ChiangMaiFun

I do agree that the majority are pro-Thaksin because he is funding alot of it - but not ALL. I can see a vast cultural shift happening where reds/yellows are just vehicles of change - if we look beyond the obvious and the 'now'.

I don't quite see how the yellows are vehicles of change. But there is change happening.

The current government is doing more for the poor. They are not perfect. They are not squeaky clean. But neither is the current alternative.

Going back to Thaksin, which is what the majority of the reds want, is NOT change.

I am viewing it as a broad sweep of cultural shfit - spanning maybe many 'events' and changes which, over a period of 30/40 years may bring Thailand forward to a more 'developed' state - and, hopefully, the poor will benefit. You may say I'm a dreamer - but I'm not the only one.

Wow! -- you have digressed from a "paradigm shift (that isn't happening in Thailand at the current time) to now a cultural shift spanning 3-4 decades! That is some major backtracking you are doing!

The reds quoted in the OP ARE from Pro-Thaksin groups.

Not at all - it's always been my view that it would take decades and if you read my posts you will know that won't you? and as for your weak analysis of cultural/paradigm shift it is apparent that you know very little about the subject - but that's to be expected of you.

I do agree that the majority are pro-Thaksin because he is funding alot of it - but not ALL. I can see a vast cultural shift happening where reds/yellows are just vehicles of change - if we look beyond the obvious and the 'now'.

I don't quite see how the yellows are vehicles of change. But there is change happening.

The current government is doing more for the poor. They are not perfect. They are not squeaky clean. But neither is the current alternative.

Going back to Thaksin, which is what the majority of the reds want, is NOT change.

I am viewing it as a broad sweep of cultural shfit - spanning maybe many 'events' and changes which, over a period of 30/40 years may bring Thailand forward to a more 'developed' state - and, hopefully, the poor will benefit. You may say I'm a dreamer - but I'm not the only one.

Is it really necessary to put "PRO-THAKSIN GROUPS" in the sub-title and then in red on the OP? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Not all reds are pro-Thaksin

Indeed. The 'obvious' was a reference to the suffocatingly yellow politics of Thaivisa/the Nation's policy of raising the specter of The Evil One every time they run an article about the reds.

ah apologies it could be read either way... and you are right of course

Is it really necessary to put "PRO-THAKSIN GROUPS" in the sub-title and then in red on the OP? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Not all reds are pro-Thaksin

The problem seems to be that all the red leaders and the PTP are pro-Thaksin.

So, in supporting the red leaders or the PTP, the red shirts are also supporting Thaksin.

I do agree that the majority are pro-Thaksin because he is funding alot of it - but not ALL. I can see a vast cultural shift happening where reds/yellows are just vehicles of change - if we look beyond the obvious and the 'now'.

Is it really necessary to put "PRO-THAKSIN GROUPS" in the sub-title and then in red on the OP? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Not all reds are pro-Thaksin

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

In the same sentence that you're complaining about being called a red and Thaksin supporter, you're calling others yellow because they agree with the government.

no i said 'established yellows on here' when did I say government supporters? I'm sure there are some Abhisit supporters who do not like PAD - I am bitching about the active yellow fellows who trash anyone who disagree and always label them 'red' or 'Thaksinites'. You can go back over all my posts where I consistently say 'I don't want Thaksin back' and 'I am against violence of ANY colour' but I still get slammed by those who are intellectually challenged.

'disappointment' is probably and understatement! but it was only one judge that decided it - it would have been 3-3 otherwise - it is not a resounding verdict by any means and is only on a point of law - it doesn't mean they are 'clean'.

PS - those of you who think that anyone who criticises tho incumbent are "Red" supporters are simply showing how incapable they are of understanding even a small part of the problems that beset Thailand.

Thank you.

Well said.

Thanks for your insight and input once again phil.

@Deeral ... that sentiment would also apply to those who criticise the PTP or red shirts. That doesn't make them yellow shirt supporters.

You're catching on!

Maybe you need to tell that to some of the other red shirt supporters anti-government posters on TVF.

maybe not, then?

