mauGR1

42 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Or would you be so brash and foolish as to deny sujective reality any true validity?  

Apparently that's what "they" are trying to do, more or less subtly ????

16 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God created a universe with black holes that consume entire solar systems- so why does anyone assume that God is "merciful".

While i have to admit that i have been feeling that way, there's something i have to say about it.

This time, i will call God " the higher self".

(Sorry for those who think that higher and lower don't exist)

The higher self is everywhere, in the flowers, in the edible plants, in the cute birds and the blue sky, but also in the tsunamis, in the poisonous insects, and in the cruelty of the man.

If a man happens to be merciful, he makes the mercy of the higher self visible in this world. 

Perhaps i could complain about the general lack of mercy in this world, but then, i could also be grateful for the merciful folks out there.

So, to say that " God is not merciful " is not exactly correct imho.

5 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

It's also been said that if Jesus Christ had his second coming and spoke the truth he'd be crucified again in a New York minute.  By the same people who so anxiously awaited his return as their savior, too.  Because his truths would run counter to their false beliefs.

Sure, many people in fact have paid a high price for telling the truth as it is.

Yet, most of the people i talk to, are so deeply involved with their materialistic needs, that they don't even want to discuss it.

13 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Here's what happens when you don't understand what beliefs are . . . you're apt to believe anything that has even a scintilla of rational behind it.  Especially if the beliefs come from "experts" or "science" all citing "studies."  There's no questioning "experts" or "science."  You wouldn't question God, would you?  Now that would be silly.

For the science minded here, or those who blindly accept every word or study science produces as valid, I'll tell ya, given all of the known instances of whoring themselves out for money, compromising their integrity over ideologies, undermining their trust over conflicts of interest and even going so far as to be outright deceptive at times the institution is absolutely destroying their credibility.  I remember in the 60's when a product bore the label "Made in Japan."  it may as well have read "Junk."  Because at that time the two were synonymous.  These days whenever I hear the words science or experts I roll my eyes.  Science as an institution has totally lost it these days.

Anyway, I laughed my ar$e off watching this.  So true, so sad. 
 

 

There were a few posts about Bob Dylan the other day, so here's some lyric which impressed me when i was an almost innocent teen :" .. and if my thoughtdreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine.." so I'm not sure what i can say more ????

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Genes dictate as always and genes dictate that the strongest get the best women to breed in. Thus the human race will survive, which is one of the top genetic imperatives.

Hierarchies, IMO, were created by humans to ensure the top dogs get the women with the best genes.

 

NB Strongest has never implied "goodness".

I was not just referring to the human society, and not even just to the physical reality.

I was referring to hierarchy on every plane of existence, including the planes invisible to us.

What you say makes sense on the physical plane, but a person who looks very weak physically, may be higher, or stronger in the hierarchy of spiritual development. 

10 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

If man creates hierarchy then surely it exists.  All I'm saying is that hierarchy is not an inherent feature of reality.  And perhaps, too, when observing animals what appears to be a hierachal order may be nothing of the sort.  Only interpreted as such through belief.

Glad to hear from you again, mauGR1. 

Does the man creates hierarchy,  or is hierarchy already there, with or without the man ?

It reminds me of the question,  was the egg before the chicken,  or vice versa..

My answer would be, they exist at the same moment, as time itself appears to be real in the physical world, but doesn't necessarily exist not in the same way, in more subtle realities. 

( everyone who understands what I'm trying to say' deserves a medal, Lol)

18 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I just had a conversation with a friend whose current view is that "indeed EVERYTHING has a level of consciousness," as stated in his own words.  My reply to him is perhaps a better and more detailed explanation of the point I made in my above post on the perception of someone having a holier than thou attitude towards others.

 

So here it is.  Thoughts are always welcome.

 

I would say that there are no levels of consciousness.  Consciousness is what we are.  There are obviously infinite types of consciousness.  The consciousness of a man is not the same as that of a cat, or dog, or plant, or rock.  They are different types to the end that each type of consciousness provides for a different kind of experience.

 

Man has a penchant for making comparisons.  And in making comparisons he can't help but categorize.  And so he may attempt to categorize the various aspects of consciousness by intelligence, for example.  Higher intelligence then being erroneously thought of as an indication of a greater degree of consciousness and so on.  And his comparisons then also extend to making comparisons and categorizations of different consciousnesses of the same type.  Usually in terms of higher and lower as promoted by currently held ideas about evolution.  There is no such hierarchy in real terms.  That is a man made construct.

