Cider

[rak sa_ngop]

I always remember how my father's home grown apple juice used to turn naturally into cider after a few weeks, even when kept in a fridge in the UK, unfortunately often with devastating results on guests that used to come to visit.

Although imported cider is pretty ridiculously over-priced here I see that apple juice can be bought for about 60 baht a litre and apples are also on sale at a reasonable price.

Has anybody tried making their own cider here? Any tips please?

[jayenram]

I've been thinking about brewing cider for some time now. I understand that the ambient temperature in the summer months is too hot but at the moment it should be OK.

However, I haven't got a clue as to where to buy brewer's yeast out here in the sticks.

[rak sa_ngop]

I've been thinking about brewing cider for some time now. I understand that the ambient temperature in the summer months is too hot but at the moment it should be OK.

However, I haven't got a clue as to where to buy brewer's yeast out here in the sticks.

At the moment I am trying an experiment to see if I can kick off natural fermentation by mashing an ordinary apple in with shop bought juice. Too early yet for results.

[percy2]

I'll be interested to see the result.

Won't the preservative in shop bought juice be a problem?

Good Luck

[loong]

Please let me know where you can get apple juice at 60 Bt per litre. I've only seen that 25% stuff. I would have thought that fresh apples would be expensive as you would need a lot of apples to make a small amount of cider.

If you have success, then please share. I love the odd glass of cider.

Some time back my sister had juiced a few boxes of windfalls and some time later, I was horrified to see her throwing it away! She told me that it had gone off and was cloudy. LuckilyI had got there just in time, had a taste and was the best cider ever!

Never been able to repeat it though, so I thought that it was just a lucky accident.

Good luck

[rak sa_ngop]

Please let me know where you can get apple juice at 60 Bt per litre. I've only seen that 25% stuff. I would have thought that fresh apples would be expensive as you would need a lot of apples to make a small amount of cider.

If you have success, then please share. I love the odd glass of cider.

Some time back my sister had juiced a few boxes of windfalls and some time later, I was horrified to see her throwing it away! She told me that it had gone off and was cloudy. LuckilyI had got there just in time, had a taste and was the best cider ever!

Never been able to repeat it though, so I thought that it was just a lucky accident.

Good luck

You can buy Malee 100 percent apple juice, made from concentrate, no added sugar, no preservatives, no artificial colouring for 58 baht per carton at Foodland. Other more expensive brands with 100 pc juice are also available.

You can currently buy Chinese? apples on the street (Silom) for about 50 - 60 baht per kilo, so you should be able to make fresh apple juice for about this price per litre if you buy direct from fruit markets.

Are you are now juiced up with excitment?

[The Dan Sai Kid]

If I made cider I would then have to make blackcurrant cordial to put in it!

Edited January 8, 2007 by The Dan Sai Kid

[texpatriate]

If you have a little extra money in your pocket you can pick up and extra refrigerator and install an external theromstat to keep the temperature at 55F.They are very popular with home brewers here in the US.

I usually like to pitch Champagne Yeast when I make cider at room temperature.

If you ferment in a fridge you might consider using Lager yeast.

-texpat

Edited January 8, 2007 by texpatriate

[Tim207]

Here is a link someone posted a while back. It is reported to be a manual distributed to oilworks in "dry" Muslim countries that teaches them how to make their own liquor. Near the bottom are directions and recipes for wines, including apple. Not sure if that is exactly what you are looking for but it is an interesting read that explaims the processes in detail. With that knowledge you should be able to produce your cider reliably.

http://www.expats.org.uk/features/theblueflame.html

Good Luck

[PeaceBlondie]

From a T-total abstention from alcohol booklet, I read that fruit turns to alcoholic beverages only when left in presence of yeast, at a certain range of temperature, for a certain period of time, preferably sealed, etc. In other words, grape juice turns to vinegar rather than wine if not properly tended.

Who needs alcoholic cider or wine? What's wrong with fruit juice? Do some people need to be drunk to be productive or functional?

