BAF

Does it matter if it's of Worldwide Relevance, you claimed in your earlier post that it was  only a center of Islamice Learning, and you are wrong because it's also a university.

I wasn't clear enough, probably.

I didn't write that it's ONLY a center for Islamic studies. I did write that "you are not seeing foreign students flocking there in droves to learm about economics, social sciences, politics, engineering, maths etc on a world level"

I also added "Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?" which implied that more than Islamic studies were offered in Al-Azhar otherwide they couldn't be an alternative to Oxford and Harvard.

So, at the end of the day, you are confirming that they are nowadays just an unknown university (apart to Islamic students of Islamic matters) with no relevance on the world scene (that was my point).

How many in the West, in Asia and in Africa know of and aspire to go to Al-Azhar? How many in the West, in Asia, in Africa and in the Middle East know of and aspire to go to Oxford and Harvard?

 Domestication of plants and animals is what allowed humanity to grow from small villages into big cities and the codification of laws(Hammurabi's Code), which allowed Empires to grow.Why don't you point out to us what laws existed in Europe 2500 years ago.you claimed that nothing of value came from the Middle East and again you are wrong, and no evolution and the ability to domesticate animals and plants are not the same thing. So again your analogy is wrong.

You can't read or again I wasn't clear enough.

Let's see if you get it: "when the first biped hominids were walking in Africa, what did the Middle East have that can match that"?

Wow you are really on a roll, the oldest pyramids date from 4500 years ago, the buildings you mention came 1500 years later.  The buildings in Crete and the Parthenon and the Roman buildings put together don't come anywhere near the engineering and difficulty of building the pyramids. The buildings you mention are miniscule compared to the engineering done in the middle east and africa at the time.

I wrote "...OLDER than those piramids..." Those = the piramids in Iran you just mentioned.

It seems you really can't read.

Regarding the engineering and difficulty of building the pyramids and the fact that "the buildings I mention are miniscule compared to the engineering done in the middle east and africa at the time" you have clearly no clue of the dimensions of the piramids and, for example, the Greek Partenone and the Roman Colosseo: the biggest piramid (the piramid of Cheope) has a square base with a side of 230 m and a height of 147 m. All the other piramids are smaller than this and most are MUCH smaller than this.

The Colosseo is an amphitheater of 188 m x 156 m x 56 m and could seat 50000 spectators and I don't think you have the competence to judge the engineering complexity of the theaters, amphitheaters, bridges, aqueducts, circuses, basilicas, thermae, temples, roads and cities the Romans were building around the world 2000 years ago (and many of which still stand today)...

Qanats  transport water from the mountains to the deserts, and the longest ones are over 500 kms long. And if they use them even today, that tells you how well they are built and is only a testament to their longetivity . That's good engineering in my book. How many Roman aquaducts are still serving today, not many-if any at all, they were not covered like qanats, so they are prone to seepage,evaporation and pollution, not good engineering, is it?

Roman aqueducts are not being used today because most parts of the ex-Roman Empire are today 1st world developed countries with modern, state of the art (we are in the year 2007) facilities...

But many still stand today and can be admired all around the world as artistic works (look at the ones in Tunisia and Turkey and Israel).

And, the vast majority of Roman aqueducts are closed and/or closed and underground (they built aqueducts also in Africa and in the Middle East), you have clearly no idea how complex and how different they are from Persian qanats.

Rome alone was served by a network of about 500 kms of aqueducts which provided fresh water and drained the waste of a population of 1 million people...

Should I post a picture of the Iranian system of holes in the ground and of the Roman engineering works which resemble today's aqueducts (but are artistically much superior)..?

The Roman Empire was large, and all they wanted to partition is a 120 km part. You say Europe's dimensions aren't Chinas'.  But the truth is that the Roman Empire was bigger than just a part of Europe, it included parts of Africa and Asia Minor. So the Roman Empire was nearly as large as China. Again you are wrong.

