer."  The answer was:  "You have to ask your local district tax office what evidence is required by them."

And if you E-file? Monty Python would have loved TRD for source material.

5 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I'm not sure TRD will give you a credit against your Thai tax bill if you paid taxes on your income in your home country.

When both countries are allowed to tax, one country is primary, the other secondary. Primary country gets to keep all taxes collected, while the secondary country has to reduce its taxes collected by the amount of the credit, meaning, if the primary country's taxes are higher than those of the secondary country, secondary country collects nothing.

Good example with US-Thai DTA is income from rental properties. If I'm a Thai tax resident, but have rental property income in the US -- the US gets to keep all taxes collected and doesn't have to absorb a credit from Thailand. However Thailand -- as secondary country -- does have to absorb a tax credit.

Quote

The first paragraph of Article 6 states the general rule that income of a resident of a
Contracting State derived from real property situated in the other Contracting State may be taxed
in the Contracting State in which the property is situated. This Article does not grant an exclusive taxing right to the situs State; the situs State is merely given the primary right to tax.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf

Only problem here is that a Thai tax return has no place to enter a credit. So, you would have to do some sleight-of-hand and determine what your total Thai tax would be after absorbing the tax credit; then figure out what fictitious income figure to insert that enables arriving at this total tax figure.

The opposite scenario, private pensions, has Thailand as primary taxation authority, and the US (per the saving clause) as secondary authority. Thus, the US is supposed to absorb the tax credit..... But Thailand has given lip service to, "you pay taxes to home country, we'll give you a credit for these taxes against any Thai taxes owed." Not sure why Thailand doesn't want to collect full fare, as the DTA stipulates. But, they can fiddle with their domestic tax rules, as long as it doesn't violate the DTA policy of 'no double taxation.' And clearly this doesn't. But like so much of what we're hearing, it's not certain what's gospel, and what's not.

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think the issue here is that you think that the TRD takes the peculiarities of IRS taxation into account on how they classify types of pension income.

Well, the Brit TRD equivalent certainly does (per my posting,above). When the TRD even figures out what a Roth IRA is, they could just do a Por exempting it from taxation, with no need for a meeting with a US "competent authority" to do a protocol arrangement -- unless they agree Por 162 already exempts it.

31 minutes ago, potless said:

I googled USA Roth and and read the Wikipedia article Roth IRA. It describes the differences between the Roth, The IRA and the traditional IRA. Also the requirements and a variety of other information. My head is still spinning.

The US and UK dealt with Roth IRAs, and their tax exemption aspect, by the following. Thus, the difference between Traditional and Roth IRAs is dealt with in the US-UK DTA. Nothing (yet) in Thai-US DTA similar to this. But a protocol handshake between "competent authorities" dealing with DTAs (Ministry of Finance rep, US Treasury Dept rep) could rectify this.

Quote

However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the State in which the pension scheme is established if the recipient were a resident of that State. Thus, for example, a distribution from a U.S. "Roth IRA" to a U.K. resident would be exempt from tax in the United Kingdom to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in the United States.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-UK-Protocol-TE-7-22-2002.pdf

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

If Roths are accessable then there would no doubt that traditional IRAs would be as well. 

I think you have things backwards.... Traditional IRAs are assessable per the DTA. Roth IRAs -- not mentioned in the DTA -- are a completely different breed of animal, so there "would be doubt" as to their assessability in comparison to a traditional IRA. (See my response to potless, below.)

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Again, the information I have is that TRD sees both Roth and Traditional as accessable pension income

TRD actually used the phrase "Roth IRA" when they defined assessable income?

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Both are accessable pension income if remitted to Thailand. 

Roth IRAs came about in 1998. The Thai-US DTA was signed in Nov 1996. There is no mention of Roth IRAs in the DTA, of course, and no subsequent protocols to address them. How, then, you decide to treat them, especially in light of Por 162, might not be too difficult to do.

45 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Imagine the TRD heads exploding when trying to consider accounting for a pre-tax contribution IRA converted to a post-tax Roth!

You made my day! Keep up the super excellent analysis.

16 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

they always remit the entire proceeds, but he did state that you cannot separate capital from gain.  If you remit partial amount of the sale, it's a percentage of capital and gain.