Basically, consciousness seeks to know itself in as many ways as possible through it's experiential expression of itself in as many ways as possible.  What would it be like to be a doctor?  A lawyer?  A politician?  An athlete?  A musician?  A bricklayer?  A garbageman?  A mundane floor sweeper?  A famous scientist?  Each occupation in these examples provides for a different type of experience and through that experience consciousness knows itself in ways that were previously unknown to it.  A floor sweeper is no more higher or lower than a renowned and accomplished scientist in those terms.

What would it be like to be a bat, a cat, a rat, a gnat?  An amoeba, a fly, a plant, a fish?  A rock, a hat, a mountain, a table, a planet, an atom, a cell?  Each form which  consciousness takes provides for a new and different experience and thus a greater knowing of itself.  No different than any desire we may have to experience flying, or playing a guitar, or performing card tricks, or visiting another country.  There's no hierarchy within any of that.  No up or down, higher or lower, better or worse, more advanced or less advanced.

And so it is, too, in the pursuit of knowledge.

As usual, i partly agree with your conclusions,  i think that a hierarchy exists, but i fully agree with the intent of exploring what we call " consciousness ".

Thanks for the thought provoking posts though, and thanks extended to the other valuable posters  of this thread too .

( i guess you know who you are )

4 minutes ago, mikebike said:

This is no longer a discussion of whether you believe in God but just apologetics. Sad. 

 

 

Hope you'll feel better soon, don't be sad ????

2 minutes ago, NotReallyHere said:

Another nonsensical comment.  Your question doesn't make sense because I didn't call anyone any names.  Therefore, I can't answer it.

 

This is typical of this site.  People with weak positions (like yourself) keep changing the subject until they feel like they have "won".

 

My original point stands.  "Intelligent design" makes no sense, unless, of course, you choose to redefine it so that it says nothing about any "intelligence" in the design.

 

Some believers with weak faith feel the need to defend indefensible positions at all costs.

 

Probably too many missionaries on here.  This thread is what one would expect if one were foolish enough to open the door when they came knocking.

 

Wrong again.

Actually you don't even know if you want or you don't  want to discuss the existence of God.

That's worrying, perhaps you may try to make peace with yourself ????

Here, I'll help, what are your arguments to deny the existence of God?

6 minutes ago, NotReallyHere said:

I didn't call any particular person a fool.  If you feel indirectly insulted by comments like mine, you are probably reading and participating in the wrong type of thread.  There are plenty of threads about visas you can read that won't leave you feeling offended.

I'm not offended at all, but i guess you're not answering my question.

Up to you ????

1 minute ago, NotReallyHere said:

Yet believers do, to bolster their own faith and to try to make themselves look less foolish.

Ok, and what's your plan to make yourself look " less foolish"?

.. or do you think that calling other people names is enough?

51 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

It's all just wishful thinking.

Humans excel at deceiving themselves and others; it's our super power.

That's fair enough,  so if i decide to deceive myself in believing in the existence of intelligence and, to various degrees, consciousness, in all the visible and invisible life in the universe, where's the harm in that ?

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

No, I wasn't referring to him. I don't like his music and never bothered reading his lyrics.

I was a big fan. While his music can be quite often described as ordinary, some of his lyrics, from his early years, are quite inspiring and sometimes even terrifying. 

If one's not American though, one may need a slang translator.

20 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Sometimes, when I think about God, I am thankful to Him for providing us with the oceans. 

 

God gave us the oceans as a carbon sink. 

 

God did not give us kitchen sinks. Kitchen sinks were created by Man. 

 

Anyway, this God-given ocean continues to soak up the carbon spewed out by his flock. 

 

But, due to His flock's spewing of carbon, God's ocean is becoming more acidic. 

 

As we, God's flock, continue to add evermore CO2 to God's oceans, God's oceans will become like seltzer water, and God's creation will continue to die. 

 

God provided us with the perfect place to live happily with each other. 

 

In return, did we properly husband God's garden? 

 

Or, did we eat too much of the apple! 

 

Chauncey was a good gardener. 

 

Why can't we, too, be more caring of our garden, like Chauncey? 

 

God loves Chauncey. 

 

You should love Chauncey, too. 

 

 

If there's something sensible in those words, it must be carefully hidden ????

18 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

like who?

that term is vague and almost meaningless.

is the dalai lama enlightened?

he may know a lot, but some of his advice seems silly ... for instance, he has advocated celibacy because relationships can lead to suffering. doesn't seem feasible for everyone to be avoiding relationships. 

so maybe 'enlightened' doesn't exist. 