In fact it was probably bigger, it spanned over 3 continents but it was not what I meant, of course.

It didn't consisted of a single "chunk" of land mass like China so the Romans had no need nor possibility to phisically mark the endless boarders of their vast empire especially since the Great Wall was a defensive structure (like the Vallo of Antonino and Vallo of Adriano, hence the comparison) while the Roman Empire had an expansive and trading drive.

This one is easy, the world is cyclical just like the weather. Poles change, the seas rise and fall, it's all cycle. What goes around comes around, Ask yourself when has the world been static?

Never and that's what happens with power, The Sumerians, The Persians, The Romans, The Greeks, The Arabs, The Ottomans, The British Empire. It's all a cycle, maybe it will be the Indians or Chinese next, who knows, but the truth is that everything changes with time.

Every change has had its reason, pampal, jus like Poles shifts and tides. Besides, cyclic means that they take turns at being in power and we will again have "The Sumerians, The Persians, The Romans, The Greeks, The Arabs, The Ottomans and The British Empire" and I don't think so...

Again, Jesus spoke Aramaic(middle eastern language), not Latin, that tells you his heritage and it wasn't Roman. Christianity comes from an area that was a province of the Romans, but before it had been a province of the Persians, and before that, the Babylonians and before that the Egyptians and before that the Phoenicians. And btw, the Romans were quick to pull him on a cross, so they weren't exactly supportive of Christianity, in fact they became Christians 400 years later, after having killed and fed many Christians to the lions.

Jesus was a Roman "citizen" born in a province of the Roman Empire whose "legal" language was, like everywhere else in the empire, the Latin. He didn't even ever question his citizenship nor tried to put himself over such issues: "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar".

And most importantly, he himself told (ever read the Vangels?) his most important disciple, Pietro (the one who has "the keys of Paradise"), to go to the capital of the empire, Roma, and "found there His church".

Ever wondered why the Vatican is in Italy?

(nothing to be proud of anyway... )

perhaps the pendulum will swing back in the other direction, perhaps it wont.

I would LOVE to see it.

I would love to see any other culture than the Western one ruling the world. Middle Easterners, Chinese, Indians, Africans... take your pick.

That would put a nice end to much of the crap spilt daily on the worldwide media (not to talk about the revolting Western PCness) and of which your and others' posts in this thread are a good example.

I am sure you, pampal and shochu would enjoy greatly a world working on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African values and principles and shaped on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African societies...

Al Azhar is a university and Islamic Learning Center, my friends Egyptian mother teaches Physics there, but you wouldn't know much about .

WHO DOES in the international scientific community?

Is Al-Azhar a center for the teaching of Physics of ANY worldwide relevance?

Agriculture comes from the middle east, Mesopotamia in particular, and that is not in Europe.

Domestication of animals also comes from the middle east.

ANYWAY:

When the Egyptians were building the pyramids, what was being built in Europe, maybe fires inside caves, but not much more.

Outside Ahvaz Iran, you can find 3500 year old pyramids, what are the oldest buildings in Europe?

Cnosso's and Festo's kings' palaces (in Greece) are OLDER than those piramids (1700 a.C.), others

are found for example in the island of Creta, there are countless remains of Greek acropolis and temples from 3000 years ago, the Greek Partenone is 2500 years old and the Roman Colosseo is 2000 years old. Rome itself is 2500 years old and Italian cities conquered by Rome are several hundred years older. Vetulonia and Tarquinia cities' walls (in today Toscana, Italy), for example, are 2900 years old.

There are vast irrigation works in Iran that date back 3000 years, can you find the same in Europe?

The qanat systems in Iran were transporting water over vast distances in hot deserts with minimal loss, what does Europe have to match that? And no the roman aquaducts are not even in the same league, they lose too much water to seepage and evaporation.

Egyptian irrigation systems are older than that and South (Peruvians) and North American ones are almost as old.

