Israeli couple blame Thai lawyer after Koh Samui arrest

3 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Someone sees others doing it and the lawyer 5rand real estate telling them that it is legal.

Did the lawyer really say it is LEGAL or did the lawyer say the nominee structure is tolerated because it is looked on by the powers-that-be to be advantageous to have foreign money invested in the community that otherwise might not occur.

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think clients have a case if the lawyer did not clearly explain the schemes were not strictly legal so had a future risk.

These are possible criminal prosecutions; not civil claims against a lawyer.

Edited August 22Aug 22 by JerryM

Just now, JerryM said:

These are criminal prosecutions; not civil claims.

So lawyers advising to do these schemes should have no culpability?

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So lawyers advising to do these schemes should have no culpability?

No. They have possible criminal culpability but it is not the same as proving the foreigner's culpability.

Thailand foreign Business Act - Section 36. Thai National who Assist in Non-Sanctioned Business

But it's all in here:

Edited August 22Aug 22 by JerryM

30 minutes ago, khunPer said:

I wonder how people with huge investments and larger companies — international school and numerous pool-villas sound like some kind of size and not a peanuts-level of investment to me, but amount of money is of course relative — are not up-to-date with the laws they are acting under. In my POV it is fully their own fault, if they continued to run a set-up with nominee shareholders.

Agree. While the average retiring couple might not have known the nominee system was illegal, the bigger players like you outline would have to know. It's normal due diligence to dig through the paperwork and the laws to make sure your big-money investor is:

1. getting his money's worth (of course)

2. that everything is legal, above board, and will not cause problems or loss of resources going forward - at least to make sure they are making fully informed financial decisions.

It would beggar belief that a multi million dollar foreign investor building a community of high end villas, a school, community facilities would have left this up to some local lawyer to say it's all a-okay.

These property developers know perfectly well they're operating in a legal gray area, circumventing local laws, and believe that if nothing has happened so far, everything is legal. No mercy, sorry!

I am seeing so much shameless HYPOCRISY in the f-rang blaming the clients of expert respected Thai lawyers for what has happened to them.

Why?
Because I reckon easily 90 percent and probably more than 99 percent of f-rangs residing in Thailand have done "grey area" or even not so grey area legal violations here with the expectation that such things are never enforced against.

Actually not an unreasonable expectation of non-enforcement either.

I'm not going to detail all of those things. If you lack the imiagination to know what I'm talking about, I pity you.

So if/when these same Thai-ier than Thai / Thai flavored Stockholm syndrome brigade f-rangs are shockingly hit with an enforcement crackdown nobody saw coming --- will they be blaming themselves?

Not a flippin' chance.

Edited August 22Aug 22 by Jingthing

4 hours ago, riverhigh said:

When I first came to Thailand 20+ years ago, I was told by a well-regarded expat That "Thailand is for Thais". So often has this statement rang true. Great place to retire but not a good place to set up a private business unless you are an international company in compliance with the Foreign Business Act.

Doesn't this ring true for every country in the world? "________ is for _________" The word doing a lot of work here is "compliance." That is the problem when the proven belief is that the laws are all "nod and wink" and often completely ignored by authorities, since it helps the Elite / Hi-So/ Developers make boat loads of money. Until, the phone rings from "Above" and "Effective Immediately, the Law applies and will be enthusiastically enforced!" (Until the target group is eliminated) Let's keep it real, the modern Housing and Condo explosion was built on top of "looking the other way."

Edited August 22Aug 22 by JustinTyme
Explain better

First they come for the large corporations, then the little guy eventually,"where did the money come from for Thai wife to purchase?" The dream is over,Thailand for the Thais. Yet still see houses for sale aimed at farangs, case of blind leading the blind

19 minutes ago, WilliamSmits said:

Nothing happened when few expats used this structure to buy a house.

But once whole villages are developed, and foreigners behave like they own the place... some reaction was due to happen.