[Ulysses G.]

Apple Cider with no alchohol is much more delicious.

Alchohol ruins the taste!

[loong]

You can buy Malee 100 percent apple juice, made from concentrate, no added sugar, no preservatives, no artificial colouring for 58 baht per carton at Foodland. Other more expensive brands with 100 pc juice are also available.

Thanks for the info, I usually buy the cans and didn't notice that the cartons were such good value

[jayenram]

Who needs alcoholic cider or wine?

Me.

What's wrong with fruit juice?

It's too sweet (unless it's lemon or grapefruit juice)

Do some people need to be drunk to be productive or functional?

Unproductive and dysfunctional more like.

[cdnvic]

Who needs alcoholic cider or wine? What's wrong with fruit juice? Do some people need to be drunk to be productive or functional?

Alcohol tends to remove sanctimony.

[rak sa_ngop]

I'll be interested to see the result.

Won't the preservative in shop bought juice be a problem?

Good Luck

Success!

Just unscrewed my first test 390 ml plastic bottle and it gushed out like Champagne. Sparkling apple juice, still a bit sweet and not very alcoholic (I think), but proves that natural fermentation can work.

As I posted earlier, I mashed some fresh apple (skin included) and added to Malee 100 pc (from concentrate) apple juice. I assume that the fresh apple is needed to provide some yeast, otherwise the juice would ferment by itself in the carton. How they stop it from fermenting in the carton I don't know as the cartons have about a 12 month shelf life.

The bottle I opened was kept at about 29 deg C room temp for 4 days only and I noticed the first bubbles on the 3rd day.

I have a second test bottle in the fridge but on unscrewing this bottle after 4 days there was no sign of 'life' at all.

Caution: The pressure in the successful bottle was fantastic, so maybe need to kick off fermentation in the heat first for a few days and then transfer to the fridge to complete the fermentation. More work needed on this one.

So now I am off to Foodland to buy some more apple juice! Hopefully it is still on offer at 58 baht/litre

Ho Ho Ho

[PeaceBlondie]

Who needs alcoholic cider or wine? What's wrong with fruit juice? Do some people need to be drunk to be productive or functional?

Alcohol tends to remove sanctimony.

I self-righteously defend my right to be holier than thou.

But long before I had thought about alcohol that much, as a teenager, it made no sense at all. Sweet drinks taste much better than sour drinks. Now, back to my Pepsi Max......

[Nawtilus]

Some people need to be drunk to be reproductive with some people, functionality becomes a problem but.

[Ijustwannateach]

I miss cider- good thread- keep us posted, Rak!

[Nawtilus]

Soi 7/1 has bowmans cider, great taste, but goes down toooo easy.

Soi 18 has an Irish one I think Bullmans or something similar, tastes and smells like vomit, so does not go down so easy.

[roamer]

I'll be interested to see the result.

Won't the preservative in shop bought juice be a problem?

Good Luck

Success!

Just unscrewed my first test 390 ml plastic bottle and it gushed out like Champagne. Sparkling apple juice, still a bit sweet and not very alcoholic (I think), but proves that natural fermentation can work.

As I posted earlier, I mashed some fresh apple (skin included) and added to Malee 100 pc (from concentrate) apple juice. I assume that the fresh apple is needed to provide some yeast, otherwise the juice would ferment by itself in the carton. How they stop it from fermenting in the carton I don't know as the cartons have about a 12 month shelf life.

The bottle I opened was kept at about 29 deg C room temp for 4 days only and I noticed the first bubbles on the 3rd day.

I have a second test bottle in the fridge but on unscrewing this bottle after 4 days there was no sign of 'life' at all.

Caution: The pressure in the successful bottle was fantastic, so maybe need to kick off fermentation in the heat first for a few days and then transfer to the fridge to complete the fermentation. More work needed on this one.

