JimGant

You really are certifiable. Pistols or swords?

Right. Now can anyone answer my question on being able to mail to TRD my self assessed hard copy tax return -- or, if not, drop it off at the front door of TRD, without any further discussion. Thanx.

Why not just fill in the PND 91with the applicable assessable income, less any stipulated deductions and allowances, and then arrive at tax owed, or not. Then hand it in, or mail it. Why march off to the TRD office with a pile of DTA explanations and numbers, etc? Isn't self-assessment good enough? Then, if TRD has follow up questions, they'll contact you? I don't need to file a tax return this year, but if I did, I'd try to file electronically -- but if not available in English, I'd fill out a hard copy and mail it in (is that allowed?). Or is there some requirement that, not going electronically, I have to go to my local TRD and go over my return with an agent, line for line, plus hand in some supporting documentation (what might that be -- I've heard a bank statement -- is that gospel?). All very confusing, especially if self-assessment is the current guidance. And if filing electronically supports this guidance....

Hire another 50,000 agents, versed in 61 different DTAs, and paid several millions of baht per year - to collect, if lucky, maybe 1% of the cost from interviews with 300,000 farangs? Don't think so.

You're probably right. I just wonder how they phrased their hypothesis on pre 2024 income -- and was the person they consulted at TRD in a decision making position -- and/or was there something in writing presented? I suppose we'll never know. I guess if a few other tax hand holding organizations came to back up Expatthaitax, I might change my beliefs. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any doubts about not declaring IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return -- as my position is certainly not a fraudulent position, but is certainly a logical argument based on the Por 162 language. I rest my case -- unless further information becomes available.

Not argue with TRD, but discuss with Expatthaitax why they say you can't put your IRA withdrawals in the pre 2024 income basket. Hopefully, you could do that for free, by signing up for the 15 minute dialogue with them, as advertised by their website. Certainly that could give you a 'warm fuzzy,' -- or not -- about having to declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return. Worth the effort, for sure. Meanwhile, I'll just go by the following, in digesting any advice from Expatthaitax:

So, then -- why would anyone of sound mind waste their time, and shoe leather, to get a TIN -- and to file when no taxes owed, but their assessable income exceeded the 60/120/220k thresholds.....and, then, to subsequently now be on the TRD's radar....? Madness.

And they certainly don't have the resources -- nor would a cost/benefit analysis ever give them the resources -- to query every expat. Best they can do is, have random compliance audits, based on: expats here for over 180 days, and who have remittances exceeding some high amount. This they could probably do with relatively simple data mining of immigration and banks. And, I wouldn't even hold my breath for this scenario. Self-assess with integrity -- and don't worry about your golf game being interupted by the TRD. Relax.

Ah, music to my ears -- in this otherwise ludicrous thread. Thanx, old wise cpu.

Did they explain how they came to their conclusion? After all, Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, whether it's in a bank account, in your mattress, or in your IRA, which prima facie labels all funds in that IRA as pre 2024 income (from wages, and annual reinvestments of income earned within that IRA -- except, of course, post 2023 reinvestments, which can be dealt with by FIFO, as withdrawals occur.) Anyway, Jingthing, you seem to think Expatthai's NO NO NO is the all-defining answer to this question. Why wouldn't you be more curious on how they arrived at their conclusion -- especially since it seems you'll blindly follow their advise, declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return, and (maybe) pay Thai taxes on them? But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

No, assessable income of 59k baht means, if you're single, you're not required to file a tax return. What's with your comprehension problem?

If the DTA gives Thailand exclusive, or primary, taxation rights on certain income -- like a private pension -- then to avoid double taxation, the US must absorb a tax credit. And, it could be a one for one credit -- if the US tax on the identical income is at least as much as the Thai tax on same income. If not, the credit could only be up to what the US tax was on that income. There are some other qualifiers in taking this tax credit, which the instructions to Form 1116 explain (and better explained in Schedule 514). One of these is ratio of Thai taxable income to US taxable income: But, should you be unable to claim the total tax credit due, because of this ratio, then you can carry back one year the credit (filing an amended US tax return), or carry forward for ten years. Another quirk is that the US Tax Code only allows foreign tax credits on foreign income also taxed by the US. But, of course, a US private pension is not foreign income. Hmmm. To get around that, you have to trump the Tax Code with Tax Treaty language -- and this you do with Form 8833, allowing US source income to be treated as foreign income, for tax credit purposes. It wouldn't. A tax credit can only be granted against US tax paid on the same income taxed by the foreign country. A Roth, of course, has no equivalent US tax to bounce a credit off of. [Roth is a whole new problem, not addressed in the US-Thai DTA. The US got around this with the UK by a protocol to the DTA dictating that US tax exempt monies, like a Roth, have to be treated the same by the UK, i.e., tax exempt. Would we see such a protocol with US-Thai DTA? Probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, memorize Por 162, that says pre 2024 income -- which a Roth consists of -- is not taxable when brought into Thailand. Jury still out on this, as one tax firm -- Expatthai tax -- insists pre 2024 income can only be from a bank account. Baloney, I say. Just wonder what the official TRD position is.........]