Wells and irrigation systems are a thing and sewage systems serving cities (which is what I was talking about) are another...

The Roman Cloaca Massima is 2600 years old. No other city had anything similar and certainly not Iranian ones...

Roman aqueducts were much more sophisticated than Persian qanat and served much more uses than them.

For example, the Ponte del Gard, built by the Romans 2000 years ago is a three levels 275 meters bridge part of the 50 kms long Acquedotto del Gard (the aqueduct is on the 3rd level) which has a carrying capacity of 20000 cubic meters of water per day...

BTW, in 2007 many Iranians have still to rely, 2700 years later, on qanats to get their water for village use...

The Chinese have the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, what does Europe or America have that can match that?

Match by which measure? Extension? Age?

In Europe we have for example the 2000 years old Roman built Vallo di Adriano and Vallo di Antonino, in the UK, but the longest of the two is "just" 120 kms since that was the total sea-to-sea span of the land the Romans intended to partition. Europe's dimensions aren't China's...

That's just a small list, if you would like to know more, all you have to do is ask.

How come the world is today ruled and dominated by Westerners and Western ideas and concepts of Greek and Roman origin and we are not talking Arabic or some Chinese dialect?

Pray tell, pampal, what is of any great worth and significance in the political sciences, economical sciences and scientific fields coming today and in the last half of millenium from Middle Easterners or Asians?

Europe's civilization, the youngest one of all of them, have emerged and took the lead because its ideas, concepts, values and principles are winners. They are... dare I say it... better.

At least, that is, if your personal idea of progress is the same one most nations and most individuals on earth aspire to...

PS: Oh yeah, even Christianity comes from the middle east.

Yeah, from the Roman Middle East, a then province of the Roman Empire...

Let's give credit where credit is due - a long, long time ago, the Persians and some around them made some wonderful advances in medicine, math and science. In modern history, I can't really think of anything.

In fact I wrote that "Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences. Arabs were between inverted commas because amongst them there were also Persians who are not Arabs.

Anyway, the first written forms of simple maths date as back as 1800 a.C. and are due to the Egyptians.

Egyptians and Babylonians have been the ones to advance maths until the Greeks took over in the VI sec. a.C with a fundamental paradigm shift: Egyptians and Babylonians' maths was purely empirical and their use of the numbers was exclusively directed at practical use like misuring and calculating the area of the last Nile's flood while with the Greeks we have the born of the abstract maths based on a logic structure of definitions, axioms and demonstrations. In other words, the modern maths.

The Greeks, later the Romans and after the fall of the Roman Empire again the Greeks, kept advancing it until the Arabs and Persians took over around the 900 d.C. basing their studies on the Greeks' work.

After the XVII sec. and the European Renaissance, Europe took definitely back the lead in maths and science (the lead that the Western world still firmly holds today) while the Arabs, Persians and in general the Muslim nations' cultures withered away practically and largely freezed in the Middle Ages...

A few things about history - the real history.

All I see here are twists and partial truths of the "real history" to suit your ideology.

First, most of the world's most important universities such as Oxford and Harvard still follow the traditions started at Al-Azhar.

Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?

BTW, Greeks have "invented" the very concept (and practice) of democracy and have had a dictatorship as recently as 30 years ago.

Islam has contributed far more to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment than anything the so called "whites" have contributed.

Probably what you really wanted to say (and still inexact) was "Arabs". This, in and of itself, says it all about the "real history" you are teaching us about here...

Islam has contributed NOTHING to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment from a Western and any other non-Islamic point of view.

"Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences and look where Islam have got them since its inception...

And as I have said before - the middle eastern countries excel in math and sciences. When I was a grad student I had to do three graduate level engineering courses and one was taught by an Indian and the other was taught by an Egpytian. Most of my friends who took sciences in school have had the same experiences.

Are you telling us that today's world's engineering is, in any significant part, of Indian and Egpytian origin?