The laws are all here. Implementation is a matter of time

I've seen Gentrification occur in another country. Foreigners don't know the local price or Value for real estate. Say it's cheaper than my home country and buy.

Drives prices up for everyone and locals. Pushes some locals farther out or in less desirable areas.

Read a comment about the Nominee structure being used for decades. So has the Thai government overlooking Taxes on Foreign Sourced Income. Thailand either has or is establishing computer systems to access and share data across multiple platforms. Things are changing.

Not saying it's right or wrong we just have to prepare or make changes when needed.

Typical spoiled brats....passing the blame on for their irresponsible behavior and lack of attention to details. They should have done some basic research and forgot the Prime Directive...."Trust No One".

Look at Goa ,15 years ago,the world and his wife buying everything,cheap and more luxurious than Thailand, 5 starred condos pools galore,then officialdom cleared the lot out in two years flat. That's how I ended up in Thailand,but sold up twice the price I paid for it to an Indian,Indian tax man after me,bought some shares in Indian stock market,that truly rocketed in 18 month period,good life ,did the rounds,but now glad to be back in UK

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Ha ha, that's the way, plead ignorance.

Smart enough to property develop, not smart enough to know basics laws 😂

Accuse the lawyer of being antisemitic. Works every time.

When you think about it, it’s proper funny – or rather, a right oxymoron. A Thai ripping off an Israeli!

When a lawyer gives you advice it's just that, and that never absolves you of responsibility. They knew that a nominee company ownership was dicey and they proceeded anyway, just like thousands of others.

There are thousands of Israelis with companies in Thailand, many of them concentrated on Koh Phangan, which has been almost completely taken over by Israelis. I think it's progress in the right direction for the authorities and the Thais to be fighting back at this point.

Just say no to Israel and its people.

5 hours ago, Brettoj said:

I can’t believe all the comments saying that you’d know better than the Thai Lawyer and accountants. That is why you use them so you operate within the law like in all countries. That is where the real crime is, the lawyers etc that arranged these deals!

Well, yes, and no.

Yes because in general one would follow the advice received from licensed professionals.

No, because it has been common knowledge for years that the course of action advised to these foreigners ran afoul of basic Thai law and were high risk, particularly when practiced on the scale these people seemed to be doing, effectively building a small enclave with residences and a school etc.

So, choosing the right advisor is as important as following their advice. And then just using commonsense and doing a simple google search would reveal that in this instance, the advice was dodgy.

In addition, there have been many announcements from successive Thai governments that they intend to stamp out the use of companies with nominee shareholders to circumvent Thai laws. The warnings have been numerous and public over several years.

Hence, many on here have no sympathy for these people, because they ignored or did not look for some very basic warning signs.

18 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

When a lawyer gives you advice it's just that, and that never absolves you of responsibility. They knew that a nominee company ownership was dicey and they proceeded anyway, just like thousands of others.

There are thousands of Israelis with companies in Thailand, many of them concentrated on Koh Phangan, which has been almost completely taken over by Israelis. I think it's progress in the right direction for the authorities and the Thais to be fighting back at this point.

Just say no to Israel and its people.

Why don’t we just ignore the nationality and all the baggage that brings and focus on a couple of foreigners flouting Thai law.

5 hours ago, jcmj said:

I believe that this is all happening because Auntin dislikes Foreigners and wants to clear them out, or at least a big chunk of them. Maybe it was never an issue until more bigger and bigger projects, land and companies have been bought or built. I can see going after the big companies and land buyers, but I don’t think they should be going for the typical family homes of foreigners and their Thai children. If they start going down that alley then whoever uses an agent to finance their retirement visa’s should be very concerned.

Let’s hope he or they don’t get carried away. Only time will tell, but I do agree that anyone who is even thinking about starting a business should be looking elsewhere.

If you are using an agent to finance your retirement extension and don’t hold the money in your own name and I know several people in this situation, you are knowingly breaking the law.

