Foreverford

Dr Treelove has posted a good article on Humates and it is very interesting and he believes that we may be able to get some sources of this from the products or by-products (?) of the mining of lignite. If anyone knows about lignite up north or anywhere in Thailand could you please post it so we can follow up? thanks FF

Yo Bro I hope I can get it together to meet up in a few months. Unbelieveable about your source in Half Moon Bay is that "Romeo" by any chance. Keep up the good work I'm sure old man McClenahan would be plenty proud. me

<br />Hey Ford man, thanks for your note.  It is wierd weather here in the SF area, no summer yet.  In fact my Thai wife is with me now and she is bundling up in the mornings with her arctic expedition gear, and we've got rain in June, snowing at lake Tahoe, and a tornado warning in Chico.<br /><br />Yeah those Austraahlians think of everything. (We're importing huge quantities of a phosphonate compound from Queensland for control of 'Sudden Oak Death')  But is there a source for humate ore in Thailand? is one thing I was hoping to find out with my post; other than the long road of getting organic matter content up and waiting for the process that creates humic and fulvic acids and all their benefits.  <br /><br />I have soil samples in route to my new imporoved lab and soil scientist resources here (Logan Labs and Michael Astera of soilminerals.com), from two farms in Chiang Mai, including Jeff's organic educational center 'Fair Earth Farm'.  So we are scouting for local Thai sources for soil amendment materials that may be recommended for the prescription amendments.  Ag lime for Calcium,  rock phosphate and other common mineral sources are easy enough to find, but the detailed analysis and prescriptions that I am getting back now for landscpapes I am working with here, include humates, Azomite or glacial rock dust for trace elements, copper sulphate, zinc sulphate, borax for Boron, and sea salt or Redmond mineral salt for sodium if found deficient.  I have a fertilizer company in Half Moon Bay that I can call in an order and they acquire all components, blend and bag and deliver to the site.  How beautiful is that?  And cost efficient when labor and fuel is so high. <br /><br />Lignite is mined in northern Thailand and that may be a source for 'leonardite' humate ore.  I hope someone there will check it out as well as other potential sources to discover.  <br /><br />BTW, no tractor work lately here other than moving big wood craned out from tree removals with a Cat skid-steer on rubber tracks w/ grapple bucket, but you may be happy to hear that I'm driving a Ford Exploder. don<br />

HUMATES and other great products from a great source

http://www.nutri-tec...ate-phenomenon/

thanks Dr Treelove

Hi folks

Wet enough to surf here in the UK today !! so thats what I've been doing.Some quite interesting info on organic fertiliser and foliar feed here link

cheers for now J

That's a good link to a great company with lots of information and interesting, useful products: Peaceful Valley Farm Supply at www.groworganic.com I've visited their nursery in the Grass Valley area of the beautiful foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Get their hard copy catalog if you can and it will keep you busy for hours studying all the cool stuff and useful tips; it's a learning experience in itself. Don

Hey Doc what's happenin'? Are you still Thailand? I remember reading a thing in the Post that makes me think your footloose if not fancy free or such. Anywho those folks have been around from before the wheel I think but I remember them from the 70's, a great source.

Here's some new info posted on our mother link and I'm sure we'll get some response on this one as it appears to look quite promising. Farm with Fords

Hey Doc how's it going still heard that it has been very cool out your way. Good to see you got back here with some info that everybody can use. What a great site those folks have. I can't believe that noone has responded to your post this group has really gone south and needs a big dose of Jandtaa again but where may he be. Been very very busy here as the La Nina has hit like they said and we have had a big bunch of heavy rain here at the Buriram Surin border that has been causing a bit of problems but any water is good water at this point for most.