Are you telling us that today's cutting edge engineering is the fruct of the researches, the studies and the works of Indians, Egyptians and other middle eastern countries?

Besides being taught by an Indian and an Egyptian teacher, have you studied on Indian, Egyptian or other middle eastern engineering books or authored by Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners?

How many of the most impressive feats of modern engineering Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners can claim to be the fathers of?

Second, the german barbarians routed and humiliated the romans - or did you forget that part of history.

Are you alluding to the periodic short-lived military adventures they attempted while being ruled by the Romans for half a millenium?

Their very name, the one you have just used and the one commonly used the world over, is the one the Romans gave them (from the Latin Germanus)...

Were Indians and Egyptians also your history teachers by any chance.....?

True "real history" pearls, shochu, well worth of Al-Azhar I'm sure

ive always liked the italian language btw, its a nice language

So how come you don't even know how Italians look like? Were you hearing it on the radio?

Heck, there are probably more tanning salons here than in Ireland since, as in any other Western Europe country, nowadays most folks prefer tanned skin to their own white skin thinking it's more beautiful, sexy etc.

The only difference is that here people can, for a big part of the year, get naturally tanned just going to the beach and liying under the sun that we have and most other Europeans have not

Ciao

so exactly how do spics rate on the gradient of whiteness?

If you are interested in such issues you should ask ThaiGoon and his whitening cream users countrymen, I have no time for this race based crap.

You might have not noticed it (and why does that not surprise me..?) but I was replying to ThaiGoon using ThaiGoon's arguments and ThaiGoon's speak...

i mean alot of u are pretty brown. better than thais i am sure, but below the irish i would estimate. i guess from your post you consider urself an honorary white, at least by association.

The vast majority of Italians are of Caucasian race, minorities (mostly in the South and the islands) are the results of the many contacts with other races from North Africa, Asia etc

Many Italians get tanned rather easily because (contrary to Ireland... ) we get a lot of sun but visit Italy in the wintertime and people will be as white as the Irish (probably not as "orangish" pasty though).

Are you in Thailand? Take a look at the Italian satellite channel "RAI International" and see what Italians look like since you have clearly no clue.

in a way thailand and italy have something in common from WW2, both countries tried to carve little empires of their own by clinging on to the shirt tails far greater powers, trying to stand on the shoulders of giants as it were.

See how much Thailand and Italy have in common: 2000 years ago my ancestors were building a millenary empire, were building roads, sewers and buildings that we can still see and in some cases use today, were conquering and ruling for more than a millenium most of the then known world, were founding and shaping the Western civilization and were refining the ars rethorica while longway's Anglo-Saxon ancestors were painting their faces and were shitting in holes in the ground and ThaiGoon's ancestors didn't even existed...

The earliest accounts we have of the Irish (and the Scottish, the Welsh and the English, amongst many others) is from Roman historians.

Guess where many (if not most) of the words of your very "own" language come from, longway (this is why it's so easy for Italians to build up an English vocabulary once they get a grasp of the English grammar and syntax).

Do you really thing, for example, that "language", "grammar" and "syntax" (linguaggio, grammatica e sintassi) are English words?

Longway, when you want to talk about empires like you have just pathetically tried to do thinking to "put me in my place", you (and the Thais) don't even have a word for it and use the Italian one: "empire" (impero, from the Lat. "imperium") is a word originated from a city 20 kms from where I am now (not in Ireland and not in Thailand) and we have had the longest lasting and farthest reaching (in any possible meaning) one...

Even with those experiences, my Thai friends and I still respect white students. We know that not all white folks are what you call white trash or what we call kwais.

Yeah, I too, even with my experiences, still respect brown students. I know that not all brown folks are what you call kwais or what we call monkeys.

We understand that a small sample of white people we had experiences studying with can't really represent the entire white population. We also understand that it has very little to do with race.