So why do you believe that one group of foreigners, or nationality, should be treated differently ?

1 hour ago, bruce123123 said:

First they come for the large corporations, then the little guy eventually,"where did the money come from for Thai wife to purchase?" The dream is over,Thailand for the Thais. Yet still see houses for sale aimed at farangs, case of blind leading the blind

My understanding is that foreigners are allowed to own houses. It’s the land that they can’t buy.

I haven’t looked into it but I think the common understanding put out is that the land can be legally rented for 30 years.

Various schemes are touted about being able to rent for 30 years with an option to rent for a further 30 years, although I believe that is debatable in terms of it’s legality.

So building houses for foreigners is fine if they are prepared to buy a house on land that they can only rent for 30 years.

This is just off the top of my head, I haven’t researched it lately. But I think it’s about right.

And then there are some foreigners who are happy to “buy” houses in the name of their wife or girlfriend. Despite the risks.

So yes, houses aimed at foreigners continue to be built.

6 hours ago, BMW Overlander said:

Yes, it’s always someone else’s fault—anything to avoid taking responsibility or acknowledging wrongdoing and criminal conduct. Blaming others instead is a typical Israeli trait.

In the years that I have lived here I have found that Thais typically refuse to accept responsibility when things go wrong as it’s all related to saving face.

However as a retired lawyer I don’t think it’s an uncommon trait amongst many nationalities and particularly politicians, perhaps just human nature.

4 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Not a single word that the Thai lawyers and accountants who knowingly broke the law have been arrested too. Only foreigners. Strange, that. In the real world people trust lawyers to act within the law and don't expect them to do the opposite. I'm not saying that the 'beneficiaries' of unlawful behaviour by the lawyers are always entirely innocent, but if one party involved is arrested then why not both?

EDIT: I see in another thread about the same thing that in Pattaya authorities are investigating a law office.

And, therein lies the rub.

I'm NOT defending these people and I know nothing of Israeli law but as an example, in UK, doing one's due diligence includes consulting a reputable lawyer and taking their advice. I presume these two naively assumed the same applies in Thailand.

Again, in UK, there are ways of establishing the competence of said lawyers to avoid future problems.

In Thailand, I wonder how one goes about that, assuming one does not speak / read Thai and /or knows some influential people who truly are independent.

Then again, they may well have known that what they were doing was illegal but, were taken in by the "everyone does this here" MO.

27 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

So why do you believe that one group of foreigners, or nationality, should be treated differently ?

The current nominee crackdown -- in many cases -- originated with a formal complaint by an ""injured party".

That has yet to happen with the agent assisted "discretionary" retirement extension.

If all these people were so keen to buy a place rather than rent (which is a much beter deal - even over time), they could have bought a condo. All legal. Of course the nicer condo developments are aimed at foreign buyers - all the signage is in English. And it is why they are so expensive - not many Thais can afford 10 million THB for a condo - and they are priced high for that reason. Some 40% will remain unsold, so those who do buy are making up for the lost revenue by overpricing them. Now maybe there aren't many condo developments on Samui. I don't know.

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So lawyers advising to do these schemes should have no culpability?

They have probably covered themselves with some cleverly written clause, My chartered accountant back in the UK to whom I paid thousands over the years ,had a clause in their contract that stated the final responsibility for the accounts rested with me they all do .

An elderly couple contemplating their retirement here would easily be taken in by a cleverly written " yes you can own your own home in Thailand" brochure advertising legal services

However those involved in property development on an industrial scale will have been well aware of the risks

...Then That Should Be The Same Plea/Defense For The Thousands Of Others That Have Already Had Their Assets Confiscated... (?)

...Furthermore It's A Little Different When A Particular Nation States Publicly "We Will Take Over Your Country & If You Try To Resist We Will..."... (?)

(Happening All Around The World Concurrently...) (?)

You should have emails and documents from your lawyer giving you bad advice. Sue them after you are released...