BAF

Dear BAF,

When you learn to formulate a discussion, then maybe this discussion would/could progress to some enlightenment.

Tried that a number of times, on this and other boards, under this and other handles.

It rarely "progresses to some enlightenment"

Why did I bother?

Part for fun, part to vent, part because I do appreciate those who "make the effort" and try to avoid others some unnecessary pain and hardship by offering their opinions, experiences and knowledge (the great thing about these m.boards)...

What is clear is you have a thought and no amout of discourse will affect IT.

May you live your life to your full content with your many various degrees which have taught you to make statments based not on research from a broad spectrum , but on your own vast/broad experiences whcih I'm sure include the exoerience of every office in the city of angels.

Perhaos your world is just that - your world - as punters frequent gogo bars, one can only wonder where your life hangs.

No need to wonder about that one, I've detailed my experiences in LOS in more than one occasion (just about in each and every thread where I have tried to have a serious discussion about Thailand and Thai society).

Search for it and comment on it if you are so inclined, it's all out in the open. No need to speculate (or hope?) about go-go bars and the like...

have a nice one

I'm havin' it... a very nice one, TNX...

Among other things your view that Thailand is just cheap women and cheap booze shows exactly what type of farang you are.

A smart one?

What do you have against cheap food and cheap women?

Some people on this forum are just beyond words. I expect because you have your degree in sociology you think you’re qualified to analyze Thailand, point out any slight cracks you may find and moan about it to your hearts content.

BTW, I do have words to describe Thailand, the Thais and the type of farang that you are. Maybe this is the difference between us (and my degree might have something to do with it...).

Its just getting stupid, actually now I think about it, it might be an advantage if you and your crowd keep up all the anti-Thai, Thai hate farang rubbish as eventually you might hate Thailand enough to actually go home and leave Thailand to people that actually like it.

I do not hate Thailand and Thais (I don't love them either)!

It's just you who think that loving them means keeping your eyes and your brains wide shut and defending them no matter what.

Sorry, I'm neither blind nor stupid.

Anyway, you will be delighted to know that I left Thailand and I am now home, you have Thailand all for yourself

As I wrote in the "My Visa Run" thread Thailand (or other similar 3rd world countries) is my Plan B.

Keep it up TG

Yeah, that's what I'm saying!

Viva Thai goon, viva the Thai culture and values (MAY THEY NEVER CHANGE! MAY THEY NEVER BE CONTAMINATED!) and down with the farang parasites!

In defense of my man ThaiGoon I'd like to say that he is much, much less "rabid anti-farang" than folks such as wintermute and others are rabid anti-Thai. His logic is sound when he states that he is living in the USA but does not feel the need to constantly criticise the country, the culture and its residents, while many who post here from Thailand are doing just that.

Even as an American living in Thailand I tend to see things more from TG's point of view than from the rabid anti-Thai crowd. There's plenty of students from families of privelege in the US living the hardcore party life and graduating from top unis without much of a clue (can you say Gee Dubya?) so Thailand is hardly unique in that regard.

Keep fighting the good fight TG -- I'm with ya all the way!

I have met plenty of self-deluded daydreaming western parasites in my time in Thailand but you know what? I too am actually with you and Thai goon!

If it wasn't for the thinking of people like him Thailand would actually progress and its culture would actually evolve towards that of a 1st world country and LOS would cease to be the "cheap booze cheap girls" great playground that it has long been

I (together with the higher class rich Thais) actually enjoy and reap the benefits (for the rich, that is) of the Thais' classism, poverty, greed, ignorance and stupidity.

As a farang, I unfortunately have to bear the xenophobia and racism cultivated and exploited bu the ruling class to keep the evil westerners (and the progress and the cultural changes that always come with them) at bay and continue to ensure their total control of the country by keeping it as much as possible as it is. Why don't they shut us off completely? Because they know that by doing so they would be ruling a 4th world s.h.i.t.hole and who want to be the upper class of Ethiopia or the China of few years ago?

Seriously, I support the Thai goons and the Hengs of Thailand. Without them and the cheap cost of living (and boozing and whoring) that comes with their view of Thailand and the rest of the world there is little that interests me in Thailand.

Food, weather, scenery? MUCH better at home for me.