We planted about 150 takuu trees and have sun hemp growing all around them. they say that it is a harvestable hardwood that can be used in 5 yeatrs. Fruity had some three year old that were very tall with no lateral branching. A very good woodworker says that he is knowledgeable of them from working down south and says that in ten years the trunks will be the size of your torso and it is excellent wood. They are a bit difficult to transplant and droop considerable after plaqnting from their containers. I pulled out most of the trees that the tips died back as I felt that even a pruned specimen that only had one main trunk would still give me stress wood for lumber in the future. I don't know if I was right but didn't want to take the chance 10 years down the road. Hope to plant 25- 50 a year in the future to take care of lumber needs for many generations.

You've got to love Nutri-tec and all their info and products. I have a friend in the turfgraass business here and he gets regular shipments from Australia and i will see if he will be available to bring in some of their products for me. Thanks for a great resource and still not abandoning the few of us here that can benefit from your good information. Not too much time for the internet at the moment but still am managing to keep the old Ford moving though I've got the Dozer blade (made a beautiful adaptor to turn it into an angle blade that really makes road building and levee building a dream) chained up at the moment and nursing a bad wheel bearing until the major work is finished. get a couple kilos of road in and the rains wash it away the next day but battle back and getting the upper hand. I know the control valve is a small issue with the blade and hope to fix it soon. Wheel bearing is being limped on and retightened regularly as the spindle is buggered and will need to be welded up and then turned down or replaced as may be needed.

One good one and i go..... Had some major problems with the power steering controller so tore it apart and after changing a few parts all was good until something else in it went bad and started to leak deeper and more difficult to get to. So decided tha since it was time to get the roads in between roaring torrential downpoars aand the need to get the rice in also I opted for a funnel and a few jugs of hyd fluid since a new one was near 20k baht and I didn't wnat to do that or take it apart and not be able to fix it and be broke down. Well after a lot of time and effort and a bunch of off and on the tractor for a few days i finally saw the end of the tunnel and was dam_n near done (sometinmes rolling tinto the barn without nearly any fluid and armstronging my way home. Well there was the light and I was finished and it was a 8 kilometer run from the big farm near the warring zone of last month near the Cambodia border and boom (no not artillary) but the skies opening up and pourring down and I was just finished putting the rice in but low on fluid and no way to make it home. I grabbed the half full 5 gallon bucket jumped off the tractor (well maybe i jumped first) and popped the cap off the filler for the fluid and without the funnel in the downpour just tipped up the barrel and poured hydraulic fluid straight into the reservoir and anywhere else it wanted to go when it was good and overflowwing I figured all was good buttonned it up and hoped the lightning wouldn't get me on the way back. Soaked like a rat i was. All is good good buddy and maybe we should try to get together when i get back your way in a couple months I hope all is well. peace and love me PS A 900 baht kit and a few days later and no more leaks and you can steer it with your baby finger that Ford is Forever

Harvest time coming up in a few weeks, middleman price will probably drop down to the 10 to 11 baht/kilo range for polished, while retail will be 15 baht upward. Just a forecast on my part.

This is not one crop rice that you are talking about, this is irrigated multi-crop rice that is not too common in Issan but the norm on and about the main basins of the Chao Praya and it tributaries. This generally is not Hom Mali and gets a much lower price. My earlier prices are for paddy rice for Hom Mali. You generally lose about 40% after cleaning and polishing with paddy to get "polished" rice.

12.80 baht per kilo in Kap Choeng. (Surin)

Almost 19 at times last year (2009 for Hom Mali) so let's do the math. My f-i-law was guaranteed before it grew that he would get 17 baht from the govt loan scheme. Many lost their first planting to the earlier drought and then if had the money were wiped out on their second planting due to the floods. the ones that got a crop didn't get good a good harvest and then after all that these ridiculous prices. Fooled and Floundering on a Ford Forever

Ready for planting sugar cane. This was done with an ancient 6610 Ford.

Fabulous on that Ancient Ford Forever

Panoramic picture to get whole thing in.

Look all the way to the right, a third of the way down. See a tree with a round canopy.

The pond was there.

The road we drove on and the house are in the cluster of threes all the way behind the round canopy tree.

Best

I see it now. A bit of an optical illusion (or for me an obstacle delusion) as it looked downhill looking at the photo.