So now I am off to Foodland to buy some more apple juice! Hopefully it is still on offer at 58 baht/litre

Ho Ho Ho

Congratulations!!! Where theres a will theres a way. Tip if you want to ferment at room temp you would find an airlock fitting useful that lets the CO2 formed out safely. I happened to see some plastic ones in a shop that sold school science supplies. Democracy monument heading towards KSR, big school book store on right, science bits upstairs. they might also sell yeast, also saw brewers yeast tablets in a health food shop somewhere.

Keep up the good work!!!

[texpatriate]

... they might also sell yeast, also saw brewers yeast tablets in a health food shop somewhere.

That yeast is probably already dead.If you are planning on actually drinking home made cider you really need to use a decent ale or wine yeast.Have someone back home mail you some dried yeast from a homebrew shop.It's cheap and easy to mail.

AVOID BAKERS YEAST LIKE THE PLAGUE!

-texpatriate

Edited January 16, 2007 by texpatriate

[sceadugenga]

I'll be interested to see the result.

Won't the preservative in shop bought juice be a problem?

Good Luck

Success!

Just unscrewed my first test 390 ml plastic bottle and it gushed out like Champagne. Sparkling apple juice, still a bit sweet and not very alcoholic (I think), but proves that natural fermentation can work.

As I posted earlier, I mashed some fresh apple (skin included) and added to Malee 100 pc (from concentrate) apple juice. I assume that the fresh apple is needed to provide some yeast, otherwise the juice would ferment by itself in the carton. How they stop it from fermenting in the carton I don't know as the cartons have about a 12 month shelf life.

The bottle I opened was kept at about 29 deg C room temp for 4 days only and I noticed the first bubbles on the 3rd day.

I have a second test bottle in the fridge but on unscrewing this bottle after 4 days there was no sign of 'life' at all.

Caution: The pressure in the successful bottle was fantastic, so maybe need to kick off fermentation in the heat first for a few days and then transfer to the fridge to complete the fermentation. More work needed on this one.

So now I am off to Foodland to buy some more apple juice! Hopefully it is still on offer at 58 baht/litre

Ho Ho Ho

Congratulations!!! Where theres a will theres a way. Tip if you want to ferment at room temp you would find an airlock fitting useful that lets the CO2 formed out safely. I happened to see some plastic ones in a shop that sold school science supplies. Democracy monument heading towards KSR, big school book store on right, science bits upstairs. they might also sell yeast, also saw brewers yeast tablets in a health food shop somewhere.

Keep up the good work!!!

The trick with brewing beer was you had a primary fermentation in a sealed drum with an airlock, when it stopped bubbling you bottled it with a teaspoon of sugar and sealed the bottles, allowing a couple of weeks for the secondary fermentation which produced the gas. I'd go back into production, it would be easy enough to bring a kit here but finding malt and hops would be the problem. Cider would be a cinch though, all you would need is the yeast.

[rak sa_ngop]

I have just 'finished off' my first few bottles of 'cider' made from apple concentrate. As I explained before I used a fresh apple to provide some natural yeast to start the fermentation process. About one apple for one litre of apple juice. This took about 3 days to ferment at 30 deg room temp. I used 500 ml screw top plastic bottles and periodically unscrewed the tops to reduce the pressure build-up. Once fermentation looked near complete I screwed down the tops and left the bottles in the fridge to settle. (Total of about 5/6 days)

The result was a bubbly sweet apple juice with probably only a small amount of alcohol. A satisfying result and very encouraging, however the taste was too sweet for my liking. (I prefer strong dry cider)

I think that one apple does not provide enough yeast for complete fermentation. If you have a large supply of apples (and a juicer) you could probably mix fresh apple juice and apple juice made from concentrate and get a stronger cider result.

Currently I am now experimenting using dried baker's yeast, which one poster warns "to avoid like the plague". So far all I can report is that the fermentation took off like a rocket. I have now transferred the first few bottles to the fridge after only 2 days of room temp fermentation. Will report on the final results shortly.

Now of to Foodland to buy some more apple juice!!