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

It seems according to some (of the judges), the Electoral Commission didn't file their complaints in time to the Constitutional Court. Problem seems to be they had 2 meetings one in Dec 09 (or maybe it was Nov and the 15 day rule fell in Dec ??) and one in April 10. Whereas they did file within 15 days of the April meeting but not within the Dec. meeting. I don't quite see how the case could come so far when it wasn't in fact submitted in time. Surely this fault in the submission process would come up earlier. Does this mean that the 2 judges who voted the other way, in fact saw it fit that the 15 day deadline should refer to the EC meeting of Apr 10? If so what on earth are they doing if they can't even agree on a complaints submission process?

This is Thai. Mark is a good man, and Buddha is protecting him. Case close. The last Taksin was bad man, hence . . .

Don't bring Buddha into it - it's politics and I doubt very much that Buddha is keeping tabs on it

'precisely'? I dont think so...

So your suggesting that anyone that critises the PTP or red shirts are yellow shirt supporters?

Then you would also have to say that anyone that critises the government or yellow shirts is a red shirt supporter.

Otherwise it would be Double Standards.

you mean 'you're' not 'your'? so you link the government with yellow shirts? nice to hear the truth at last!

PS - those of you who think that anyone who criticises tho incumbent are "Red" supporters are simply showing how incapable they are of understanding even a small part of the problems that beset Thailand.

Thank you.

Well said.

Thanks for your insight and input once again phil.

@Deeral ... that sentiment would also apply to those who criticise the PTP or red shirts. That doesn't make them yellow shirt supporters.

Precisely.

'precisely'? I dont think so...

4-2? not exactly a resounding endorsement is it? at least 2 had the balls to support the EC which is there to ensure 'fair play'.

Or, alternatively, 4 judges had the balls to stand up to the red shirt threats.

anyway bring on an election and stop all this nonsense - case dimissed on a technicallity not aquitted - this does not help national unity

There was never going to be national unity if they were convicted either.

This was not about tit for tat bannings to create national unity,

but about pure power politics to get at the trough of cash via mega projects.

And to removed permanently the most organized opposition to the Thaksin' cliques

quest for a return to power.

I would not want to bet against the EC reluctantly forwarding the case because of Arrisamans threats, but purposely adding a 'poisoned pill' to the case so it would fail, but they still look like they did their pressured hack n slash job anyway.

My honestly held view - and it's not about scoring points - is that only a fair election will stop all this 'noise'. I, for one, if it is held fairly, will support whichever party wins. I would welcome an 'outside' intervention such as moderators - but I think there are so many elements that fear democracy that they wil lnever allow them in.

Now if there was ONE way Abhisit could impress me is to allow election monitors in

4-2? not exactly a resounding endorsement is it? at least 2 had the balls to support the EC which is there to ensure 'fair play'.

Or, alternatively, 4 judges had the balls to stand up to the red shirt threats.

anyway bring on an election and stop all this nonsense - case dimissed on a technicallity not aquitted - this does not help national unity

Constitution Court president among two minority judges in Democrat's case

Constitution Court President Chat Chonlaworn was among the two judges who voted against the Democrat Party in the dissolution case.

The other judge is Udomsak Nitimontree.

The four other judges, who voted in favour of the Democrat, are Boonsong Kulbuppha, Jaral Phakdeethanakul, Supoj Khaimuk and Nurak Praneet.

-- The Nation 2010-11-29

4-2? not exactly a resounding endorsement is it? at least 2 had the balls to support the EC which is there to ensure 'fair play'.

surprise, surprise... so what's the point of an election commission? answer = none

Yea well Suthep is of the same stuff - so that makes three of them

There is a certain inevitability to all this. Opportunities for women in Thailand (as elsewhere) are limited. Prostitution may not be legal or socially acceptable, but it provides women with much more money than they'll ever get working in a factory or a paddy field. It may pay well but it remains a business with considerable risks, not just health-related. The kind of men or sex-tourists the prostitutes meet are not going to be very interested in 'face' (of the cultural kind) or any other kind of human and social valence. These people will mostly regard the women as a commodity, something they can purchase and use for pleasure. The balance of power in this relation will be on the side of the purchaser, particularly if he is male and Western, not the purchased. We don't have to feel sorry for the 'girls' but we do have recognize the way they have been systematically (and systemically) stripped of history and agency, not just by this one man. At the very least, we ought to remember that all women, of whatever background or status, are or have been subject to the same process of denaturing.