Especially since it's been mostly white people to invent, elaborate, organize, develop, put into practice and spread what you and your friends are now studying in white-people-land because you can't in your own.

Of course, we also understand that it has very little to do with race...

BTW, I would like for you to throw in my face the great achievements of all those tens of thousands of brilliant Thai students (who have OF COURSE studied ABROAD... -sic!-) you keep telling us about.

What have former brilliant Thai students used to piss all over their white classmates contributed for example to the engineering science? Or are they all still studying??

Having visited/lived in many countries from different parts of the world and having tried very many local cuisines I find it difficult to point a single one out as the absolute worst but, for my personal tastes, it's very easy to say that the overall best is the cucina Italiana

By far.

what is a third world ? who is the first and second?? and who initialy named tose countries as third world?

Is Thailand A 3rd World Country Still?

Enjoy.

is the first and second world better then the third? and what exactly nakes them "better"

You should ask all those 2nd, 3rd and 4th world countries which desperately want to become 1st world...

(You can start from Thailand and one of its former PM who proclaimed that Thailand would have reached 1st world status by the year 2xxx ...)

IMHO The sad thing is a crash course in the traditional Thai culture has no real use with educating newbies about the local lads in the holiday areas around the LOS. It is not part of the Thai culture to gang up and beat senseless single tourists, but it does happen in areas where large groups of people get together with booze, girls and other attractions, It is not part of traditional British culture, but pick on a local in Blackpool or a lad from a Fairground troop and it will happen. This is the message folk should be told, traditional Thai culture is a graceful. peaceful thing. But Patters, Samui, Phuckit and other " entertainment areas in the wee small hours aint no different to anywhere else in the world, act the fool, upset the locals and shi-t will happen.

I agree that we shouldn't educate (warn) tourists with fairy tales on the graceful and peaceful traditional Thai culture, we should educate them by showing real life examples and situations.

And in case you don't know, in the average Thai's everyday life fights and broader conflicts are not normally resolved by recurring to the police force and the judicial system, they are resolved by the involvement of relatives, friends, contacts and money. And outside of the bigger centers ("Patters, Samui, Phuckit") it's (and it's always been) even more the norm.

And that's talking about Thai-on-Thai situations. When a (preferably white) foreigner is involved, it's not a rare thing to witness bystanders who have f.uck all to do with the matter jumping to the help of their fellow Thais in the trashing of already vastly outnumbered foreigners. That's something I have yet to experience in a so consistent way in any 1st world country. I doubt for example that a minor road accident in Blackpool would possibly result in 8 local passersby beating up a single Thai/foreigner. You are of course free to provide proof of the contrary but I just know for a fact that such a thing has never happened in the big tourist destination, medium sized Italian city I am from.

Another reminder of why I would never live in Pattaya.

What makes you think that gangs of Thai men ready to jump into the beating up of a single Westerner are an exclusivity of Pattaya?

He was pissing in public, what stpid retarded..

Not any more than the countless "stpid retarded" Thais I've seen doing it all over the country...

Another fkcd up whitey losing our faces here

And another 7-8 brave and surely sober and model-citizens browneys ready to gang up and savagely beat up a single drunk Westerner.

I wish news of this kind were prominently and extensively reported in the foreign press complete with Thai-style gore pictures of the aftermath for the foreigners and the final legal outcome for all the parts involved.

It may help tremendously to "educate" (like many here seem to wish) the "stupid" foreign tourists on both how to behave while in the "Land of Smiles" and what really means being in a 3rd world country with a 3rd world culture and 3rd world laws, police force and judicial system...

The main problem is both Spain and Italy, is that the crackdown comes too late, and also that often one layer of government (normally the local council is colluding), but the illegality of building without planning permission has been known for twenty-five years at least and it is clear the buyers did not exercise due diligence - I suspect the typical British belief that Johnny Foreigner does not have laws like civilized Anglo-Saxon civilizations had something to do with it.

You don't know what you're talking about.

