FatherF

No, people have been punished without being proven guilty, thus it is bad law (in a society that claims that one is innocent until proven otherwise). Personally (and I've stated this many times), I'm in favour of vote fraud being punishable by a lengthier ban - perhaps for life - as well as jail, so please don't try and twist my argument to say that I'm arguing for politicians to escape fraud. You simply shouldn't be punished because, "it's impossible to ascertain which party member or exucutive was aware of the fraud" or, "it's impractical". Critics of the PPP should focus on some of the amendments that would have weakened some of the other checks and balances, not imply that they were trying to legalise fraud.

Actually it might be interesting to see how an equivalent crime is dealt with in other countries, not something I've looked at.

If the penalty for vote fraud were expulsion for the Whole party for, lets say 5 years, would that not make the parties themselves better structured? More careful who they had acting on their behalf? and, more importantly more accountable?

FF

Surely such law enforcement / punishment measures are an internal Thai affair. No nation on earth would tolerate being told by another how to carry out internal law enforcement.

There are two issues here, one of the security of the airport itself and the other on security inside the airport perimeter.

The former has to be addressed by the Thai police force and, if necessary, the army. Hereby lies the rub. Neither force is necessarily behoven to the government of the day. Until that issue is resolved, and that means total separation of the government and politicians in general from the internal working of the forces, Thailand will continue to be jerked around by various self interest groups. Today it is PAD, tomorrow ABC, next day TIT and so it goes on. But of course Thailand's government is predominantly ex forces personnel and their chums left behind in uniform expect a little consideration in terms of promotion etc.

The latter is another issue altogether and is, in a sense, more important. But that's off topic in this thread.

I believe that the fact that swampy is an International airport would mean that anyone could expect. nae, demand, international standards regarding security implementation.

This is not just about tourism, (which will be badly affected) but also about existing and potential business coming to Thailand, if the principal officers of a business feel that as a result of a severe lack of security in a given countries international airport, then they must assume that outside of the airport will be even more unruley, and therfore pose a potential threat to any/all of the companies employees, and in these days of a litigation society, no company in their right minds would endorse opening an office/plant in such a place.

If Thailand wish to encourage tourism and other business to this wonderful Kingdom, they really must take adequate steps to ensure there is no reccurance, and, be seen publicaly (on the world stage) to be doing so.

FF

Happy birthday! Long live the King!

Heavy damage, valuables missing as protesters leave Govt House

Key PAD leaders have proposed that the government withdraw trespassing charges filed with police and to prepare a joint agreement that neither civil nor criminal charges would be taken against the protesters, said Mr. Nathi.

The proposals have been forwarded to Mr. Chavarat, he added, but the government is expected to proceed with the charges.

-- TNA 2008-12-04

I'm sure they did ask for the charges to be dropped, along with any arising from the two airport occupancies.

FF

"In the next few weeks we (foreign operators) are going to be getting together and making a stand," one industry insider said. "Things absolutely have to change."

"This situation cannot go on. If a major event takes place now, we will never be able to say we didn't see it coming, that we couldn't prepare."

Can the the foreigners group together and tell the Thai what to do? I don't think so. It Farang don't like how things is done in Thailand, Farang are welcome to leave. Don't try to be a master in other's home. Farang is just a guest here.

Well, while "Farang may only be guest here" they do happen to play a somewhat important role the the economy of Thailand, especially with regard to tourism. The passage you quote is part of a bigger article relating to the worries and fears of foreign airlines who have serious concerns for their staffs welfare and safety.

It may be worth your while to actually read and absorb what is being expressed in the article before you start throwing your toys from your pram!

FF

Thought readers might like to see this breaking story from UK which really shows what other countries are saying about the Thai airport chaos

Concern mounts over Thai airport security lapses

2 hours 2 mins ago

As Thai authorities race to get Suvarnabhumi airport ready for full international operations, airline officials and diplomats fear major security concerns are being overlooked. ............................................

A very damning and far reaching article, well done PAD!

FF

Good luck Thai Air! I wonder if other airlines will follow suit?

FF

Hi Everyone,

I've been watching these threads over the past few days and enjoyed seeing everyone's opinions on what has been happening.

I'm worried though as I have a flight to BKK on Monday (8th December) that is due to land at BKK on Tuesday 9th December. It is with Etihad Airways.

Can anyone give me your opinion on whether or not you think it will go ahead or not? I'd still really like to visit Thailand despite all that has gone on.

My travel agent has said that they won't know until at least Friday whether or not it has been cancelled or not.

Thanks,

Jon.

I think you will be ok Jon.

Have a great time.

FF

grazie David

yes this is exatly what i would like to do, i'm looking forward ...

