Oberkommando

BBC, CNN, Al Jazeira, and guess what? None of them are showing any killings either. They're not showing much at all about Thailand now, it's yesterdays news. They were all reporting on how the red shirts killed the market worker who only wanted to go about his business, and attacked the residents of the flats they threatened to blow up, but not a word on any massacre by the army. Don't tell me Mr Suthijaiyuun owns the western media too?

The assassination attempt on Sondthi was a leading story on BBC all yesterday and was backed up with reports and interviews with Abhisit.

Don't know where you get the idea they are not reporting on Thailand?

the USA, the world's top and most successful tourism destination.

Eh? France is the World's busiest tourism destination by some margin.

Thailand would more likely BECOME a Myanmar if Thaksin regained power.

Remember his ties to the Myanmarese general were pretty tight, that was where his 'fortune teller' was.

Not as close as Democrat ties to the Burmese Junta. Chuan's last government a case in point.

He outwits the Thai Government yet again.

It is becoming quite amusing to watch him run rings around their efforts to get him back to Thailand.

Best he stays away, I think if he came back to Thailand there would be civil war.

AK-47s are not that rare but M16s as used by the armed forces would be harder to come by.

Relatively easy to get hold of either.

Thailand is awash with guns.

The hypocrisy is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Thailand at its finest.

Yes, but I also understand images of hijacked buses burning and rowdy mobs attacking government officials' vehicles with bricks and pipes and how these images tend to discredit certain former PMs who then claim in interviews that the military provoked violence against "unarmed peaceful protesters".

Indeed, but then they also see pictures of soldiers firing live ammo from assault weapons and the Thai Government trying to call it "crowd control".

Then a former-PM who was ousted in a military coup calling for a return to democracy.

2+2

It's a no-brainer for an educated Westerner.

A lie since blanks was used. (And anyone that saw the clip that knew anything about weapon would notice that none of the reds fell after the massive wolley of shots was launched.)

A no-brainer you say. I agree.

On the BBC and CNN among others the reporters were saying live ammunition was being used therefore the foreign public will believe them.

There were also pictures of live ammunition being loaded into magazines and heavy weapons being brandished with belts of live ammunition attached and live barrels.

BTW - M16s can't fire blanks continuously without a BFA attached to the muzzle.

Thankfully I do know a little bit about assault rifle weaponry, unlike you.

The middle classes won't be growing in no recession, certainly not when all Thailand's key industries are shrinking, indeed, two are in deep trouble; tourism and automotive.

Recession is temporary, we've been through this in 1997-1998 when people lost their city jobs and went back upcountry. The shift from villagers to towns is an irreversible trend, but, most importantly, people freeing themselves from the yoke of their feudal lords, finding independent life in the towns, and demanding equal treatment in all respects, just as any other shopping mall goer, is what will slowly but steadily eat away at his support base.

So we agree the middle classes are not growing then? Great.

What do you think will happen in a sufficiency economy model such as we are seeing implemented now?

There will be certainly no growth of the middle class with the Democrat implemented localist economic policy.

They will drive people to Thaksin and his economic policies, just as they did in their last term at the helm, and the reason the TRT won in a landslide in 2001.

So history is doomed to repeat itself.

Yes, but I also understand images of hijacked buses burning and rowdy mobs attacking government officials' vehicles with bricks and pipes and how these images tend to discredit certain former PMs who then claim in interviews that the military provoked violence against "unarmed peaceful protesters".

Indeed, but then they also see pictures of soldiers firing live ammo from assault weapons and the Thai Government trying to call it "crowd control".

Then a former-PM who was ousted in a military coup calling for a return to democracy.

2+2

It's a no-brainer for an educated Westerner.

This was a massive victory for Thaksin whichever way you look at it.

The groundswell of foreign public opinion is overwhelmingly on his side now.

Really?... US condemns Thai violence by pro-Thaksin protests

You do understand the difference between public opinion and statements by the US State Department?