Looks real good is this taken from just below where the lake was? Choke Dee and still a Ford For me

Try CMT in Thailand they have a website and have the old fashion pull behind manure spreaders with belt and flailers to break and disperse. The old ones weren't PTO driven just geared off of one of the wheels to dump with the belt. I don't think these are PTO driven either but have a look. choke Dee and a Ford for me

Hi Foreverford

It is never desirable to pump the same water twice,

because each time you lose the efficiency drop of the pump.

By simplified example:

Let's say that each pump has a 75% energy efficiency.

The first pump applies only 0.75 of the energy put into it toward pumping water.

The second pump then does the same,

so that the energy loss multiplies, not adds

Let's say 100 energy units are required to lift the water,

One Pump requires 100 / 0.75 => 133 Pump Energy units required to Lift

This is unavoidable...no pump is without efficiency loss.

Using Two Pumps requires 100 / 0.75 / 0.75 => 178 Pump Energy Units

The difference between 178 and 133 is unnecessary waste.

If for some reason it is unavoidable, then we do what we must,

but don't voluntarily use two pumps to do one job.

Got ya precipice of H20. i always look at water as nearly gold so want to hoarde it and always feel wealthy with a tankful. If the flow you need is available from your sumersible or jet at your well then pump man pump but if you need a higher volume or pressure then a tank and another pump is necessary. If possible an unused fire pumpo with some high flow is a great thing to have attached to your tank along with your irrigation pump. i saved nearly a half of grand annually with my fire insurance with that set up on my farm in monterey (a 7.5 hp with two 2 1/2 " fire dept connections. I hope to have my irrigation pump plumbed to my lake so it allows many possibilities though i also have different pipes and valves to allow gravity feed from my lake and water tanks which are supplied by the well. right now it's been gasline pumps and now a couple of tiny electric ones but slowly and surely til i can lay in some big HDPE pipe. choke Dee Pumping on a Ford Forever

well hey you old son of a smith I' d sure like to find a few of those sprigs for 50 baht or so. Where are they available for that price? What areas are they common in? Down south? Chumpon? I'm a machine gun of ?'s today. Thanks From a Ford Forever

I purchased one small seedling ( not a sprig or cutting) for 1000 baht. So if i end up have ing a thousand of these cuttings and sell them at half price of 500 baht I'm going to build a train track to Paris to deliver fresh frog legs. I still paid a full 100 baht for another half dozen smaller varieties the smaller were supposed to be about the size of my thigh. the 1000 baht is as big as the trunk of my body. Choke dee with the Bamboo I think it has to be everyone's cash crop along with mangoes and coconuts. You can't killl these things and they are always a source of self sufficiency or income. Eat or sell or grow another tree with dat coco nutt. Bamboozeled on a Ford Forever

foreverford - thanks for such an in depth response and lots of great information especially about the type of grass available. Everywhere I have asked the last few weeks they always say 'malay' is the best. I think this means Malaysian grass. Does this go by any other name like the ones you mentioned? is it any good?

kwonity I will PM you now.

IssanAussie - I take it you are in the sisaket area and that you have some kind of gardening/mulch business? Can you explain a little more as perhaps I could make a trip to come and see you and chew ya brain a little more!

Better than that secure a load of his magic snake oil and haul as many bags of his compost as you can. If woim compost tea is your flavor (there is no "u" in that woid) he has had it going on. A great operation that is looking like it willk never stop moving forward. truly the magic of compost captured and bagged (and tied!!). If you get there or are going try to get there get a lock on as much as you can as he has a super good mix going right now.