Well my flight is with qatar and i can cancell it till the first day before leaving. I think i will continue to read, hoping the best for Thailand.

thank you

g

Hi Giovanna, I am sure you will be ok for travel by then, I am flying from UK to Chiang Mai on 23/12 and back on 02/01 and I believe it wont be a problem. Just keep your wits about you, as you would traveling in any foreign country, and you will have a lovely time in a wonderful country.

The recent problems arise from internal politics, the Thai people are very friendly, and i don't believe will involve (on purpose) any visitors.

have a great time.

FF

Just looked on BKK arrivals/Departures, they recon flights are all good! ha ha ha TiT

FF

http://www.bangkokairportonline.com/node/129

According to TNN seems like the vast majority of the PAD will be vacating Suvarnabhumi at 10am tomorrow.

NBT reporting the same. So... let me get this straight. What happened today was already planed for a while correct? And it was expected that they would disolve the party this whole time correct? So, not that I'm sad the protestors are leaving, but what exactly did they accomplish by creating all the problems? I mean, was the verdict giong to go a different way had they not taken over Suvarnabhumi? Was it because of the takeover that they are guilty and now forced out of office?

Just seems like a waste if its like I'm understanding and PPP was giong to be disolved anyway. i.e. alot of people suffered for nothing. Someone correct me if I understand things incorrectly.

-Jim

I think you have got it about spot on there Jim.

FF

Suvarnabhumi airport to resume service soon : PAD and AOT

By The Nation

Suvarnabhumi International Airport will resume its service as soon as technical officials examined functional and operational system, joint panel between People's Alliance for Democracy and the Airports Authority of Thailand.

The panel set up to solve the airport crisis is attended by PAD's co-leader Somkiart Pongpaiboon, AOT's president Wutthipun Wichairat and AOT's advisor to the president ACM Kittisak Ratprasert.

Somkiat said that the meeting agreed that all flights in and out the airport will be resumed as normal. PAD which has seized the airport since last week will divide channels and space for passengers from the protesters.

The panel will examine assets inside and outside the airport to check if there was any damage before returning the areas to AOT.

Somkiat said he could not say for now when officially the airport will resume the service because he has to talk with other PAD's co-leaders.

Meanwhile Wutthipun said that AOT will jointly inspect the readiness of the airport with PAD as soon as possible.

"I think that Suvarnabhumi Airport will be able to be re-opened within 24 hours," he said. Referring to checkpoints set up by PAD at the entrances of the airport, AOT and PAD will jointly conduct the screening of passengers into the airport.

"First priority of the work is to clean all the passengers' buildings and to remove tones of garbages from the areas," he said.

Meanwhile an informed source said AOT told PAD that the airport should be resumed the service on December 3.

Good news but what right do the PAD also screening passengers?

Totaly agree, what right do the PAD have to "Screen" any passenger? will they be checking to see if anyone is wearing red underwear?

Also, since when has the PAD been approved by anyone to be able to decide weather an international airport is ready for full operations?

FF

Thailand has no government or PM and Bangkok has no governor.

What will happen to us now with no one to tell us what to do.

Thailand truly has become like "heaven on earth" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a caretaker PM, and the cabinet hasn't yet resigned.

There is an acting Bangkok Governor.

As it would appear that there is now a (albiet caretaker) PM, isn't it time to enforce the SOE regarding the airports?

FF

I have just heard on the BBC that the PAD have said "they will not leave either airport, until they are happy with a new government".

Could be a long haul....... and i don't mean flight! lets see what happens on the 5th.

FF

The business leaders of Thailand will be expected to absorb the financial problems from the seizure of Thailand's main airport.

After suffering losses over the years, from problems relating to bird flu, SARS, then the horrific tsunami, businesses large and small are now reeling from this latest unnecessary financial loss

People like me, both foreign and Thai will be expected to pay wages and costs, even though our income is drying up. Furthermore we shall be expected to compensate our clients, even though we are not at fault.

My Thai staff will expect to be paid and also expect to keep their jobs – it's also not their fault!

What should we business people do?

I love Thailand and its people and do my best to respect the country and its culture, I have also offered significant personal financial support ( especially after the tsunami ) and investment over the years and more planned...... now for the first time I am beginning to think if I have made a mistake over the last 10 years....

I am not the only person wondering about Thailand in this way …..

Yes I know this will pass – and I realize we have to be patient, but this is a man made disaster and not a natural disaster and therefore, could have been avoided

There is no longer any rule of law in Thailand, the Government is being ignored, and this does not furnish foreign investors with any confidence at all, indeed we are on the brink of a coup, military or de-facto – it's the same

Never mind the reasons for the occupation of the airports, there are courts who should decide who is at fault, and once groups and thugs start taking things into their own hands, from whichever side, then we all lose – but Thailand loses most.