-Oberkommando-

I think, you are from German (more likely) or Austrian decent.

If so, or you are speaking and writing German than you should also have a look at the

www.thailand-tip.de Forum, there you find probably, Posters who share your opinion.

That Forum has a Democracy (red) heart and some have strange conclusions.

But even there your Postings will stand out, I think.

A good chance that you have been writing there already in the past and got in trouble with the Boss there, Sir Roy.

Thank you I will check it out.

Its a struggle that the elite cant win. Why? Number games. Thailands population is growing fast. Twice as many are born compared to deaths.

Actually his support base, the subdued rural population under the heels of local mafia and business, is shrinking while urban middle classes grow at their expense. What's worse, the local lords are deserting him and preach a different myth about new saviors now.

>>>

All in all, it's an overwhelming victory for babbling idiot denying his involvment in instigating violence and talking about "moral support" instead while the huge "Thaksin calls for a revolution" banner is still shown in front of him and images or reds on a mad rampage on the right. That's how it looked on CNN.

He is the cleverest, the smartest politician of them all. That's why he gives interviews from undisclosed locations, has a honorary Nicaraguan passport, and lives on the run, with millions of Thais wanting him shot without trial.

The reds achieved unprecedented victory, I've heard of villagers screaming "Stop, Stop" when water cannons were shown on TV. "Use flamethrowers instead, burn them alive!".

The middle classes won't be growing in no recession, certainly not when all Thailand's key industries are shrinking, indeed, two are in deep trouble; tourism and automotive.

As explained in my previous post, he was too clever then at politics and so the military had to remove him with a coup.

He's still massively popular, despite your wishful thinking and long, protracted anti-Thaksin agenda.

I don't believe what he says for a minute, but he's scored a victory here, even in retreat.

It's politics, and Thaksin plays the game better than anyone.

Obviously, which is why is a convicted fugitive from justice, and he and his entire family are on the run, and his money and his cause are lost.

Yes, he plays a mean game of politics...

It took a military coup to get rid of him, such was his success at the political game.

Removed by a coup and then hounded through military appointed courts because they simply couldn't get close to him at the ballot box.

So yes, he does play a mean game of politics.

[

In what way wasn't this a massive victory for Thaksin?

He's completely outsmarted and embarrassed the current government and shown them to be completely inept, he's brought the Army out shooting at their own people (something that the whole World is watching), got a major international summit cancelled with the leaders of foreign nations fleeing the country, disrupted the capital and major cities around Thailand for days and he is on every major international news channel calling for democracy as a champion of its cause in front of a Thai flag!

It doesn't get much better than that!

He's just too clever for these guys!

He is too clever for you, thats about it. Because you actually believe it

On the contrary, I understand what he is doing, I am aware of it, but I am also wary of him.

I don't believe what he says for a minute, but he's scored a victory here, even in retreat.

It's politics, and Thaksin plays the game better than anyone.

Strange - the one I used in Central America did so without any problem at all.

I think you may be thinking of the far heavier 7.62mm SLR - it would not self load from blanks without the BFA, and sometimes would be a pig about doing it even with live ammunition - which is why it had a gas capture adjustment ring near the fore-sight. If that was set to zero (i.e. maximum recycle back to the self-loading piston) it could sometimes be made to self-reload from blanks if it was a new weapon with no wear on the gas piston.

M16 cannot cycle the ammo when firing blanks without an blank firing adaptor fitted.

I am not thinking of any other weapon, I am very familiar with the M16 and variants.

This was a massive victory for Thaksin whichever way you look at it.

The groundswell of foreign public opinion is overwhelmingly on his side now. The red-shirts haven't been defeated, merely subdued for the time being. He may have lost some support in grassroots Thailand because of the militant red-shirts but that won't be a major concern.

/../

Once again one of our reoccurring spinmeisters tell it like it isn't.