who knows what the heck they are growing and selling when it gets to turfgrass (watch out for the Kikuyu is could take over!!). If you want quality it is out there but you will have to gravitate towards Bangkok as i know it. try to see some turf that has been planted by this same nursery's sod source, you'll learn everythig you need to know when you see it. Zoysia is indigenous to Hua Hin and it thrives in all conditions and it is the choice of turfgrass that has been used at some of the finest country clubs in teh US. Grand Slams weere played on Zoysia. We're lucky to be living inThailand where this the finest of turfgrasses is basically a weed. Such is life. Hey I thik this is the place where you can't lose when it comes to fgrowing any kind of turfgrass. Make your own blend if you want to sprig it or even chop up some sod to create a blend that may be a nice soft playground. Otherwise the best i've seen comes from out of New Orleans and is called St Augustine and it's a sharp ( not a good turfgrass for one to four year olds) big bladed fescue looking type of tropical bermuda variety. I'm sure it isn't available here. Everybody in New Orleans and Louisiana area has probably ended up planting some zoysia. any who choke dee Furt Turf Dorf Ford Rotovator Rotovator Forever

Say hey Mocker guy with a lawn mower. Many times the way turf "sodding" is done here is with sections that have very little soil. The types of grasses that grow here in the tropics are kinds that reproduce vegatively and are propogated the same way. When large areas are to be planted a grower will lower the height of his mowers and "scalp" his turf to create many "sprigs". These small pieces of cut grass are then broadcast over the planting areas and incorporated into the soil and are kept moist until they root and then they will grow laterally and fill in and continue to root. No seed is used to propagate.

With the sections of sod (rolls or squares), the type you buy will vary by the growers and retailers. The more earth that is attached to a vigorously growing root system, the more weight, and generally the more cost involved and generally all things (variety) equal, the better quality of the transplanted sod. It is not uncommon here to get sod that virtually has no earth or root system. If that is the type that you will purchase then it is very important that you are able to purchase as soon as possible after it is cut. Many types of good turfgrass can take a bunch of neglect in regards to "sodding" and even sick looking sod will come back very easily when it is put in well fertilized good loose soil.

The best turfgrass to plant in Thailand is "Zoysia" as it is indigenous to Thailand and naturally very disease resistant and it is extremely drought resistant. Another very good drought resistant variety is "Seashore Paspalum" and it also has the ability to be salt compatible to an extent. The Zoysia doesn't have the thatching problems that are associated with the Paspalum and other vigorous bermuda type grasses. Novatek from "the land down under" is a great fine close cut grass that will tolerate very extreme low cut heights and therefore is excellent for lawn bowls and greens grade golf applications; it is very problem free.

Organically you would want to prepare a good friable soil based on well aged, manure enhanced compost that would be incorporated into the native soil. A nice top dressing of a "potting" "top-soil" mix would guarantee the best results at planting time. Keep the new sod wet at all times but don't water after the sun is down. You should use a roller to quarantee a very smooth and indent-free bed if that is what you want. Clean sand is a great resource for levelling. Try to get all your irrigation lines and digging done well in advance and compact the soil in those ditches adequately so that you won't have any shrinkage and settling that will appear under your turf. If drainage is to be put in now is the time to do it. After this is completed is the time to incorporate your composted soils and make your final level. FF

Sorry but CMT is not the company that I was thinking of or would reccomend. I'll have to get the info to you when i get back to LOS at the end of the month. FFFFFFFFF

