OxfordWill

Well zorro1 thats the problem, it is textbook thai bargirl AND textbook traditional thai girl to expect financial support if he is richer than her. Telling them apart from one another with only a couple of paragraphs describing their financial expectations is almost impossible- because both groups of girls are raised to expect the same thing- only with hugely different motvations and intentions. Best of luck to you OP . One book which has helped some people in your situation is called "Thailand Fever". Its a bit simple and only covers the basics, but its a good starting point. You can pick it up in most book shops or online. I believe it has a copy in both Thai and English so you can read it with your partner and learn about one another's cultural differences. Its been a long time since I read it but I see it mentioned on this forum positively quite often.

JasonM - dont give up on her, do as a Thai man would do- chase, chase, chase. You can get her back.

And for everyone else- see how negative feedback can affect people. This is why I prefer to assume the best.

JasonM I broke up with her, because of paranoia I had created for myself, having decided she was a money obsessed girl who couldnt possibly love me (I arrogantly even assumed she would never know "true love" !!!) because for her, love and money were too close together. I held onto the belief that if she loved me she would never mention money, and that was my mistake. I caused her some terrible embarassment and heartache, approaching everything too carelessly and thinking the world span just like it did back in england.

GFL - you could well be right, I just hope youre not, because we see too much of the bad eggs on this forum already

p.s. laughing out loud at this notion of "love as universally defined" !!

Couple of small corrections GFL if youll forgive me:

Firstly while you describe the situation with alot of working girls accurately, this is still less than between 0.15% - 2% of the overall population (scope of thai government to NGO western assessment) and secondly, re eldest daughters, thats only true of Esarn families and not all of them either. Dont forget that the majority of thai women do not sell their bodies (just their minds, like the rest of us!).

Brit- Well, it could be that your partner made the extr effort to understand our culture, and adapt her behaviour, expectations and so on accordingly. My first Thai girlfriend was like this, she did all that without fanfare of rubbing it in my face to show off her extra effort. Perfect wife material- shame I was only 19 at the time, if Im lucky ill meet her again at 30-something!

JasonM- exactly. And moreso- Thais work in an interconnectedness which we westerners do not understand without some effort to study it. My previous resistance to make a show of generosity for the family of my first non-rich thai girlfriend, and repeated resistance to anything I saw as "paying for her company" led her to massive loss of face, when all she was trying to do was give me opportunities to gain respect from other Thais, such as her family. I didnt get this at the time, and Ive never been able to apologise for behaviour which was, in Thai terms, actually very rude and disrespectful. But I was fresh to the country and thought I knew it all. Now I am familiar with the place, but I still think I know it all. Ah well.. half way there..

Well of the 4 "serious" thai girlfriends Ive ever had, 2 were rich and 2 were poor. The rich ones pretty much looked after me. The first poor one, I didnt help at all, which I regret greatly. Back then I saw things with a 100% western view and refused to accept any other perspective. I ended up pushing away a wonderful lady who simply tried her best and put up with my complete lack of respect for her culture. Im a little wiser since then and the second, was well off when we met and used to spend a great deal of money on us, I admit, more than I did. But since then she has had financial problems, and I have financially supported her for periods of time. Not a salary, mind you, just helping with bills when I can. I also dont think this OPs girlfriend wants a salary- just that this is his interpretation of her shy request for financial help on a regular basis. Salary is such a loaded term.

For me personally, in a bizarre twist of cultures, I actually gain self esteem from being able to provide financial support for my girlfriend when needed. Not so long ago I would have been disgusted with myself for even considering it. I think Ive been in Thailand too long!

personally I would find it unbearable to know my kid is out there somewhere. My Thai male friends dont agree, on the whole- one even thinks he has 1 who hes never met, and he really doesnt seem to be bothered by this.

Well, dont beat yourself up about it. But I was once in a similar situation and my wholelife Ive never had credit cards.. probably a mistake come to think of it.