Personal relationships, working environment etc? I understand what many of you like in this regard in today's Thailand but keep in mind that once Thailand gets richer the attitude of the average Thai whould shift towards that displayed today by the already rich Thais. And if you have ever seriously been around them rich upper class folks you woudn't be talking about "mai pen rai", "greng jai", "jai yen" and all the rest of this crap as typical and true Thai values... They are just cultural tools, the tools of the rich by which they handicap the masses of their subjugates and keep them under control.

You have a preview in what's in store for you in those future times by seeing how your average "poor" Thai treats, thinks of and talks of "lesser beings" as for example the Burmese or Cambodians...

They already are richer, more powerful and "better" than them and see how they are "mai pen rai", "greng jai" and "jai yen" about them...

It doesn't take my farang degree in sociology to see all of this... or does it?

PS In sociology, one of the best indexes of the socio-cultural degree of development of a society is how they treat the women. Need I to say more..?

I think it is very irresposible to make such broad statements.

Rote learning has been acknolwedged to be very positive in certain aspects - such as math and engineering classes. IIT in india is the premier school for tech in the world - students who can not get in can easily get into MIT in the U.S. Many north american engineering students go to europe and fail because their standards are so far behind them. Also many local kids who can not get into chula or the other top schools vcan easily get into top programs abroad and if they have the money do so. Yes some will get good jobs when they come back

I just finished touring architecture depts in bangkok and can tell you that the students work very hard and know their stuff and can compete with the students at harvard or AA in London.

Do you know what "broad statements" are?

They are generalizations meant to define the average, the standard, the medium level.

Is architecture your area of expertise/knowledge? Would you say that, in general, the average Thai architect is of the same level of the average American or western European architect?

This is what those "broad statements" are all about.

My areas of expertise/knowledge are IT and "tech stuff" (worked in this area for a while, both in Italy and the US), liberal arts (hold a degree from Italy on this one), paramedical area (getting a degree, again in Italy, as a professional nurse). Trying to compare what I see/have seen in Western Europe and the US to what I have seen in Thailand is, well, an absolute joke...

Thai standards, procedures and knowledge are, simply put, generally abysmal. And that's, FWIW, my professional opinion.

Why does an intelligent, rabid anti-farang insist on posting in a predominantly farang forum?

I believe I have the answer: inferiority complex. Another one of the many typical Thai traits our fellow board member shows.

I bet he isn't much interested in discussing about his homecountry with the farangs he meets and knows in the US who have never been in Thailand, he wants to do it with us and prove us how bad we are and how good LOS and the Thais are

What he doesn't realize is the "logic" he displays and the arguments he uses are but a constant confirmation and reinforcement of the opinion many of us have about Thailand and the Thais...

I don't go and live in a foreign country and then try to damage or tarnish that country and her people's reputation/image by spreading lies and false rumours on the internet. The word, parasite, pretty much explains itself really.

I've been reading your posts on TV, Thai goon.

It's exactly because of people like you that I wish that the West in general, and my homecountry in particular, would RECIPROCATE all the s.h.i.t. we get from 3rd world countries like yours.

(Even if that meant that my Thai wife, currently working and living with me in Italy, would have to prove an income of 10000 euro/month (the Italian equivalent of 40000 baht/month in Thailand compared to the average Thai salary) in order to be allowed to live 1 year with her husband.)

That would take care and "fix" very many of the issues that are always being discussed here...

- Swiss don't extort money from each other. This is simply a business not known here. Go to Italy.

Then go back to Switzerland to safely deposit your loot...

Agree, but these are not very relevant for us on this forum. Strong humanitarian reasons are usually invoked for asylum seekers and refugees and their families.

Nope, they are mentioned separately as another 2 cases which grant exemption (and their own class of PR indeed). So "strong humanitarian reasons" alludes to something completely different.

I have taken the above from official Norwegian websites.

BTW, this of the asylum seekers and refugees is another area where Thailand completely disregards the international obligations they are under and which they themselves have signed.

Compare their misdeeds in this area to what Norway, a country with a population of 5 just million, does...

The issues for unemployed but married/cohabitants are illustrated in the examples below:

Anyway, the issues are similar and in any case is not of much interest, for our argument, to go into them in too deep details if we both agree (like it seems below) that whether we are talking about visas or PR, Norwegian laws and Thai laws are worlds apart.