Say hey etcetera etcetera. Did a quick look on this machine I'm beating on and in a few minutes I found a new 105 horse Deere with MFWD and 16 forward and reverse speeds stripped down for about 1.3 million in the States. My 6610 was just over a half million with new rebuild engine and well gone over with a whiny 5th gear and some rear hydraulic issues. It's been non-stop (except during floods) for nearly three years and is nothing to do bunches of 100 hour weeks with it, a true work horse. At the time i bought this a new one with fwd was around 1.1 million. The hydraulics (after three years) were just fixed for 2800 baht and they drove the tractor the 30 some kilometers back to the farm after they finished, too cool. I'm sure you don't get those kind of costs with Kubota. I guess in 20 or so years you might when that's all there is here but I would think John Deere has to make some big in roads. Deere would be my only choice for a new tractor. I think you will do well by generally buying new attachments as it seems that generally anything used that isn't a fire sale you will end up findoing that the Thai value their used stufff at almost higher than the retail price they paid for it. I've found all Thai built equipment is very well made strong and inexpensive. CMT who I mentioned before is at http://www.cmt-chonb...ct/product5.asp . Their is another manufacturer I believe is somewhere near Kanchanaburi that makes some really fine stuff and I will get you their phone in a couple of three weeks when i get back to the farm and can read it off a "18" adjustable disc we got from them. The rotovator should be relatively simple to get parts for it as it is a Howard and is manufactured locally in Malaysia. I'm sure a bunch of the stuff can be also gotten from Australia. I'm looking for a large "cone" type pto 3pt rotary fertilizer spreader (like for turfgrass and farming) that I can modify to broadcast manure and bio-char. I am thinking I may end up having to make it myself but as the Chambers brothers said "Time". I woould reccomend that you take a few photos of some Deere 3pt box scrapers and when you get your tractor buy a sheet of steel and a mobar or two and a few bolts and have someone weld you up a box scraper that is wider than your desired wheel width. The easiest way to do it is start with a 3 pt casava hiller and dump the two blades. I'm sure you can find a maanufacturer that will just sell you the frame without the disc blade attachments. If you want I can manage to send you some photos of the ripper mounts that i have on the dozer blade. You can rip in reverse and then drop the bucket and pull it all out in forward and put it where and how you needit; an amazingly fast way to move earth I will probably change mine to a new design that will have the rippers (from Cat Motor Graders) still removable as they are now (60-90 seconds to put them and the pins on or take them off) but they will be spring loaded so you can still doz going forward if you want. You can also weld on a little extension that you can put on either side of your dozer blade where it is pinned to its mount to be able to use it as an angle dozer in ei9ther direction. It is a bit more involved in changing back and forth but man does it sure open up a bunch more options when moving earth (the levees at my place have gone from 40-50 centimeters to now getting near a couple meters and climbing, it's one of the necessities of trying to stay organic). I have now made an extension that is twice as long so I can get even more angle and will then be able to work much much faster moving material when I need to. I'm sure there's a bit of food for thought here and good luck finding what you need when you get here. Figuring and Fingering with Fords Forever

Great to see some seriously big plans for some kick-ass farming equipment. Every now and then I go into Sisaket and if I smile nicely the John Deere agent will let me sit on a real 4WD tractor. They had a 90HP one with a 2 plus metre rotary on it there some time back, way to big for my needs, but man what a beast!

That JD and rotary sound great! I love JD's too and will have to go to Sisaket and take a look. Do you remember the name of the dealership? How is LOS for JD tractor and implement parts availability? Will be looking at some New Holland equipment too I think. The wife (THai) and I have enough farm land to justify the equipment. Will need to find a good equipment trailer too to transport equipment from one place to the other.

I sent a reply to your question of parts but it got lost in the cyber of space will do it again when i get some sleep. On my Deere Ford Forever

I had a clutch put in a 6610 by a mechanic I used for the first time (no good buddy deal) in Prachon Chai. It cost 2900 bucks and since you know about tractors the fact that it has a dozer blade that has to have the entire system broken down to split it, it's a big job. Ooopps my mistake did I say bucks? dollars? well actually it was 2900 baht! 95 US dollars and anyone anywhere in Thaialand will be able to work on them and the parts are everywhere. Now the thing that really caught my attention when i first saw it is a system that you can put on them that allows you to have the Dozer blade and a loader all in the same hook-up. I think it is made by CMT but not positive. Forever Fords

Forever Ford

Actually I find 2900 baht reasonable for someone that does good reliable work. The dozer blade and loader same hookup sounds good too if it is of good quality, I will check on that. My implement wish list is a rotary slasher, rotavator, roadside grass cutter for grass on the fish ponds slopes, auger, plow disc set, 6 row corn planter and fertilizer, cultivator attachments, just to mention a few. I'm going to have a lot of shopping to do. Want to look around for a decent 2nd hand rubber tired backhoe too.