I totally get your point, and I personally agree. I just dont think Thais would, on the whole. Thais dont see that money kills passion/love infact most of them see it as a way to increase love and passion. A vehicle to demonstrate their generosity and desire to support. A way to foster greng-jai in their partner. A way to gain self esteem and pride. The same way we gain self esteem from knowing we never paid a girl to be our gf (at least, thats how WE see it). Theres nothing wrong with us who have a problem with this, Im only saying Thai men (on the whole) dont.

Apologise if I come across hostile- Im chilled and discussing this. But often people say I come across as if Im in a heated argument, which in my mind, we are not. Maybe we'll have a proper argument about it over a pint sometime

No, although some people do that. Like you say - 50/50 is ideal. Maybe somewhere there is a Thai forum where his girlfriend is getting advice on western culture from other thais. Maybe her post would be "Ive met this great guy and he seems to really like me but he knows Im not as rich as him and I struggle each month to pay my bills, but he has never offered to help even after so many years of our being together. Does it mean he doesnt really like me and will just dump me when he is bored?" Then other Thais who have western partners will be teaching her about western values such as independence, not mixing love with money, etc etc.. and then a bunch of Thai who dont really get western culture will all be "oh leave him what a bad guy everyone knows if you love a girl and been with her for so many years you would already be offering to help her if she has financial issues.. so obviously that guy is just looking for free sex and a great time, find a new guy...".. or something.

Thats how I felt you feel- i.e. if you wouldnt do it at home, dont do it here. But doesnt that ignore the vast cultural differences in play?

I agree with you that on some things, your advice is sound. Particularly business. Romantic relationships are so different, though.

I do definitely disagree with you on the whore point. You seem very attached to the idea that money and love must not mix. "True love" can only be proven by the absence of financial trnasactions. This is so very western. Im not saying its wrong, or right. Im just saying that Thais, for the most part, dont think in that way. Even if all your gfs have done, even if most of mine have done, it doesnt go for the majority and more importantly doesnt go for the cultural concepts upon which this culture exists. Im yet to read an ethnography or cultural assessment of Thailand which says otherwise and it doesnt fit with my personal experience either.

Really, I think youre trying to argue the normative point- how things ought to be, or should be, rather than how they actually are.Youre passing judgement on culture, and in doing so youre actually accepting my point that this is how things are. But we're talking normatively, I actually agree with you. But then, Im a westerner.

Simple litmus test- ask your Thai male buddies- "if your gf wants you to help support her financially, when she cannot afford to herself, is she therefore a whore?" See what they say! You already know, though, that they wouldnt agree.

TopDogger is right to urge caution. And 30k is alot of money. However I remain always wanting, willing, these situations to be about good people trying to do the right thing. My reasoning is only that, if we are wrong that he has a bad egg, we stand to ruin his chance at a happy relationship (assuming he takes on board the negative replies). However if I am wrong, the biggest risk is that he looks further into Thai culture to try and understand his girlfriend. So, my option seems to have less damaging power. Then again, I could be overthinking our importance to any of this, but the guy did come to us for advice...

Geekfreak- It is normal for a Thai man earning good money, who has honourable intentions to eventually possibly marry his girlfriend of "many years", who herself does not earn much at all, to want to be financially supporting her. Further, it is normal for him to be supporting, at least in part, her parents, if they are already engaged. The point which I think you want to make is that in a thai on thai relationship this kind of problem would not come up- because the Thai man would have been providing in a cumulative way so as the talk of "salary" to never have come into either persons mind in the first place. It goes without saying that different situations where the girl has a good job or earns her own good salary, etc etc, things wouldnt be like this, although I have actually come across that too- where the girl earns good money and keeps it all, and the thai guy is happy to pay most of her bills and let her keep her own savings. It gives him self esteem to be able to. And Ive come across, as have you, situations where the girl supports the guy. But none of these are as ubiquitous as the man who earns alot more, supporting the girl he loves, who earns alot less.