Well, yeah: -- Hello, Thai guy -- we've got a guy on this forum who believes, when you mentioned that US Social Security was assessable income, that, well, that was the end of the matter. -- No, I further went on to mention that, because of the DTA, US Social Security was labelled as "exclusive" to US taxation authority. Thus, because of this clause in the DTA, US Social Security was no longer considered assessable income for Thai tax purposes. -- But, this bozo on the forum insists that, in spite of the DTA language making Social Security non assessable, that it is ASSESSABLE. What do you make of that? -- Call the guys with the white coats.

Geez, we've been over that ad nauseam: -- Assessable income = taxable income -- Not assessable income = non assessable income -- Non assessable income = not taxable income -- Not taxable income = exempt income -- The Cyclist = screw loose

Your nuts! He uses US Social Security as an example of exclusive income, per DTA, taxable only in the US. Yes, he at first says it's "assessable income" -- but then says, per the DTA, it is, because of the exclusive language in the DTA, taxable only in the US. Thus, IPSO FACTO, it is non assessable income for Thai taxation purposes.

Nothing he says about US Social Security supports your assertions.

That is so absurd that I'm finally convinced you have a maniacal chuckle when you post, knowing you're pulling our chains and driving us nuts.

You've got my curiosity up... What was the difference between her figures and deduction/allowance categories -- and yours? Thanx.

Well, before Por 161, out year remittances weren't considered income for taxation purposes. The 10 year audit window was, then, to monitor income from within Thailand. I think I might feel fairly secure that once my income had been processed by my home country tax service -- in my case, the IRS -- I could consider it savings. And, I'd probably self-assess on that basis. But, I certainly wouldn't welcome the chance to explain this to an auditor.... Nevertheless, this is another gray area among many in this new world of Thai taxation -- and with any gray area, you take the fork in the road that is to your advantage.

Jingthing, we'll never agree on this -- so I guess you'll pay taxes on any remittances from your IRA, and I won't. And, should I ever be audited, I'll flash the Por 162 definition: All the money in my Traditional IRA was foreign sourced income. Most were the original income deposits several decades ago. Subsequently, as the IRA was in securities, every year unrealized capital gains were "realized," i.e., became income. However, as they were in an IRA, they were reinvested. Thus, as of Dec 31, 2023 -- my IRA consisted totally of foreign sourced income -- which is what Por 162 is about. I know Expatthai tax says, nope, that income must be in a bank account to qualify for Por 162 exemption. Don't know where they got that from -- maybe at a cocktail party with TRD agents. But their say-so ain't good enough for me. So, any other agencies out there, that you've heard of, saying the same thing about only bank accounts? I would think, if you plan to pay taxes to Thailand on your remitted IRA proceeds, that you would get some reassurance from Expatthai tax. Would love to hear their side of this story.

This is called co-signatory, and I have it with my wife on my Bangkok Bank savings account. And, yes, her name only visible under black light, so no 'joint account' aspect to queer Immigration. Also, we've online banking, and that would be her first avenue to draining my account upon death. Co-signatory is backup, where she could walz into the bank, with my passbook, and drain my account. Supposedly not above board if I'm dead -- but bank doesn't get reports of client deaths. And, since wife is sole heir in my Will, no aggrieved party to squawk. Fait accompli comes to mind. Probation reportedly starts at 50,000bt, and takes many months. Certainly not worth it for a bank account, so backdoor procedures seem the way to go. Even our bank manager gave us a wink, wink on this procedure -- having no love for the lawyer mafia presumably. Again, who's going to file a claim, if wife is sole heir and executor in my Will..... Co-signatory also a good policy, should you be flat on your back in a coma.

That's the best question asked on this forum in ages. Say your rental income from 2024 rests in your bank account until 2030, when you, as a Thai tax resident, finally remit it to Thailand. How will it be treated? Bounce that off of the following: This says, yeah, when remitted to Thailand in 2030, it has to be declared as income. That's bonkers! How about remitted in 2045? At some point income transitions into savings. And I would suggest that point is when subject income has gone through your home country tax process, either to be taxed, to not be taxed, or to be determined as tax exempt. After which, it is no longer income. Would TRD buy that? Dunno. Of course, the same logic could be applied to: 2024 rental income being declared when you file your home country taxes in 2025. Then, after it's gone through this home country tax process, it becomes savings. And, as such, if you then remit it to Thailand after doing your home country taxes, it is, as savings, no longer taxable by Thailand. This might be a stretch, as far as TRD is concerned. But what exactly is the difference in this scenario between after tax rental income in home country bank account, after home country tax return accomplished in 2025 -- and same scenario, but now in 2045? So, yeah -- big question -- when does income transform into savings? Hmmmm.

Are you serious? Nobody can tell you anything.

His last sentence is dead wrong, where he says: Taxability of a wire transfer depends on "the underlying purpose of the funds being transferred." Nonsense. Taxability depends on the nature of the funds transferred, whether income or not -- and if income, whether or not Thailand considers it assessable (taxable) income. Shame on you, Benjamin. You're beginning to sound like Thomas Carden.