No, the fleeing traitor Thaksin isn't seeing overwhelming foreign support. And the support he has is diminishing fast as HE is now clearly working AGAINST democracy. At this speed soon even the Economist might give him the cold shoulder, as the reds actions leads to worsened economical outlook.

And losing the grassroot-support should be his concern, unless a coup is his goal.

In what way wasn't this a massive victory for Thaksin?

He's completely outsmarted and embarrassed the current government and shown them to be completely inept, he's brought the Army out shooting at their own people (something that the whole World is watching), got a major international summit cancelled with the leaders of foreign nations fleeing the country, disrupted the capital and major cities around Thailand for days and he is on every major international news channel calling for democracy as a champion of its cause in front of a Thai flag!

It doesn't get much better than that!

He's just too clever for these guys!

You might be even better then this guy if you were around at the time he really had to worry for his job.

All of the aforementioned results were achieved.

No spin needed.

Is there anyone here capable of real debate or is puerile mud-slinging the order of the day?

Atleast you proved my remark about you being a spin-meister. Have fun working at FOX News.

Attack the post not the poster.

This was a massive victory for Thaksin whichever way you look at it.

The groundswell of foreign public opinion is overwhelmingly on his side now. The red-shirts haven't been defeated, merely subdued for the time being. He may have lost some support in grassroots Thailand because of the militant red-shirts but that won't be a major concern.

/../

Once again one of our reoccurring spinmeisters tell it like it isn't.

No, the fleeing traitor Thaksin isn't seeing overwhelming foreign support. And the support he has is diminishing fast as HE is now clearly working AGAINST democracy. At this speed soon even the Economist might give him the cold shoulder, as the reds actions leads to worsened economical outlook.

And losing the grassroot-support should be his concern, unless a coup is his goal.

In what way wasn't this a massive victory for Thaksin?

He's completely outsmarted and embarrassed the current government and shown them to be completely inept, he's brought the Army out shooting at their own people (something that the whole World is watching), got a major international summit cancelled with the leaders of foreign nations fleeing the country, disrupted the capital and major cities around Thailand for days and he is on every major international news channel calling for democracy as a champion of its cause in front of a Thai flag!

It doesn't get much better than that!

He's just too clever for these guys!

Wow, we have a lot sore losers on this forum, don't we not?

The only loser has been Thailand.

I think what we have seen is a precursor to a real revolutionary movement, through both peaceful and militant means, by the red-shirts.

There will no doubt be factions of the red-shirt movement that will adopt militant and even paramilitary tactics after facing the army and Newin's blue shirt vigilantes.

A new escalation of the struggle seems likely.

It's quite disgusting the contempt for the rural poor shown on Thai Visa sometimes.

And those "miserable little villages" are the foundation on which modern Thailand is built, and so it seems will be what causes it to fall.

there are only about 10,000 red shirts most of the time other than the first day, and a mere 2,000 of them completely rooted the conference in Pattaya.

yesterday, they had no problem completely preventing people from going home etc, and they will and do physically intimidate motorists trying to merely go about their business - I personally was threatened yesterday, apparently me trying to go home is in some way a massive afforont to some fight for democracy.

Since basically by the looks of them these are not exactly a highly educated group, few probably actually pay tax, few seem that they are in gainful employment and a fair few seem to think they can break the law, well then they must be prepared to deal with the consequences.

This force is justified, and probably what should ahve been done at the airport; by letting the yellow shirts get away with stuff, now the red shirts have gone even further; what we saw on the news shows they are thugs and therefore deserve to be treated with the respect that a foot ball thugs gets.

Well, live rounds are not generally used on football hooligans. It's clear that the police and army back who they want to and come out when they feel it necessary. We are all aware who they back.They're happy when they get their version of democracy. Either way, red, yellow or whatever colour, the country needs a force that can deal with civil unrest. Live rounds are not necessaryfor crowd control. Water cannons and rubber bullets are used elsewhere in the world. If these had been used on the PAD earlier in their campaign of civil unrest, then we wouldn't have had the situation that we have today. They got away with it for weeks and there was no action taken when they effectively brought Thailand's transport system to a stand still. This should simply not be allowed to happen.