As I said Im talking in averages, probability, etc. You (and I, as it goes) have had experiences which are "outside" the probability. Good for us! But given the limited information the OP provides, advising him based on the exception rather than the rule, seems illogical.

Cathyys comment is not a racist one but merely one of observation:

I also agree that it was an assessment on physical characteristics that distinguish many groups. We have a new Thai member and it would be good if members would behave themselves and not make accusations.

Welcome to ThaiVisa Visible.

Sorry but, isn't making an assessment on physical characteristics, the very definition of racism?

er, no.

standard good practice is to run in limited user whenever possible. Dont try to reinvent the wheel!

I personally doubt the gf used the word "salary" understanding exactly what it meant. Maybe she did. Maybe she didnt. The statistical overwhelming probability however is that she is a normal thai girl trying to see if her boyfriend is capable of displaying generosity. Does her boyfriend understand the fundamental importance of such? To me, his OP suggests not, and I think the volume of replies saying "run, shes bad, forget her, dont be an idiot..etc" are not going to help him get closer to understanding but further from it.

I tend to err on the side of showing benefit of the doubt to the Thai girl in these situations. Of course its impossible as only the OP knows the individuals involved, and maybe if we also knew them, we would be in stronger positions to advise. But given a "hypothetical" situation in which an "average" thai girl and an "average" western man have this scenario, on "average" we would be able to assume certain things about the girl and the guy, which in my opinion lead me to the general advice that the girl is not "gold digging" (infact this concept doesnt really exist in Thailand, not in the way we mean it- it exists in different ways, mainly only two which I have come across, which I wont go on about here are not relevant) but rather bringing up the subject of money in a shy way in order to give her boyfriend the opportunity to demonstrate the most important (arguably, ok, definitely top 3) quality of "generosity". In such a hypothetical situation, a Thai man in the same situation would most likely jump at the chance to, if he could afford it, support his girlfriend with a monthly stippend. Western and Thai culture, on this particular issue are almost exactly opposite. Most people I grew up with in England were taught that money and love do not mix well, but the exact opposite is true in Thai culture. Hearing, believing and finally *understanding* this, is probably the most important part of successful relationships between western and thai lovers. Of course its not enough to just think ok, if I love I must provide, one must also learn the whys and wherefores- the underlying cultural concepts which drive this reality- but its a good enough start to let go of the western ideal that money somehow pollutes "true love". Try to see it rather as a way to show your love- money merely being the most powerful vehicle.

Of course it could be that your girlfriend is a bad egg and will take you for a wild run while disrespecting you all the time, but you havent suggested anything to indicate she is within that minority group of women in this country.

/waffle

Its important to mention SGD here. SGD is "Super Grub Disk". You can google it. Download it, write it to a CD. Keep it somewhere safe. Any grub error, it can fix, it includes help sections for non technical users. It has saved my ass several times.

amen brudda. Its linux, deffo, but its also all the dope we smoke.

Was WINE not able to let you use your windows only software from within linux?

After having spent many years together (on and off, as I go back to my home country to work), my GF is asking for a salary, but she tells this is not about business, it is about love! I ask her how much? She tells me bar girls can get about 30,000 B, so maybe my salary should be about the same. Of course, she was shy about talking about this at the beginning, because "it is not polite"! I am supposed to be a gentleman! I also must help her parents! I must also help my parents. Is she helping my parents? Is she going to? Nope! I am confused! Should I run?

Welcome to Thailand this is not like your culture. Love and money go hand in hand. If you love her, you should support her. IF this seems odd to you, you dont understand Thailand.

Its a good sign she was shy to talk about it. Do you want to marry her? If not after "many years" then ask yourself if this relationship is fair to the poor girl.

p.s. am disapointed to see some long term posters still apparantly know fuc_k all about Thai culture.

Jesus, you did him more harm than good. What if he was genuine?

Damnit, is nowhere sacred!

nobody cares Jean.

Sympathies to those affected by this accident, let's hope its not as high a count as the Bangkok post suggest.

........right