My point was not related to the visa. My point is that many countries allow you to buy a property even if you do not have a visa to stay in that country. Many people buy property in Thailand, then get upset because they are not allowed to live in it afterwards. This situation is not unique to Thailand. I was a bit imprecise in the use of the word "house". That was not the key point though. I am aware of the propery purchase rules in Thailand regarding ownership of condos, land etc.

Agree?

[...]

I do point out that Norway have a similar issue as Thailand - you are fairly free to buy a house (more free than in Thailand), but that doesn't mean you necessarily will be allowed to stay there.

Well, we were definitely NOT talking about the issue of visas in regard to ownership of property, it all started with the question of the dual citizenship (at least the argument amongst us)

On the point that many countries allow you to buy a property even if that doesn't grant you a permit to stay in that country yes, I agree with you, it's true. My own homecountry allows it as well.

Where things are different from, for example, our own 2 countries and a country like Thailand is that Norway and Italy aren't changing their immigration laws (and most importantly their interpretation and everyday practical application) every other day.

A lot of people have bought property in Thailand because they were legally allowed to stay in Thailand and then suddenly it all changed without provisions for the ones caught in the middle (which is all too very typical of banana republic 3rd world countries).

Heck, at first even those specifically on a investment visa (CONDOS) weren't grandfathered!

I don't think it was unclear to me in the first place, and can't remember to ask for it to be clarified. I do of course know that it's much easier for a spouse of a Norwegian to move to Norway, than it is for a spouse of a Thai to move to Thailand. I do agree that the rules are unfair, and appears not very clever.

I still believe that Thailand is not very unique in its visa rules or property ownership rules.

No one ever said that.

Thailand's visa rules are very common in other 3rd world countries and Thailand's property ownership rules (in regard to visas) are common also with other western countries BUT with the huge exception that all you can own in Thailand is a condo (and with many limitations to boot).

Slightly irrelevant, but funny example: It's only until a few years ago that a foreign woman with Singaporean husband could get a Singaporean PR, but a foreign man with Singaporean wife could NOT get a PR.

Singapore is not a western country nor, exactly for issue like these, a 1st world country...

And BTW, Thailand still has parts of the immigration laws which discriminate between males and females.

Nothing funny in this, just further proof of how much growing they have to do to exit the full fledged 3rd world country status they firmly and "proudly" hold.

The only problem is, they are going everywhere but in the right direction...

My understanding is that you can get Norwegian PR with ease if (these are the key, relevant conditions)

- you are married to a Norwegian citizen

- you live in Norway, with your Norwegian spouse, continuously for 4 years

- the Norwegian spouse have his/her own accomodation and a job

- you do not spend more than 7 months outside Norway in total during this period

- you do not have a single trip of more than 3 months outside Norway during this period

If you live with your parents, it's difficult. If you don't have a job, it's difficult. If you, like me, move around with work frequently, it is very difficult.

You left out, amongst the other exemptions from the subsistence requirements:

- You are the spouse or (EVEN!) cohabitant of a Norwegian citizen, provided that both parties are aged 23 or over, or the child of a Norwegian citizen

- There are strong humanitarian considerations

And, like Thailand and UK, (AFAIK) you can buy a house without a visa. It is your own responsibility to consider whether to buy a property or not, if you don't have a visa.

I do not see that Thailand is in any unique position in that respect.

SORRY?

Thailand is certainly not in any unique position if you compare it to the other 3rd morld countries, but it definitely is if you compare it to western countries like I guess it's here implied.

They give out a max of 100 PR per year for each nationality and comprehending the total quota for whatever reason you are asking your PR for!

Besides, the trickiest part is to comply with their uninterrupted continuous stay of x years requirement as it is VERY difficult (and going to be ever more difficult) to achieve that.

We also do not automatically give out any visa to people who invest in property (e.g. Malaysia style).

Norway doesn't need to...

All in all, I don't get your point.

If staying in Thailand, for a spouse of a Thai citizen, was half as easy as staying (and getting the many benefits and rights) in Norway for a spouse of a Norwegian citizen you wouldn't hear many people complaining about the Thais' unfairness and sheer stupidity.

Why stupidity are you asking?

Easy (and I thougth very obvious and clear for all to see): because while Thai spouses of Norwegian citizens are usually TAKING from Norway, Norwegian spouses of Thai citizens are usually GIVING to Thailand and because Norway is a country which grants many rights and benefits to its citizens and their spouses and Thailand is a country which grants very few rights and benefits to its citizens and almost none to their spouses.