Jim {etc}

Actually the 2900 was a tongue in cheek. I was completely happy with the job AND THE PRICE AS HE SAID HE WAS very busy and I ended up getting it back in 4 days. I would have paid double happily. Here's something [email protected] I got a Howard 2.3 meter rotavator without a clutch for well under $3000 US but it is manufactured in Malaysia not Australia. It is the Buffalo model which is the heavy duty one. I was able to buy it in Petchaburi and transport it to the farm and maybe you can check with the email adddress to see if he has a distributor somewhere closer to where you are located. Rootin' and Rotoin' in a Ford Forever

I had a clutch put in a 6610 by a mechanic I used for the first time (no good buddy deal) in Prachon Chai. It cost 2900 bucks and since you know about tractors the fact that it has a dozer blade that has to have the entire system broken down to split it, it's a big job. Ooopps my mistake did I say bucks? dollars? well actually it was 2900 baht! 95 US dollars and anyone anywhere in Thaialand will be able to work on them and the parts are everywhere. Now the thing that really caught my attention when i first saw it is a system that you can put on them that allows you to have the Dozer blade and a loader all in the same hook-up. I think it is made by CMT but not positive. Forever Fords

Hi all

I will take a bit of a punt here just encase there is someone out there that is really interested in investing in a business with the potential not only to make a few million Baht a year, but maybe a few million dollars. We have a small rubber processing factory, it makes a small profit. My dilemma is this, I have been approached by company's in Italy, UK, OZ and China to supply rubber of various types and by the large Thai rubber house to supply them. At the end of last year I started getting offers to buy the place and these offers are getting so big I will not be able to say no much longer. Seems that in my ignorance of how it all works and being at the right place and time, that when the Limited Partnership was set up we gained the only Rubber licence to be issued for this district. Now when we started the company this was the end of known Thailand and not much rubber was being produced. How things have changed, now millions of dollars of rubber a week is flowing out. So in short if there is someone out there with the ability, capital and the go to do something like this PM me. I won't whole my breath, but it would be nice not to be swallowed up by the big players and look back in years to come and think what could have been. Jim

PS don't think I haven't looked a bank loans etc just not going to happen for thi kind of money.

Why james old boy it appears you found a huge niche to bounce into. Boing a boing a boing big guy. Now hot dog dats what I'm talkin' about. from getting coconut shells cut in half to having cameras mounted to assure your production. Some would sing "What a long strange trip it's been". Bouncing a Boing Boing on a Ford Forever

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal &lt;deleted&gt; with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Hi ETC, long time

Currently I have 15 sows. Basically 4 farrowing per month. On the compost side, still the same around 1,000 litres a week.

IA

Hi IA, it has been a long time.

The wife and I have been in the United States for some time while I sell off my farm and all the livestock. I really hate to see it all go, but

we are going to rebuild in Thailand and the new adventure, at 68 will be exciting for me.

Yesterday I was researching Ford tractors online at the Mit Alai Tractor Company in Bangkok and I think I have settled on a Ford 4WD 6610 or 7710 to start with, as buying a tractor will mean I have landed. I sorta favor the 7710 for row crop work.

What are your thoughts on that?

Jim (etc)

Hey jim start a new topic with this so it can get out and be hashed a bit. FFF 6610

Back to basics, organic farming IMHO means using naturally occuring substances used to produce other naturally occuring things, the products. The advantage is that if these substances are produced as byproducts of a farms operation then they are material cost free. The disadvantage is their effect is usually less then that achieved using naturally occuring substances that have been enhanced by man, now termed chemicals. These chemicals quickly increase yields but just as quickly increase costs. Used incorrectly both can be detrimental in one way or another. Using basic materials has another disadvantage, its a lot more work and takes time, hence adds cost.

So my question is where is the comparison of those real costs and how can the costs be established? Has anyone of there actually done an apples to apples comparison over a reasonable period of time? How does the real cost base of each compare and similarly the returns?