In Italy it's pretty much impossible to leave someone (ESPECIALLY old couples of retirees or families with children...) stranded "under a bridge". Laws practically don't allow it.

Try as a landlord to evict someone (it doesn't make any difference, of course, if s/he is an Italian or a foreigner or even an illegal!) who isn't paying his/her rent since months!

For example, the only recent high profile and very public case of authorities demolishing illegal properties has been a high rise condo illegally built practically on a beach in, IIRC, Puglia (south Italy, how strange...). Even in this case, it has taken the authorities YEARS of legal battles with the developers and the owners before finally demolishing it AND it was not finished yet (work was halted at the start of the legal case)! Nobody was living there and nobody has been left homeless.

Moreover, in Italy there is the "nice custom" of periodically giving "condoni". I.E. the possibility to regularize your position/building by paying very small (compared to the value of your property) fees and submitting the exact planes and other docs relative to what you have effectively built...

I have no idea about Spanish laws and about what's actually happened in Valencia but if the central govt and the EU hasn't done anything in such a high profile case I suspect it can't be something as bad as someone is trying to portray it here by comparing it to what absolutely right-less foreigners face in Thailand.

I for one can only hope that the stupidity esculates to such a scale, that reciprocal measures are passed against Thai citizens in Western countries.[/color][/size][/font][/i]

Yesterday Chineses were protesting and waving PRC red flags in Milan's Chinatown (after a riot they started over a parking ticket one of them got 2 days ago). I guess we should have told them "go back home if you don't like it here" instead of holding meetings with local and govt officials, their private and public(!) funded associations etc etc

A BIT OF RECIPROCITY WOULD DO WONDERS TO HEAL A LOT OF THE ISSUES WESTERNERS HAVE ABROAD AND FOREIGNERS HAVE IN THE WEST.

Just a short reply, I'm not trying to demonstrate anything, I was just reminding you (god forgive me)that what you see today in Thailand is what happened many years ago in what today we call civilized nations (1st world country if you prefer),

While it's certainly true that many similarities can be found between what you see in Thailand today and what you could see in Italy and in general in the West at a comparable stage of development the 2 kinds of societies, their history, culture, overall background and the values and principles they are based on and driving their development are so VASTLY different that I wouldn't know how to comprehensively write about them on a message board (but that I have many times touched upon in the past on this and other boards).

There is a wealth of sociological issues to consider and discuss here but since this is just a short reply and you are "not trying to demonstrate anything"...

but it seems you took it as a personal attack and you know it all too well.

Chill pill anyone?

I took it as a "personal attack"?!?

Get-a-grip pill anyone?

Thanks to Mid and Jetjock for getting the thread back on track. If the bargirl/nightlife discussion continues, this thread will be closed- it's off-topic and also an unwelcome topic.

"S"

It's never been, at least for me, about just bargirls/nightlife. I was reasoning in much broader terms and my initial argument was, I believe, very in topic.

As the mods please, anyway.

"You see, hundreds and hundreds of years ago the Moors conquered Sicily.... "

Yes, between the IX and XI sec.

I guess it was kind of a payback for the hundreds of years (about 600) of Roman rule they had been under...

You seem to forget that Italy(you are from Italy right?) was very similar 50 years ago,

Yes I'm Italian, now care to tell me what makes you think I'm forgetting anything?

people from south Italy are still called Marocchini (people for Morocco), or terroni (Farmers) in a offensive way.

SO WHAT?

Try in Italy to discriminate (for example in the work environment) against a dark skinned Thai or call him (or a dark skinned siciliano) a marocchino or a terrone and you will not only face the consequences of breaking the "general" laws regarding discriminations and verbal abuse but your legal position will actually be worsened by the fact that you have attacked an ethnic minority (there are specific laws protecting foreigners and any other kind of "minority" which make the penalties heavier if the same crime is committed against a minority, the same applies to any other western country I know of).