I can't believe I really have to point all of this out...

Norway, one of the top 3 richest countries in the world (depends a bit on how you measure) generally does not allow dual citizenship. That said, there are some room for exceptions.

As I wrote "the western countries I know of", I didn't know about Norway's laws in this regard.

Anyway, to prove the important points: can you confirm that a spouse of a Norwegian citizen can, with relative ease, get PR and, if so he/she wishes, citizenship?

Now, to get back briefly to the dual citizenship issue, like you say there is some room for exceptions. You can hold dual citizenship in Norway:

- if you are born with dual nationality because you have Norwegian and foreign citizenship through your parents (for example a Norwegian mother and a foreign father)

- if you are born to Norwegian parents in a country that applies the territorial principle (anyone born in a country becomes a citizen of that country) In that case, you can have both Norwegian citizenship and citizenship of the country of your birth.

- if you have applied for Norwegian citizenship and it is not possible for you to renounce your original citizenship

- if a child born before 1 Septmeber 2006 becomes Norwegian by notification.

All of this has never been possible in Thailand under their previous no dual citizenship laws (which, BTW, have been changed very recently and for the reasons outlined, reasons which would hardly apply to Norway...).

Precisely what have YOU done to benefit Thailand that did not benefit YOU more first.

[...]

You seem to think it is unfair that they Thais don't feel grateful to you for living in their country and giving them the pleasure of making you happy. Is that your right?

You say that the message is clear, give us your money and get out. Let me ask you again, truthfully, what did you ever give to Thailand that didn't benefit YOU first. Was any benefit to Thailand only a secondary consideration to your own pleasure first? Be honest about it.

I must have missed the part where he says he is some kind of missionary...

Why should he be doing things that do not benefit him first?

BTW, Thais living in our own countries aren't requested to be doing things that do not benefit them first and IMO they shouldn't.

That said, I am all for reciprocation. I do believe that's the only effective way of dealing with 3rd world cultures like Thai's...

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

I wouldn't find it a particularly interesting poll since the western countries I know of all allow dual citizenship. The countries that make you give up your citizenship, if you were to take up another one, are, AFAIK, all non western. (And doesn't that tell us something..?)

IIRC, Thailand was one of those which weren't allowing dual citizenship, but it is now. The reason, of course, is not some kind of moral question or a pass towards opening to foreigners, it is (written black on white) that they were losing "valuable" citizens (the ones residing AND EARNING AND OR ACCOMPLISHING SOMETHING, abroad)...

I, for one, would not take up Thai citizenship (even if it was as easily obtainable as in my own country) because I wouldn't be proud to be Thai, quite the contrary in fact.

But I definitely would take (and do want) PR as I consider it one of my basic human rights as a spouse of a Thai national and possible father of Thai citizens.

It wasn't easy PeaceBlondie, but I got Thai citizenship for my two kids in the 80's (who were born in Bangkok). It took 5 years for one, and 3 years for the other with numerous visits to Santiban, letters from government officials, etc.

Assuming their mother is not Thai: how viable a option do you think getting Thai citizenship by birthplace right is for us or yourself?

Assuming their mother is Thai: great, it took 5 and 3 years for 2 Thais to be recognized as Thai!?! That, in of itself, speaks volume about how easy it is to get Thai citizenship for foreigners...

My apologies BAF. I was confusing you with the Original Poster who said he owns condos already.

It's allright, no probs. Just couldn't understand the sudden change of tone

hel_l if you can live in Italy why move to mangy Thailand.

Why? Easy: when I was single (I like to say "free" ) my lifestyle was completely different from the one I have now. In short: booze, parties, travels and girls (not in that particular order...).

(Love really is a terrible thing )

Many 3rd world countries are (for many reasons, not only economic ones) the ideal playground for that.

If I had a better income I would move out your way for a while.

Well, let's just say that what I am missing from Thailand are certainly not the weather and the food, can't beat home

Frankly (and I know how this will sound to many) the ONLY really good reasons I can see to live in a place like Thailand are cheap booze, cheap girls and the "right" cultural setting for a relatively moneyed fellow -whether a local or a foreigner- to enjoy them both.

Honestly, I have no other reasons to be in Thailand or in other similar 3rd world countries.