A completely chemical based farming system using mechanised equipment seems to still be the forward direction despite the environmental cost. How far back to animal drawn equipment and natural products only can we, or perhaps more correctly, are we prepared to go? Is there a compromise? Maybe vegetable oil fuels for tractors that are farm produced, fuel at the expense of food, or is it really? Is the labour required available?

To me, at the moment the answer probably lies in doing the right thing (if there is such a thing - do no harm) or continuing to do the easy thing. Comments and experiences please!

Isaan Aussie

Hey Good buddy What it is?

Okay now a new fixture, 50 overs. What you say is right on as you don't move towards left out information. The key to this has to be the understanding of "sustainability" you can, by the book, grow organically but it will deplete the soil and you will be in a worst situation than you started with and that is nowhere in the spirit of organic

In the days of old (that line sounds like this is a fairy tale) when people were dumb or stupid or ignorant or.... (hey can I call people those nasty things o0n the forum), or were they actually very very together ( ignorant is not a bad thing to call anyone because everyone is that way a thousand times over, you can't know everything). The fortunate ones with good water supplies and any kind of decent climate lived in the times of as you say I/A "by-products" Their farms managed to be continually more productive as the livestock increased to fill their family and social needs and eventually economic needs also. These old timers were truly ignorant that Monsanto and Dupont really were concerned with making their lives a better thing on this beautiful home we call earth.

In the early 80's when we wrote the original verbiage for the California Health and Safety Code to define what was and could be labeled organic we wrestled around what would encompass the entire scope of "organic" in words. In a nutshell it came down to using nothing but naturally occurring products to introduce to your farm lands. You can imagine the struggle to deal with livestock (meds etc) and for one example, seeds, you couldn't buy any kind of bulk at that time that hadn't been treated with some non-naturally occurring substances ( how would we treat naturally occurring substances that had been manipulated mechanically (pelleted) ) . We plodded our way through it making exclusions and trying to cover all the bases as it was a very long and time consuming proceedure. I remember at the time there was a product from Chile that was mined in the ocean, called something like Ammonia Nitrite, if I remember correctly, but the thing was it was fine for organic use and being a nitrite it had a couple less oxygen molecules than the normal nitrate chem fertilizers and with that lump of salt you could salt the sh (ah ya can;t say that) out of your (lettuce spinach etc) crop and it would allow nitrogen to explode out of the compound and green up anything super fast. Still you are salting the ground for a short term gain and harming the soil as you do it. At that point you are not being sustainable, though probably by today's standards (which are much more defined now for sure) you could still operate and label organically. As I said before the key is sustainability, if in fact people need to operate outside the bounds of international law in regards to their want or need to label organically they may be experienced enough (not ignorant) to be able to operate a sustainable farm operation that may be nearly as good or maybe even better than some organic operators.

Our old family farm that has been there more than a thousand years sits in ruins (hell it was built on ruins) as my cousins didn't change the way they farmed from the old methods (oh he tried new and exotic crops and organically) but the last farming cousin could never generate the income to be able to raise the family of four and keep his old old Italian mini-mini car on the road. He always had to do sidework to implement his income. If he had one tenth the cash it would take to buy the place he would have been able to modernize and upgrade and become more labor, crop and financially intensive to keep the farm a going operation (how bout a bit of a niche with a bed and breakfast in a newly rebuilt chapel/barn/ house/manganese water mill stucture next to the newer/older main house and barn (sorry folks the toilet is still outside). We battered this point (or was it batted) to death with the guy who wanted just 3-4 million baht a year pocket change. Without some form of sufficient capital many and most operations can't make it. Yeah put a million dollars (forget getting the permits to do anything out there) into the old farm and there is potentilal to get a good return on your investment with a hugely diversified niche filled operation. I don't think anyone could really make it if they needed to try to buy the land and then msake a decent return on all the costs associated with a new start up without some outrageous new ideas. If they had that kind of money maybe with a ton of hard work and enough cash to live on for ten to fifteen years down the road then maybe then they would get a viable return on the investment to be able to live comfortably if they were willing to put in a lot of hard work and have a lot of good luck. It's not easy or really viable in the hills out there now, for any farmers organic or not.