LingLek

Your Thai name surely appears to represent you well--LingLek--LITTLE MONKEY. Isn't that what it means in English?

.

Well, you may not feel sorry for the girls, however many many of us on Thaivisa do feel very sorry for these girls.

I assume, all humans with some degree of humanity and compassion do feel sorry for some other humans or even some animals that suffer.... whether or not it is of their own doing or otherwise.

But then, on the other side of the universe, I also accept the fact that not all humans are born with human hearts and with human compassion.... as well.

More importantly, there are also many humans who enjoy the tasks of capitalizing on the less fortunates....

but I assume the majority of Thaivisa members do have some degree of justice and compassion in their hearts.

Even though, we feel sorry and heart broken for our fellow human beings

but we may not at the same time agree

or at peace with what they do

or with their opinion or their way of living. just imho.

Get a grip. They make 10,000 baht for a couple of hours work. How many on Thai Visa would not do that? Given, single and so on.

You would would you? get f****d on camera for 200 GBP 300 US? and then get all over the internet and DVDs - and you think many of us would? that is outrageous and warped. Have some compassion man for pity's sake - I am all for 'freedom' and am certainely very well aware that many girls do this for easy money - some even enjoy it. Many do not and even those that freely do it rarely have a free choice out of economic circumstance. There but for the Grace of God go I... do not lose your compassion.

edit: spl

Tony Poer selected and recruited the girls, then filmed them and put the images up on websites. The fact that the girls, 'Allowed' themselves to be filmed, is a somewhat debatable excuse given that someone as manipulative as Poer, is doing the persuading.

Of course something needs to be done so that girls and their parents from the poorer regions of Thailand no longer feel that this trade, is likely to increase their standard of living, faster than most other methods of 'Employment'. Maybe if the multitude of 'Middle-men' who buy their rice, paid a greater proportion of their profits to the farmers, things might be different.

Thank Buddha someone actually said something sensible and conscious.

So this guy comes to Thailand with the sole intention of paying poor, uneducated - in most cases desperate and in terms of making videos for distribution 'naive' - girls for sex, only to then broadcast himself around the world dominating them like dogs. Hmmmm - sounds like a really nice guy, I am sure his parents and fellow countrymen are proud. It is unbelievable how many people jump on this thread saying stuff to the tune of ,'the girls are acting illegally by prostituting themselves', and 'they have consented so what's the problem'. Sometimes I wonder if I am one of very few humans left with any compassion at all. Most of these women will be from the North East and the North, where sexual dignity and modesty is, contrary to popular belief very important and innate in the majority. Yet these women are selling their self-respect, dignity, integrity, culture, values and their family name for 1,000 -2,000 baht a time. Ask yourself why? Why are so many women in this position, and why are there so many men waiting in the wings to exploit their social status? What does this say about us as people, as humans, as foreigners, as sons of women and as brothers of sisters...imagine that was your daughter, your mum or your wife. Before you judge these women and condemn them as lazy, money grabbing whores, who love sex and consent to their actions , go and read some history, some case studies and facts on Thailand. Learn the reasons why this industry exists as it does...I guarantee once you know the truth behind the miniskirts and smiles you will change the way you think and certainly think twice before making such silly statements that focus on everything but the real issues at hand.

Suggested Reading:

Pira Sudham - Tales of Thailand

Pira Sudham - People of Esarn

Rise and Fall of the Absolute Thai Mona***y ( Foundations of the Modern Thai State - From Feudalism to Peripheral Capitalism) - Chaiyan Rajchagool

exactly! i thought I was one of the few on here trying to show some compassion - it's not exactly flourishing on this thread is it?

and I submit that with your limited understanding of Thailand you wouldn't have a clue about whether a paradigm shift was occurring or not.