But back to the subject its not that hard to get by here. You could get the ED visa and never go to school. Yes its true. I did this very thing. Signed up for a massage school and gave them a deposit and got the paperwork. Got my Visa in the states and when I got to Thailand they changed the schedule and when I said I could not do the new schedule they gave me my deposit back. Even if you had to eat the deposit then its more than offset for the low cost of living here. You just need to look at the overall cost of living. Believe me after living here for a few years going for a tourist visa run will help you keep your sanity and give your diet some much needed variety.

Good luck with your decisions !!!

As I said this is an interesting possibility to secure a pretty good stint in Thailand (and I may be interested in this one) but alas it's no base for a 20 years plan...

I hope I won't need to resort to my Plan B but thanks anyway and good luck to you also, really hope it all works out OK in the end for you expats enjoying your life in LOS!

Okay now I know your full of it. Your 30 years old and too lazy to go on Tourist visa runs? Give me a break.

Okay now I know you are another one of those pathetic daydreamers who can't stand the realities of their (fake) smiling Thai paradise being thrown at them...

Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt the need of getting personal.

So what if its not in writing they will keep doing it.

What choice do you have?

The choice of another, less risky country.

You already supposedly invested in a condo etc. You can't spend 40K baht a year and 4 short trips to Malaysia to get a TV? Yeah right.

NOT because I'm lazy and I don't want to make those "short" trips.

The ED visa is not hard at all.

And it isn't a sure back to back thing at all, either...

Enroll at the school and they give you a letter and you head off to a foreign consulate. If you can get to your home country they give you a multi and if to a SEA consulate they give you a single and you can extend in country. That is too hard or complicated for you? I have done this and its a piece of cake. Are you an invalid?

To each his own.

Guess "It's not the effort, is the precariousness of it all that is discouraging.

Lately there have been nothing but red flags for the exapts in LOS..." was a bit too hard to comprehend. I apologise for my English.

Lots and lots of people get ED visa's back to back.

Yeah, and lots and lots of people have WPs. So what?

Trying to tell me those are also child's play to get and keep?

Ever hear of a university?Massage schools? Language schools? Muay Thai training? Oh it costs to much. Oh bull. If you can scrape together 10K baht for a nonrefundable deposit you can get the visa.

Just on the fact that you are cheating them to get a visa you are not supposed to get UNLESS, of course, you are telling me that I should force myself to like and to do things I do not like and would not do if I didn't need them to get a visa.

It sounds like work to me. Keeping me busy and spending my time on things I need to do to keep my visa instead of the things I like and I want to stay in Thailand for.

And this is your solution? Freaking brilliant.

My guess is you don't have a condo or a car and probably not much money. Your just a troll. Get a life BAF

OK, if it makes you feel better: I DO NOT have a condo and a car in Thailand (and never claimed to), I live in a villa in centre Italy (8 kms from the beach, Adriatic Sea, valued recently at around € 750.000), I own a car (medium-small sedan automatic diesel) and I will inherit another house divided into 4 apartments for which we collect 4 rents. My parents have 2 good pensions and they let me take 3 of those rents. I am your classic spoiled brat who has never really worked in his life and just traveled (a lot) the world

I am currently back at the uni getting my 2nd degree which should allow me (the 1st one is useless) to move with my wife to the USA where I have been holidaying/working for a long while in the past (and which I absolutely love).

You are right in that I haven't much disposable income at the mo, but I would if I were to go with my Plan B (I would sell the villa and would still have those 3/4 rents as a not so big but safe and constant stream of monthly income).

agree with you "why would you buy a condo and car in Thailand" ? before you have a real visa situation. Why not rent?

Because if I were to move back I wouldn't want to be living (and to feel) like a camper.

I prefer to live in my own condo where I can do, organize, manage, modify, fix etc as I please, that means that I would live a much more comfortable and pleasant life. The same goes for the car (I like cars).

Why should I force myself to give up all of that for 20 years of my life (the best 20 years of my life)?

It's much better even from an economic point of view, assuming of course the govt won't rob you, in a way or another, of your assets (and that's, admittedly, a big assumption in 3rd world countries like Thailand).

You just have to make it for a few more years until your 50 and can do a Non Imm for retirement.

For me anyway I am 45 so have to figure something out for 5 years. Sure if your enrolled in education program the Thai government wants you here.

WHY would they?

Lots of people have and continue to do this. If you get a non imm ED(multi) and stamp it before its expiration then you can get 15 months out of one Visa.