Actually, if it's only a partial remittance, you can use FIFO to break out principal from gain. If on dec 31 2023 a stock your purchased for $10000 with pre 2024 income was worth $15000 -- and you remitted only $10000 in later years to Thailand -- then there is no assessable income for Thai tax purposes -- per FIFO.

Samo samo gold bar purchased with that same pre 2024 $10000 -- only remit $10000 to Thailand, after you sell gold bar for a gain, or a loss -- no assessable income.

Samo samo Rembrandt painting. Remit only what you paid for it with pre 2024 income, no assessable remittance involved.

Etc. Investments made with pre 2024 income, later sold and cash sent to Thailand, in an amount not exceeding the original cost of investment -- is not taxable by Thailand, per Por 162:

Quote

Order No. Por.162/2566, issued on November 20, 2023, provides further clarification. It states that the new interpretation should not apply to foreign-sourced income earned before January 1, 2024.

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

As far as the exemption of funds on December 31, 2023:

 

"ONLY CAPITAL FOR BANK ACCOUNTS OR CASH ACCOUNTS" 

OK, I'll drop arguing about IRAs. But, I'll still use my own logic in interpreting Por 162 when I file (or don't file) my Thai taxes. I think the effect of Por 162 is still sorting out.... For example:

What about the near-liquid money market account and the CDs I had on Dec 31 2023? Their value on that date, converted to cash and wired to Thailand post 2023 -- would logically fall under Por 162 (in my mind, anyway). But the guidance from the Webinar, about "only capital for bank accounts or cash accounts" -- seems to not allow this. However, I bet if you asked someone with decision making authority -- and a brain -- at TRD about this, they would not restrict Por 162 to "bank accounts or cash accounts." I'll throw in, "what about the money in my mattress on Dec 31 2023?"

Anyway, when specifics aren't (yet) codified, take the road that's to your advantage. In the minuscule chance you're audited -- if you have a sound, non frivolous argument, as in the above -- worst that can happen, I believe, would be back taxes plus interest. Worth it, IMO.

1 hour ago, Keep Right said:

No way am I going to inform the U.S. of my bank in Thailand.

You tell 'em. First, let's assume you're an honest US Citizen, so you declare your Thai interest from your Thai bank account on your annual US tax filing. Let's say your average amount in the bank is $25000 (850k bt). Based on what Bangkok Bank paid me last year on my savings account interest (.40%) -- that would be $100 in annual interest income to report on my US 1040 tax return. So, that's what you report on Schedule B of the 1040. Or, you don't, 'cause you have no taxable income (standard deduction greater than gross income). Or you don't, 'cause you're dishonest. In any of these situations, it won't matter that Uncle Sam knows you have a Thai bank account, because under FATCA, there's no reporting on aggregated accounts under $50000 at year end ($75000 any time during the year), so in my example, nothing about your account will be forwarded to the US.

But, of course, if you have well over $50000 in Thai bank accounts, and you don't report the interest on these on your US tax filing -- that's why FATCA came about. So, yeah, if you're a tax evader, best not give your SSN to the Thai bank. But, if honest, what's the big deal....?

1 hour ago, WingNut said:

I don't know what your second question refers to exactly, but I didn't find any of her subordinates to be clueless. 

I guess I misinterpreted this:

Quote

The woman who accepted my tax filing also showed no interest in reviewing my attached documents in general. She only asked what they were and why I was submitting them

Sounds clueless to me.

18 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

and now file tax (15 minutes online + bank letter).

So, a bank letter is also required with electronic filing? And this bank letter is what -- your Thai bank's report of all annual remittances received? (That's probably been reported somewhere, but I must have missed it.)

14 hours ago, WingNut said:

The woman who accepted my tax filing also showed no interest in reviewing my attached documents in general. She only asked what they were and why I was submitting them

14 hours ago, WingNut said:

The head of the department responsible for assisting with tax form preparation had specifically advised to me prior that submitting a tax return without any supporting documents, just a single income figure on the form, is not recommended as it could raise questions.

I'm a little confused.... Did you voluntarily submit supporting documents/bank statements -- or was this a requirement of this office? Did you advise the head of the dept that his subordinates didn't have a clue....?