Then try to bribe the police force or the judicial system to win your case against the foreigner.

Then tell me how the media, if involved, present the fact.

Then tell me how the public opinion reacts to the fact.

Compare all of the above to the Land Of Smiles and tell me what are you trying to demonstrate.

This is a developing country ,plus LOS is a very close culture and that comes with pros and cons.

I know it all too well. I am talking about the cons.

Besides, if this wasn't a Thai based board I could just as well be talking for hours about Italy's or Western Europe's shortcomings.

And BTW I regard the kind of blind nationalism and (usually groundless) proudness of one's own country shown by Thais and many other people almost everywhere as sheer stupidity and ignorance.

You can't choose your homecountry but if you are lucky you can choose your "adopted" country and I for one, having extensively traveled and lived around the world, have found the United States of America the greatest country on earth and all going as planned will move back there in 2.5 years. Both countries don't require me to give up a citizenship to take the other but, if it was the case, I would gladly give up my Italian citizenship to become a US citizen.

And for those America-hating bashers, spare me the crap of pointing out to me the USA's many shortcoming, I'm well aware of them so if you like to see it this way, the USA are the "least bad country on earth".

Thailand (and anywhere else outside of the Western world) is nothing else than a (dangerous) playground, it isn't a place where the values and principles in which I believe are normally taught, believed, shared, practiced or even understood...

If/when the world will be ruled by non western powers and western values and principles (and the laws, the social structure and way of life that come with them) which we take for granted and which we regard as universal and universally shared will not be backed up anymore by economic and military power many daydreamers out there will have a harsh waking up. I hope not to be there anymore and live through it.

Dark skinned Isaan girls with exotic Isaan faces and taught, slim Isaan bodies are by far the hottest girls in Thailand.

Yes, definitely...

...for you and (it seems) the majority of others here.

We are talking personal tastes here. Unlike the Thais, we are not so heavily conditioned into conforming to some standard notion of beauty (which is, to boot, of a highly racist, classist and discriminating origin).

I for myself don't like dark skin and don't like the facial and other features displayed by many of the Thai ethnic groups.

For example, a huge turn off are, for me, the splayed toes of most upcountry folks. I don't have any foot feticism and feet don't play any particular role in my sexual activities, I just find splayed toes very ugly.

There is no reason to buy into the easthetic of a benighted local elite

- it simply has no meaning to the outsider from the big world.

True but it definitely has many, and often very deep and unpleasent, implications in the "Land Of Smiles"...

OK, I misunderstood your point. Now that I get your point, your point about "cast offs" and no Thai man wanting them is inaccurate.

What you say afterwards about the Thai nightlife is mostly accurate but what you are still getting wrong is the meaning of your (not my literal words) "no Thai man wanting them". They DO "PLAY" with them (especially when they are all they can afford, as is the average Thai's case) but they definitely do not marry previously married ex bargirls with children with the regularity and the "naturalness" the farangs do...

What the Thais can't get is why someone with resources to do better would publicly mingle with someone deemed of lower status.

This is to be taken in its broadest acception than "just previously married ex bargirls with children" and this is why I hadn't specifically mentioned the nightlife and the bar scene.

As a final note, the girl I mentioned in my post is not my wife, she is my GF. Why did I bring up her background - maybe I am tired of people thinking a Thai girl is a hooker just because she is with a Western man. You may not believe that, but that is the sense I took away from your previous post – sorry if I misunderstood.

This comes from a (true) stereotype and there is very little you can do about it except "taking it the Thai way" (if you believe in the Thai ways...): "mai pen rai", "jai yen-yen" and the rest of this c.rap.

I and my wife had to endure it as well wherever we were in Thailand and we have been able to forget about it only once we moved to my homecountry (Italy).

Here no one would dare to think of a young couple of 20-something y.o., both reasonably looking, well educated, well dressed and well behaved as a customer/hooker couple just because of the different ethnic background as most of the Asians (and certainly most of the Thais) NORMALLY do.