Anyway it still is not a solid base on which to plan 20 years of one's life.

For me if I get a year or so of TV's and another ED and then some more TV's and another ED then I am at 50 and can qualify for the Retirement option.

Assuming it's still there and under the same (or not much worse) terms...

Try using a hybrid strategy. Start researching a school program you like and be ready if they stop issuing tourist visa's but so far they seem to be fine issuing back to back TV's. Even if you have a Non Imm Visa you still have to stamp out every 90 days(exceptions where you can just check in on some visas). If you go somewhere for a new visa every 90 days its just a little more effort.

Lately there have been nothing but red flags for the exapts in LOS...

But by all means if your not happy here and can't see a way to make it work then move somewhere else. I know in Vietnam you can get a 6 month business visa for around $250 and you don't have to make any border runs. You just need a sponsor and thats pretty easy to get. Its a communist country so you can't buy real estate but why not invest in financial instruments anyway. Just rent and be care free. Check out the mountain town of Dalat which is north east of HCMC. Very nice weather and town and even cheaper than Thailand.

Many other places you might like. Costa Rica, Argentina, Panama, Chile, Brazil, Malaysia will give you residency if you buy a 55K USD home. Lots of choices out there. You could simply try a few countries and come back when your retirement age. You might even find a place you like more.

Yeah, lots of alternatives around and actually been in most of the places you mention (although mostly for short stays) and many more that you don't but for several reasons I would prefer Asia over LatAm even if Brazil is very tempting (and Italian being my native language I would have a very easy time learning Spanish/Portuguese, and that would be a huge plus...).

Vietnam is very attractive...[/b]

Been there a couple of times, very short stays, didn't get a good impression from the people (they resemble too much the Chinese ). They seemed unfriendly and unpolite but as I say, very short stays.

Worth checking for sure.

You still have options. Enroll in university and get a Non Im ED visa or just spend a little money and go to Penang/KL/Khota Baru every 90 days and get a Tourist Visa.

First of all, the first option is more costly of the second and still involves visa runs every 3 months.

Secondly, neither of them is a "sure thing".

Now, while I do realize that there are very few "sure things" in Asia, betting the next 20 years of your life on back to back Tourist Visas (this one already seems impossible judging by some of the posts around) or cheated ED Visas is too much for my tastes.

I wouldn't trust them to allow me an uninterrupted stay of 2 consecutive "careless" years on back to back TVs or ED Visas, let alone 20 years!

Would you settle in a foreign country, buy a condo and a car and in general organize your life only to see everything put at stake every 3 months when you must leave the country without knowing if the embassy (with its own policy and its very own interpretation of the "clear" laws) you are going to visit will allow you yet another TV or cheated ED Visa and later the random officer at the boarder (still with his own interpretation of the laws) will stamp you in?

I certainly would not, and will not.

[double post]

I'm confused. You married or unmarried?

I'm married. As I wrote, moving back to Asia is my Plan B.

Plan A is to live in the West with my wife and to have a "normal" lifestyle.

Plan B would kick in if for whatever reasons I and my wife parted ways.

(BTW, for me having childrens for whom I cared would be, alone, a good enough reason NOT to live in Asia...)

Philippines and Cambodia...you can have them. Two not very nice places to live, but if you think they are in the same league, then more power to you.

Besides the fact that IMO Thailand is rapidly losing all its positives over those 2 places (and the latter do have their positives anyway) as I just wrote: even if I would prefer LOS I CANNOT stay in Thailand since at present THAIS DO NOT WANT young, unmarried, healthy and wealthy men spending time and money in their country.

In case you still haven't got it, the choice is the Thais' not mine. More power to them.

Where there's a will, there's a way. You can:

Get married...

Find a girl and then have a kid so you can another reason to stay...

Unless you are gay then...

Keep your apartments, go back to the west, rent them out and then come back when you are 50...

** IF ** you want to stay you can find a way

You and the others who in the many threads on this matter come up with such nonsense talk about those "options" like they were some kind of minor "trick" or legal paperwork in order to get a visa...

Getting married and/or having childrens are as big a decision as divorcing one's wife and/or abandoning one's childrens. Would you and the others talk as lightly as you do now if in order to be able to stay in Thailand you were forced to divorce your wife and/or abandoning your childrens? (Which is, incidentally, exactly what is going to happen to those not able to come up with 40k per month...)