How would you know if they were live rounds or not? Blanks sound just the same when fired into the air! Firing a few bursts into the air is pretty standard riot control stuff. Gets attention. The government side has stated that 4 soldiers were shot and wounded. Did they shoot each other?

OK - simple lesson for you

From the televised news footage - observe closely the soldiers who were actually firing - they are the ones with puffs of smoke coming from the business end of their weapons - two things stand out ...

1 - there was zero recoil on the fired weapons (and several were firing with only one hand on the weapon) all of the televised ones were pointed between 30 and 45 degrees into the air at the time they fired. This lack of recoil (even when fired one handed) indicated that blank ammunition was in use.

2 - ALL of the troops who fired had light coloured ribbons tied to their left-shoulder epaulette - this is a common training exercise type marker to indicate blank-ammunition armed troops with authority to fire at will - even the British military uses similar (though usually not as obvious) markers so that distaff (umpires) know who is allowed and likely to make their weapon go "Bang". Watching the news broadcasts closely, I did not see one soldier without an epaulette ribbon fire their weapon - that could mean either they had lethal ammunition in it, or they were without ammunition.

The termed "armed" (in British forces, including the police) means only that a weapon has been issued and is carried - it does not indicate if ammunition is also carried or loaded - in fact, standard written orders for guards (for example) are divided into two sections, orders for armed guards WITH and WITHOUT ammunition.

None of the above however precludes the possibility of the Thai soldiers having unauthorised lethal ammunition in their possession (e.g. spare magazine), nor precludes that some of them may have been disposed to make use of it if they felt it necessary.

From what I saw on TV, I saw no evidence of aiming into the crowds (even as a warning gesture) nor any obviously bullet wounded casualties in the coverage from the hospitals - that does not mean such things did not happen, only that available evidence indicates that it did not.

As one poster mentioned, the reds are not making media capital out of displaying shot protestors - this indicates also that none were shot. Compare that to the aftermath of the attack on the PM's car with the security guy being paraded on the reds stage.

Gaz

Simple lesson for you. M16's cannot cycle ammo without a Blank firing adaptor fitted to the muzzle.

the government looks in control and the future seems bright again.

On what planet is this?

World's Gloomiest Countries - #3 Thailand

I would be very skeptical of what I read in the Bangkok Post. They are clearly bias in favor of the present government.

Well you hardly find anyone who can read and write who is biased to Chalerm or the corrupt murder Thaksin.

That is so unfair and so untrue. I have many friends in Isaan....some highly educated, some teachers, who say that when Thaksin was PM their students had books for the first time in 20 years....the other governments promised, promised promised...got elected....forgot. Poor Isaan folks just were not important enough to keep promises too. These folks have genuine grievances and they are NOT happy to have their votes thrown out time and time again. PLEASE do not say about them being 'paid' to vote. I know now from working here ten years, that no matter what....they do what they want. SO funny to think that some one is forcing them to vote for them. What a joke.

Most posters here won't ever understand what it is really all about, they are all still too fixated about one man.

This was a massive victory for Thaksin whichever way you look at it.

The groundswell of foreign public opinion is overwhelmingly on his side now. The red-shirts haven't been defeated, merely subdued for the time being. He may have lost some support in grassroots Thailand because of the militant red-shirts but that won't be a major concern.

Thaksin is still in self-imposed exile and untouchable. This government must regret letting him go now. Their fault entirely on that one.

The country was disrupted for several days, the current government embarrassed as the ASEAN summit cancelled and their inability to handle the situation exposed.

Meanwhile conditions on the domestic front, especially economically look to worsen considerably.

This government will cling on and on with the support of the military and judiciary as Thailand continues its downward spiral into the abyss.