This is just another aspect of the wonderfully friendly, smiling, loving, caring Thai culture and society that you can appreciate and immerse yourself in in the Land of Smiles. Enjoy.

Not everyone is running around with what you described. But thanks for promoting the stereotype.

Is English not your mother tongue (as in my case)?

I have NEVER said "EVERYONE", I wrote "usually".

And yes, it is a stereotype and unless you are suggesting that the majority of the westerners in Thailand associate with the types that you describe and not with the types I wrote about methinks you are not actually contesting that it holds true, are you?

Besides, you have totally missed the point as Mr Dave has without success tried to show you.

larvidchr was trying to justify the ever more evident Thai xenophobia and worsening attitude against westerners saying that would be also our (Swedes', in his example) reaction if foreigners (i.e. Nigerians) came to our countries and took, thanks to their relative wealth compared to us, "our" most pretty and desiderable women who would "turn their backs" on us pursuing the foreigners' dollars.

I just showed him that his argument and justification for Thais' behaviour is totally groundless since we are USUALLY NOT picking up the best and most desiderable of their women (in their eyes, at least), we are in fact USUALLY associating with the LEAST desirerable ones.

I am married to a Thai girl and I didn't feel the need to clarify my wife's background, why did you?

If I did, that could have been taken to mean (I s.crewed the English up here, right? ) that I was looking down on the average "mia farang" and her farang himself and this is NOT the case. I was merely reporting a FACT to prove larvidchr's argument wrong.

So, unless there is someone here still willing to argue that we are taking the most pretty and desiderable (to Thai eyes) women I think we can flush this argument with the rest of the groundless apologetic c.rap often posted by deaf and blind daydreamers on these boards to defend undefendable Thai xenophobia, classism, racism, discriminations, unfairness, ruthlessness and economic stupidity.

this is Sweeden suddenly being swamped by black Nigerians, who with their newfound oilwealth desides that Sweeden is the place to be, allmost all the pretty tall blonde girls turn their backs on the Sweedish men

You are WAY OFF BASE here.

The Thai women who "turn their backs" on the Thai men aren't the "pretty ones". They are, lookwise, the least desirable for Thai men's tastes and they are also the least desiderable as wives since they have, usually, already been married (guess what, to a Thai...) and with child(ren).

Like it or not, farangs are usually picking up Thai men's leftovers, in Thailand.

To show that amongst farangs there is at least as much diversity as amongst Asians, my tastes are much more similar to that of the average Thai man than to what is the general consensus here on what Thai beauty is.

BTW, tall blondes are, in general, much more appealing to me (and to the average Thai and Nigerian) than any Asian...

P.S. And if you really want to see the Thai reaction to seeing foreigners taking "their" pretty women try going out with really good looking young girls. If you understand Thai you will hear very "interesting" comments from the Thai folk around you... And if you happen to do this in Thai places and you are young and not that bad looking yourself (= it means that she might have other reasons to stay with you and might even actually prefer you to Thais --> big deal for their faces and their self-esteem, much more acceptable if she clearly stays with you for your money) you may have "interesting" times...

Most of us came here initially because of an attaction to Thai spirituality and or Thai people

We are talking VV here but maybe you missed that - whatever!

The subject of the thread is clearly stated, the one who has maybe missed it is you. Whatever.

Unless your "What's good for the goose and all that" was meant to be good for just selected parts of the immigration laws...

The fact is you are meant to have at least a TV to cross a land border - its never been applied but the rules are there - their country and their rules and they choose to apply them when and how they want.

I think the requirements to stay in Thailand are easy enough to follow and qualify for if you play by the rules (that they choose to apply).

"They choose to apply them when and how they want."

That's the key. That's why they are bound to stay a 3rd world country and that's why you can't say "the requirements to stay in Thailand are easy enough to follow and qualify for if you play by the rules".