[Stabbo-Lad]

I have just 'finished off' my first few bottles of 'cider' made from apple concentrate. As I explained before I used a fresh apple to provide some natural yeast to start the fermentation process. About one apple for one litre of apple juice. This took about 3 days to ferment at 30 deg room temp. I used 500 ml screw top plastic bottles and periodically unscrewed the tops to reduce the pressure build-up. Once fermentation looked near complete I screwed down the tops and left the bottles in the fridge to settle. (Total of about 5/6 days)

The result was a bubbly sweet apple juice with probably only a small amount of alcohol. A satisfying result and very encouraging, however the taste was too sweet for my liking. (I prefer strong dry cider)

I think that one apple does not provide enough yeast for complete fermentation. If you have a large supply of apples (and a juicer) you could probably mix fresh apple juice and apple juice made from concentrate and get a stronger cider result.

Currently I am now experimenting using dried baker's yeast, which one poster warns "to avoid like the plague". So far all I can report is that the fermentation took off like a rocket. I have now transferred the first few bottles to the fridge after only 2 days of room temp fermentation. Will report on the final results shortly.

Now of to Foodland to buy some more apple juice!!

Any update on this? How did the second batch turn out?

[rak sa_ngop]

I have just 'finished off' my first few bottles of 'cider' made from apple concentrate. As I explained before I used a fresh apple to provide some natural yeast to start the fermentation process. About one apple for one litre of apple juice. This took about 3 days to ferment at 30 deg room temp. I used 500 ml screw top plastic bottles and periodically unscrewed the tops to reduce the pressure build-up. Once fermentation looked near complete I screwed down the tops and left the bottles in the fridge to settle. (Total of about 5/6 days)

The result was a bubbly sweet apple juice with probably only a small amount of alcohol. A satisfying result and very encouraging, however the taste was too sweet for my liking. (I prefer strong dry cider)

I think that one apple does not provide enough yeast for complete fermentation. If you have a large supply of apples (and a juicer) you could probably mix fresh apple juice and apple juice made from concentrate and get a stronger cider result.

Currently I am now experimenting using dried baker's yeast, which one poster warns "to avoid like the plague". So far all I can report is that the fermentation took off like a rocket. I have now transferred the first few bottles to the fridge after only 2 days of room temp fermentation. Will report on the final results shortly.

Now of to Foodland to buy some more apple juice!!

Any update on this? How did the second batch turn out?

The second batch turned out reasonably well using bakers' yeast from Foodland, although there was a slight bitter flavour. The main problem I have found seems to be the high room temperatures which means that fermentation is very fast and difficult to control.

I have recently brought back a few sachets of cider yeast from the UK but have not had the chance to try them out.

Now that the room temps are even higher, I think I will leave further experiments for later, maybe Xmas?

Any other experimenters out there?

Edited April 7, 2007 by rak sa_ngop

[jayenram]

I had the following brought in from UK last week:

Young's Brew dried active yeast

and

Young's Brew super wine yeast compound

all I need now is some kind of fermentation container and I'll give it a go. I'm told the wine yeast is better for cider.

[IMA_FARANG]

I'll be interested to see the result.

Won't the preservative in shop bought juice be a problem?

Good Luck

From my limited knowledge of making various types of wine/acoholic fruit juices in Saudi:

1. Avoid if possible any juice with preservatives or artificial flavoring in it. The best apple/grape juice is 100% juice. NO PRESERVATIVES. It costs more but it's worth it.

2. You do NOT need "brewer's yeast". The Saudis never allowed brewer's yeast to be sold in stores, but you could buy "baker's yeast". It works fine. Yeast is yeast.

3. The container you use for fermenting MUST be AIRTIGHT. Airtight seal with plastic hose out going through a water bootle trap (say 3/4 filled with water) so that the bubbles rise through the water to vent the gas from fermentation was what I used.

4. Cleanliness is important. Sterilize the container you ferment in. Then wash it clean and dry it before you start.

5. Your biggest enemy is foriegn or "wild" yeast" or bacteria from the air. It can ruin a batch quickly.

6. Yeast eats sugar and turns it into alchohol. Ergo: sugar becomes alchohol.

7. If you do get a good ferment (it takes trial and error) be very careful to drain off the results with a minimum of sediment. Careful work and time pays with good results.