Enlightenment is temporary, it happens to anyone, when the dual judgement is suspended, and the energy of the universe is free to flow.

I believe there are few, however,who can manage, through practice, to live in a state of constant enlightenment.

I've probably never met anyone who has achieved that so far, but i think it's quite possible, especially when one is fed up with the vanity and hypocrisy which pervades the human society.

6 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

That the story is propaganda, to assist the Buddha to teach and integrate into a Vedic environment where most people believed in a Creator God, is the best explanation I can think of. Perhaps you have a better explanation. ????

Perhaps i do, but it would be only speculation.

Perhaps living the present moment is more important, it's so exciting nowadays to find a grain of truth in the middle of so many lies.

5 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Human nature has not changed. The lies and deceptions have always been the same. What has changed significantly is the dissemination of information and our perception of the "bad" parts because they are so ubiquitously available. 

Perhaps the increased quantity of informations available in modern times is actually proving my point, but let's agree to disagree again ????

15 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Can you see the propaganda in this story? If the Buddha were to attempt to teach his enlightened views to a population who believed in a Creator God and a permanent soul, he probably wouldn't achieve much success.
However, if that Creator God, Brahma, were to bow to the Buddha and encourage him to teach, then his success would be greater. And it was greater, because a new religion was created 

It's funny that you call that  "propaganda" without any evidence of what Buddha truly experienced in his meditation. 

I guess that in the modern world, where almost everything is propaganda, it's easy to accuse the ancient folks of being liars or manipulators.

Perhaps they didn't have great technology in Buddha's times, yet my overall impression is that there were less lies and deceptions in comparison to modern times.

As you probably know, Buddha is regarded as an avatar of Vishnu in the Hindu tradition, and like Jesus in the west, was promoting freedom from the bigotry of organized religion. 

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I see that one is a bit tricky. Code for understanding is sharing with each other our experiences, and find similarities as well be present without words or pictures, feel the same, sense the same, and even manage to debrief our experiences together, which we can not easily do on same level with plants and animals unless you have a strong connection.

Yes, i agree that sharing experiences is most important, and surely one of the reasons why i like these kinds of conversation. 

Animals, plants and minerals are great teachers too !

I believe that the connection with nature which you're talking about is not too difficult to achieve in the right place, at the right time and with the right attitude, or even better with no attitude at all.

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Actually, most of the bad people in my life really were bad people, not "good people" that erred a bit.

However, most people in the world suffer, and always have, which leads me to wonder if the bad guys are winning.

Surely there's a battle going on, perhaps it's part of life, and it will never end.

17 minutes ago, Hummin said:

What is is really spirituality, as we only know human code for it..

I don't know what do you mean for "human code".

As for "what is spirituality ' ,I'd bet you'd get as many answers as any human being on this planet. 

As far as i know, everything we perceive as material, is a manifestation of the spirit, and that includes animals, plants and minerals, and from the biggest star to the tiniest of atoms.

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

And I believe some animals have intelligence

Just to make things clear, the indisputable fact that animals are intelligent, is not in contradiction with the observation that animals' intelligence originates from a "group soul".

In the same way, Theosophists and Anthroposophists are not disputing the achievements of natural science, but try to integrate it with a spiritual point of view.

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

And I believe some animals have intelligence as we learn more and more through researches, as well some researches state they have consensus. a google search for animals consensus gives a few fruity links.

I had to google "animal consensus", and yes, of course animals are intelligent and conscious to various degrees. 

Yes, I'd guess a soul has to live many lives to achieve freedom from the cycle of incarnations. 

In some way, every little action of today, reflects the past and creates the future.

Some say that past and future don't really exist, but an infinite present moment exists, and that concept makes me think ???? it seems true, but hard to grasp.

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have come to believe that I must have been a very bad guy last time around, and this time I'm learning to suffer from bad people. I certainly have suffered and usually from bad people, but I sometimes wonder if it's just that there are a lot of bad people out there and everybody suffers.

I suppose I won't know which it is till I exit this life.

Most of those " bad people " are not aware of " being bad", they are just blinded by focusing on the material world and their egotistical goals.

It's true that everyone is suffering in one way or another, even those who seem to be the most fortunate, but, i speak for myself here, sufferings have made me explore and expand my consciousness. 

Joy and sorrow are 2 polarities, and i believe there are lots to learn from both.