You still left out any discussion about 'everyone knows" from the post that I replied to. (and impugning the courts is illegal in Thailand)

Maybe but I have studied cultural shift at masters level and may know a little more than you (hard to believe anyone knows more than you of course!). We all know about the censorship here and we don't need fellow posters trying to trip us up thank you - you have done it with others not just me - you are farang although I know you see yourself as pseudo-Thai.

CMF ... do I really need to go back to where you were comparing the violence of the reds to the labor union movement in Europe?

Do I really need to go back to when Abhisit came to power and didn't exclude early elections even from the beginning?

I don't have to ask myself "why" the reds turned down the offered elections. The offer was AFTER October 1st and that didn't suit Thaksin's agenda. You see, the whole thing really IS about Thaksin.

I note that you didn't address your "everybody knows" statement .. I am not surprised because it simply isn't true. You keep trying to apply a European model to Thailand and it just isn't there to apply. I think that when you have been in Thailand you may get a better understanding of how things really work here. I could be wrong though

Elections are due by Dec 2011 .... The government in place now still has the coalition with them so there is no "clinging to power" going on at all. There is rightfully representing the constituency of Thai voters that elected the MP's that elected Abhisit. To abandon those people and give in to the demands of terrorists/insurrectionists would be surrendering in the worst possible way. Abhisit has now said that he may speed up elections if the next by-elections come off with no violence.

Typical of you to twist and turn my viewpoint - I have never, ever condoned violence but have said the broad sweep of change is upon us and it is a cultural paradgm shift - and that is is unstoppable. Nothing to do with Thaksin or red violence - you have missed my point because you have a closed and arrogant mind - and of course YOU are an expert and you always make the post 'personal' try addressing tyhe subject of the thread - I have not forgotten how you try and trick people into getting into trouble with your 'impuning the courts' rants.

Just a case of everyone exploiting everyone else. The girls end up at the bottom of the pile, but I doubt they could be described as an 'innocent' party.

If they had not consented then they are 'innocent' - if they consented to being filmed and those films being distributed and money made from those films sale (and assuming they got a hefty fee) then, yes, they are not 'innocent'. It 'appears' they had not consented and even those at the 'bottom' deserve respect in my opinion.

They still had sex for money, it's illegal so they're criminals too !

OK so what if you live in Isaan or another poor part of the country, you are a young girl with no prospects and your family is poor. They want you to help them. All you have are your charms and a chance of a rich husband. For this you want to put them in jail? It's the exploiters and those who protect them need locking up.

Try looking up the definition of compassion

Spot on!!! this poster has no idea at all - he seems to think these girls 'enjoy' their trade or have a CHOICE

Those girls poor? he's relatively rich? go figure - it's disgraceful

Surely if the Government aided the 'poor' girls from the 'countryside' they would not have to resort to prostitution, which is what they are lets face it, prostitutes (women who sell sex for money) and why aren't those girls in jail ? I thought prostitution was illegal here ?

You seem set on making your poster name true, or maybe I have a different sense of humour

on this one we 100% agree!

Just a case of everyone exploiting everyone else. The girls end up at the bottom of the pile, but I doubt they could be described as an 'innocent' party.

If they had not consented then they are 'innocent' - if they consented to being filmed and those films being distributed and money made from those films sale (and assuming they got a hefty fee) then, yes, they are not 'innocent'. It 'appears' they had not consented and even those at the 'bottom' deserve respect in my opinion.

A "hefty fee"??? I doubt it was so hefty, especially based on the hollow promise of local anonimity.

The biggest worry, though, is how this guy got off multiple chargeable offences.

I was being sarcastic

Just a case of everyone exploiting everyone else. The girls end up at the bottom of the pile, but I doubt they could be described as an 'innocent' party.

If they had not consented then they are 'innocent' - if they consented to being filmed and those films being distributed and money made from those films sale (and assuming they got a hefty fee) then, yes, they are not 'innocent'. It 'appears' they had not consented and even those at the 'bottom' deserve respect in my opinion.

Those girls poor? he's relatively rich? go figure - it's disgraceful