I/A you asked

"A completely chemical based farming system using mechanised equipment seems to still be the forward direction despite the environmental cost. How far back to animal drawn equipment and natural products only can we, or perhaps more correctly, are we prepared to go? Is there a compromise? Maybe vegetable oil fuels for tractors that are farm produced, fuel at the expense of food, or is it really? Is the labour required available?

To me, at the moment the answer probably lies in doing the right thing (if there is such a thing - do no harm) or continuing to do the easy thing. Comments and experiences please!"

The answer to all these questions are based on constant trial and error, product availability and the many other factors that affect costs of different products. My experience the first year rice farming and with exceptional luck with the weather, it allowed us to harvest just under 29 tons of Hom Mali. With that bumper crop and an excellent price (based on what I could see of the past prices) and still using the old methods of production and chemicals left us with 1/4 million in loses. Yeah the old man doesn't drink alcohol either. Those days are over as a total revamp of the methods of growing (with a 6610 Ford) and organically and sustainably allow the entire operation (less one farm we are allowing family to farm) to be planted at much less than 10% of what our total loses were. So if we were to lose everything and not even harvest now, our loses could only be counted in tens or twenties of thousands. It is a very different wicket we play on now and much more suited to my style of bowling as I am one that believes consistent line and length are the key to success (well in Sixes anyway).

There is definitely a compromise in the game and I think moreso when animal husbandry is the primary form of income. I think that people can be sustainable (really the criteria everyone should use, is my land better now than when I first got it?) withtheir farms even if they aren't 100% organic by law. You know, i know and eveybody else that has grease under their finger nails with a few knuckles busted off that their isn't any easy way to do it other than lots of studying, constant questioning and lots of hard labor. People who have finally been able to own a piece of farm land know the rewards of moving forward and making a better, more sustainable piece of mother earth. They are able to achieve the satisfaction of knowing you are doing the right thing and it feels mighty fine. Mighty fine indeed. Fine on a Ford Forever

Hey hey wait this diminutive missive shouldn't be over that soon, what do you think of my team Bangladesh in the World Cup wowwww!! Now did I tell you about bowling against one of their Internationals in the championship gam...............

Another little thing is it is amazing to see what AAN has become. I talked with Bennett Haynes bwhen we first started operating organically here going on four years ago and they didn't have anything like what they have now. heck they didn't even have that name it was just a bunch of Surin rice farmers organizing educating and certifying their members organic proceedures (they wanted two weeks of their schooling before you could join with on-going education requirements throughout the certification process. They wouldn't entertain us for entering as we were a few miles from the Surin border and they didn't want to become involved in another province including the logistics of travel in the certification process and the movement of machinery to facilitate harvests organically. It is good to see how far forward they have come and a real good on bennett as he tried to be very helpful but was very occupied getting and keeping thid new venture moving forward. well they look like they have moving on a hot rod Lincoln as I see it. Right on and Left off

Hello Ff,

http://www.*********...icky-with-logos

This should get you there.

rice555

ps don't fotget to put in bangkokpost so it look's like this:

http://www.bangkokpo...icky-with-logos

555

Hey FFF.. (smile) I wouldn't have put in Bagkok Past on your link as I truly am a neophyte to this blog forum type of thing. Farming on Fords Fine but knowing if I can write dam_n or Bang_kok Pos_t so I won't say &lt;deleted&gt; about how it makes me feel. I'll just say thanks and Feeling Fine Farming on Fords Forever

Hello Ff, TV didn't want people posting links to the BP when they went with the Nation.

"Get picky with loges" is the article title.

If it was the Nation or other news source, I would have posted the link.

I don't know if the BP policy has changed on TV?????

rice555

Hey good buddy can you PM me the link. Wow i didn't realize all this politiccing was going on but can now see how it may be. Is this really the 21st century? Thanks From a Ford Forever