The occupation of the main airports is illegal and has ruined Thailand in many peoples eyes and the damage to the economy and the reputation of Thailand is staggering ………… and to top all of this off with a coup, Military or otherwise, will just bury us all 10 feet lower than we are already

Well Said!

FF

I think it can cope.

Are you sure? 45 million sounds like an impressive number, but divide by 24, then by 365 and your down to 5000. So while 30 000 people might not be a problem on a functional airport, dont forget that for a place like that to work you have thousands of workers cleaning and fixing the thousands of small and big problems arriving. The garbage have to be transported away, ask Napoli what happens if you dont...

so thats 5136 per hour!24 hours /7 days a week /365 all year yep think it up to it/

I wonder how many people are still waiting to get through immigration?

FF

I would be surprised if there is any country with a big rural population that works as a democracy, if you want a democracy in Thailand you are going to have build up the middle class and if that means not having a full democracy in the meantime thats the way it is

HA ha ha,

so, just so i understand what you are saying here! You want to pick & choose the bits you want in your "Democracy" so, if you dont like the look of it it is not allowed?

Think before you post!

FF

I am not sure that any good will arise from this on-going idiocy, however, at least here on T.V. people from all sides are doing something that those in power (or trying to be) have not done!!!!. We are TALKING and, in a lot of cases either agreeing to differ, or accepting some degree of liability, WOW! almost sounds like a democracy! Now, if we can just get this message to ............................................................

FF

LOL

you can read all over that people have spoken out against violence. The PAD is a group of protesters ... As for violent actions this week, it sucks that some PAD guards shot at people when they were attacked. It doesn't suck that they made some police run away. It doesn't suck that someone was detained and released. It would suck if a person were held hostage. It sucks that so many banned members are creating new names. It doesn't suck when they get banned again

Really because the video I saw of PAD shooting does not show any one shooting at them, attacking them... nope just PAD shooting...

LOL ... Cool! so you disregard all the reports about the events unless ...

So you're saying they were provoked.

Shooting back at someone is peaceful protest?

Oh dear.

Self-Defense is absolutely justified ... 'shooting back at someone' is self defense (in this case I hope they arrest the guys in that group and see if there is enough to put them on trial for assault with intent ...)

This does not change the fact that the PAD are peaceful and have shown great restraint. What is appalling though is the lack of condemnation on here about the grenade attacks, deaths caused by the police, etc!

Please remind me, who shot at the PAD guy? I seem to recall it was........................ er NOBODY shot at him!

FF

Just seen this on SKY News,

"Anti-government protesters in Thailand have taken a police officer captive as tensions at an airport standoff escalate."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-New...kpoint_Tensions

Now what happens?

FF

Oh yes ! Union strikes shutting down airports are common all over Europe. Preferably during the peak holiday season, to give their demand more power. Rings a bell?

Yes, it's normally French Air Traffick Control!

FF

Any news on what's happening ?

Not too much to be honest! People are still arguing pro/anti PAD, pro/anti PPP, pro/anti Thaksin etc etc,

Oh! and the band at the airport are on a break!

FF

On TOC they have a guitarist singer entetrtaining the reasonably big looking crowwd at Suvarnaphumi. It is surreal. I still dont figure M16s in all of this. That is just not the way it is done. There are also lots of women in the crowd.

I think there was a band playing too, right before the Titanic sunk.

Let's hope.

I think it kept on playing "as it sank"..........

FF

On TOC they have a guitarist singer entetrtaining the reasonably big looking crowwd at Suvarnaphumi. It is surreal. I still dont figure M16s in all of this. That is just not the way it is done. There are also lots of women in the crowd.

I'm watching that my self! Unbelievable! I'm sure they're singing "Don't Don't stop the Carnival"

Whilst I am in no way a supporter of either side in this idiotic state of affairs, it would seem to me that the PAD have not helped their “cause” by their own actions, whilst they may be in the belief (rightly or wrongly) that the PM is a meer puppet, the place to argue this point is on the floor of parliament, and not in the arrivals/departure halls of airports.

If the PAD have such strong feelings, they should form a real party, have proper representation in parliament, with some clear propositions as to how they would run the country, then, and only then, will their supporters have real power!

Via the Ballot Box.

This is how real democracy works, it may take years to see the real results, but, the for the power of government to change hands, it can only be done (in a real democracy) via the people voting for what they believe in.

There will ALWAYS be corruption in politics, that, I’m afraid is a fact of life, but even taking into account allegations of vote buying, and (alleged) paid protestors, in order for democracy to work and grow in Thailand, a certain amount of respect must be given to the oppositions beliefs and actions, until such time as enough people of similar thinking can make a difference via the political process (the Ballot Box) and not by dissrupting thousands of every day people’s and tourists lives.

Flame away!

FF