8. Anyhow, you will probably have to strain the final result thru filter paper to get the rest of the sediment. Let the product sit at least a week (maybe two) before you do the final filter and drink it.

9. Don't ferment it at a high temperature or in direct sun. Doesn't need to be cooled however. I used to get a good fermentation at 90 degrees plus fahrenheit or so just sitting on a kitchen shelf. But again IT MUST BE AIRTIGHT.

Good luck

Edited April 17, 2007 by IMA_FARANG

[sceadugenga]

If the sole intention is to produce alcohol bakers yeast will do that. The final product will tend to be a bit bitter though, yeast, unfortunately, ain't yeast as the wild yeasts prove.

A cooler slower fermentation certainly gives better results, not sure how to achieve that in a hot climate though, possibly under the aircon. There's a lot of good home brew sites on the net with techniques and recipes a plenty for the enthusiast.

[percy2]

From Wiki

Beer

Beer brewers classify yeasts as top-fermenting and bottom-fermenting. This distinction was introduced by the Dane Emil Christian Hansen. Top-fermenting yeasts are so-called because they form a foam at the top of the wort during fermentation. They can produce higher alcohol concentrations and prefer higher temperatures, producing fruitier, sweeter, ale-type beers. An example of a top-fermenting yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, known to brewers as ale yeast. Bottom-fermenting yeasts are used to produce lager-type beers. These yeasts ferment more sugars, leaving a crisper taste, and grow well at low temperatures. An example of a bottom-fermenting yeast is Saccharomyces uvarum.

For both types, yeast is fully distributed through the beer while it is fermenting, and both equally flocculate (clump together and precipitate to the bottom of the vessel) when it is finished. By no means do all top-fermenting yeasts demonstrate this behaviour, but it features strongly in many English ale yeasts which may also exhibit chain forming (the failure of budded cells to break from the mother cell) which is technically different from true flocculation.

Brewers of Bavarian-style wheat beers often use varieties of Torulaspora delbrueckii, which contribute to the distinctive flavour profile. Lambic, a style of Belgian beer, is fermented spontaneously by wild yeasts primarily of the genus Brettanomyces.

In industrial brewing, to ensure purity of strain, a 'clean' sample of the yeast is stored refrigerated in a laboratory. After a certain number of fermentation cycles, a full scale propagation is produced from this laboratory sample. Typically, it is grown up in about three or four stages using sterile brewing wort and oxygen.

[edit]Distilled beverages

A distilled beverage is a beverage that contains ethanol that has been purified by distillation. Carbohydrate-containing plant material is fermented by yeast, producing a dilute solution of ethanol in the process. Spirits such as whiskey and rum are prepared by distilling these dilute solutions of ethanol. Components other than ethanol are collected in the condensate, including water, esters, and other alcohols which account for the flavor of the beverage.

[edit] Wine

Yeast is used in winemaking where it converts the sugars present in grape juice or must into alcohol. Yeast is normally already present on the grapes, often visible as a powdery film (also known as the bloom or blush) on their exterior. The fermentation can be done with this indigenous (or wild) yeast;[19] however, this may give unpredictable results depending on the exact types of yeast species that are present. For this reason a pure yeast culture is generally added to the must, which rapidly predominates the fermentation as it proceeds. This represses the wild yeasts and ensures a reliable and predictable fermentation.[20] Most added wine yeasts are strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, however not all strains of the species are suitable.[20] Different S. cerevisiae yeast strains have differing physiological and fermentative properties, therefore the actual strain of yeast selected can have a direct impact on the finished wine.[21] Significant research has been undertaken into the develoment of novel wine yeast strains that produce atypical flavour profiles or increased complexity in wines.[22][23]