The fact is and remains that for a young, unmarried, healthy and wealthy man willing to spend an extended period of time in Thailand NOT WORKING (i.e. "TAKING") but SPENDING (i.e. GIVING!) THERE IS NO VISA.

Thais don't want them!

Thais are keeping them out!

This is the simple, undisputable truth.

The why is anybody's guess.

At the moment I'm living in the West (Italy) with my Thai wife and everything is just about perfect and moving back to Asia is just my "Plan B".

The ONLY remaining reason why I am still considering Thailand (where I have lived for an extended period of time) is because I know the lingo, the place and the people very well. It took a huge effort and I am not willing to start it all over again if at all possible.

But it now seems that even if I would still want to choose Thailand (notwithstanding all the very bad news coming of late and the bad changes I have witnessed in the last 5 years) I couldn't spend my time and my money in LOS since I am well under 50 and I would come to Thailand unmarried, with no need (and no will) to work and presumably with no intention of getting married again (and certainly not within the first 3 months...).

As things stand now, I would be undecided between the Philippines and Cambodia with Thailand completely out of the picture...

...and out of my pocketbook.

Pele has compained about the playing style of the Italians

Well, Italy is Brazil's closer contender for the crown of best ever football nation ever...

Respected German magazine Der Spiegel called them 'parasites' and 'mamma's boys'

Well, Italy has just been over Germany and have beaten them in the majority of the times they have been one against the other...

What about some good old fashioned FACTS to get things into perspective and better understand the true values on the field?

There are just 7 teams to have ever won the World Cup and they are, in order from the most successful one to the least:

1. Brazil:

world champion 5 times

2nd place 2 times

3rd place 2 times

4th place 1 time

2. Italy:

world champion 4 times

2nd place 2 times

3rd place 1 time

4th place 1 time

3. Germany:

world champion 3 times

2nd place 4 times

3rd place 3 time

4th place 1 time

4. Argentina:

world champion 2 times

2nd place 2 times

3rd place never

4th place never

5. Uruguay:

world champion 2 times

2nd place never

3rd place never

4th place 2 times

6. France:

world champion 1 time

2nd place 1 time

3rd place 2 times

4th place 1 time

7. England:

world champion 1 time

2nd place never

3rd place never

4th place 1 time

Ciao e viva l'Italia campione del mondo!

Most other academics or experts in their fields, even rocket scientists, (such as the guy I am meeting this weekend, who has held a speed record with the X15 rocket plane he designed for over 30 years) really enjoy sharing as much as they know about something in a surprisingly humble and easy to understand way.

Perhaps political science is an exceptionally difficult subject to grasp and perhaps unlike rocket science it is too difficult for someone like me to have explained to them, that certainly is possible.

Perhaps that rocket scientist friend of yours is not trying to explain rocket science to you over an online message board and perhaps you are actually listening to him and following his arguments and his logical line of reasoning instead of trying to prove him wrong (on something you admittedly know nothing about) coming up with misread, misunderstood, inconsequential stuff you "discover" in random web searches...

I think this topic has run its course.

And that's really the only thing we can agree on, this thread has reminded me why I rarely post on public message boards.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you have learned something. What it may actually be, that you have learned, is what scares me

Ciao

* I don't know as much about the other examples, except for Singapore and Japan. Singapore is a developed, industralized, authoritarian country, and does not have a free press. Japan recently had a ruling (several months ago), that a long-term, legal Korean resident of more than 30 years could not accept a promotion to a top nursing managerial post in Japan, because a Korean or foreigner could not exert that kind of authority over *higher-level Japanese employees.

This is the kind of things I was alluding to when I wrote earlier in the thread: "Certain aspects of today's Japan aren't much different from what they were before and from what the rest of Asia has always been. For example, look at their laws RE citizenship..."

Strange how thedude doesn't seem too well impressed by these all too typical "ancient eastern culture" traits that Japan manages to retain

I think the terminology is just a matter of PC semantics in most cases, except in places where using the term is actually a mistake, such as Singapore.

As you say in another post Singapore "is a developed, industralized, authoritarian country, and does not have a free press".

Until they resolve the latter two "minor details" (real and fully implemented democracy and freedom of speech and press, among the others) the label NIC (which entails the fact that Singapore is still a 3rd world socio-politically developing country) is more than appropriate.

Incidentally, it scores even worse than South Korea in the area of women's rights.