The growth of some yeasts such as Zygosaccharomyces and Brettanomyces in wine can result in wine faults and subsequent spoilage.[24] Brettanomyces produces an array of metabolites when growing in wine, some of which are volatile phenolic compounds. Together these compounds are often referred to as "Brettanomyces character", and are often described as antiseptic or "barnyard" type aromas. Brettanomyces is a significant contributer to wine faults within the wine industry.[25]

[edit] Baking

Yeast, specifically Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is used in baking as a leavening agent, where it converts the fermentable sugars present in the dough into carbon dioxide. This causes the dough to expand or rise as the carbon dioxide forms pockets or bubbles. When the dough is baked it "sets" and the pockets remain, giving the baked product a soft and spongy texture. The use of potatoes, water from potato boiling, eggs, or sugar in a bread dough accelerates the growth of yeasts. Salt and fats such as butter slow down yeast growth. The majority of the yeast used in baking is of the same species common in alcoholic fermentation. Additionally, Saccharomyces exiguus (also known as S. minor) is a wild yeast found on plants, fruits, and grains that is occasionally used for baking.[26]

It is not known when yeast was first used to bake bread. The first records that show this use come from Ancient Egypt.[27] Researchers speculate that a mixture of flour meal and water was left longer than usual on a warm day and the yeasts that occur in natural contaminants of the flour caused it to ferment before baking. The resulting bread would have been lighter and more tasty than the normal flat, hard cake.

Today there are several retailers of baker's yeast, one of the best-known being Fleischmann’s Yeast, which was developed in 1868. During World War II Fleischmann's developed a granulated active dry yeast, which did not require refrigeration and had a longer shelf life than fresh yeast. The company created yeast that would rise twice as fast, cutting down on baking time. Baker's yeast is also sold as a fresh yeast compressed into a square "cake". This form perishes quickly, and must be used soon after production in order to maintain viability. A weak solution of water and sugar can be used to determine if yeast is expired. When dissolved in the solution, active yeast will foam and bubble as it ferments the sugar into ethanol and carbon dioxide.

When yeast is used for making bread, it is mixed with flour, salt, and warm water (or milk). The dough is kneaded until it is smooth, and then left to rise, sometimes until it has doubled in size. Some bread doughs are knocked back after one rising and left to rise again. A longer rising time gives a better flavour, but the yeast can fail to raise the bread in the final stages if it is left for too long initially. The dough is then shaped into loaves, left to rise until it is the correct size, and then baked. Dried yeast is always used for bread made in a bread machine.

I'm going to have a crack today will report back.

[percy2]

Wiki is wonderful.

Fermentation

Fermentation is best effected at a temperature of 4 to 16 °C (40 to 60 °F). This is low for most kinds of fermentation, but works for cider as it leads to slower fermentation with less loss of delicate aromas.

Shortly before the fermentation consumes all the sugar, the liquor is "racked" into new vats. This leaves dead yeast cells and other undesirable material at the bottom of the old vat. At this point it becomes important to exclude airborne acetic bacteria, so care is taken to fill the vat completely, and the fermenting of the remaining available sugar generates a small amount of carbon dioxide that helps to prevent air seeping in. This also creates a certain amount of sparkle, and sometimes extra sugar, such as white cane sugar, is added at this stage for this purpose and also to raise the alcohol level. Racking is sometimes repeated if the liquor remains too cloudy.

Homebrewers can use elaborate 55 gallon plastic drums. More simply they use a 2 or 3 liter bottle of pasteurized store bought preservative free apple juice, add a touch of yeast, champagne ideally, and replace the cap after drilling a small snug hole for an airlock. For larger batches of hard cider, using a culligan water jug works well with the addition of a rubber stopper, or even a garbage bag, to keep the system sealed. The cider may then be racked by careful pouring and bottled with 3 tsp. of raw sugar into a 2 liter pop bottle to secondarily ferment for carbonation. Apple based juices with cranberry also make fine ciders.

The cider is ready to drink at this point, though more often it is matured in the vats for up to two or three years. Though it is perfectly tasty at around 2 months.