Getting Rid Of Farang Management

[Jet Gorgon]

To: Jet Gorgon

You go girl.........(sorry, couldn't help myself ) But you go anyway...

Oh, TL, is that go away, far, far away and get a new life , or is that a go get 'em go?

[chiang mai]

There has been a major trend during the past six years or so "localize" staff and to cut down the use of expat labour at all levels, where ever and when ever possible - this is particularly true of multi-nationals. The rationale for this is cost based since an expat costs several times more than a local equivalent. But an equally important part of the rationale has been the less than perfect behavior of seconded expats combined with their lack of knowledge of local customs and markets. I agree that the quality and knowledge comparison between an experienced expat and a local equivelant can be vastly different but on balance I think it's the right thing for them to do. From experience in this area, locals rarely learn much when mentored by an expat and probably better off learning through their mistakes and own their own.

[kmart]

Perhaps it's the inate arrogance of farangs who think they can manage Thai companies (with Thai staff and Thai customers) much better than . . ummm . . Thai managers, that makes them want to get rid of farang management. An arrogance which is summed up in this thread.

Having seen examples of farang managers in Thailand (loud, uncouth, wearing shoddy suits and stinking of beer from last night's whoremongering), I don't blame them for getting rid of them.

This thread is a disgrace.

Bendix _ I could not agree more farangs managers are generally only in Thailand to either escape something back home - or they could not get a job of similar status back home - or they just want an extended social life at the expense of the Thai company.

What absolute rubbish! Don't know which sector you work in, but generally management for a foreigner here can be much more stressful than "back home" as you put it. Social life is nothing to do with it.

The weak point of most Thai companies is always their Thai management, who have generally achieved their position and status through nepotism and age alone. Ability alone is never seemingly factored into promotional movement and a lot of local managers enjoy a status, ego, and position that is inversely proportional to their ability.

[bendix]

Perhaps it's the inate arrogance of farangs who think they can manage Thai companies (with Thai staff and Thai customers) much better than . . ummm . . Thai managers, that makes them want to get rid of farang management. An arrogance which is summed up in this thread.

Having seen examples of farang managers in Thailand (loud, uncouth, wearing shoddy suits and stinking of beer from last night's whoremongering), I don't blame them for getting rid of them.

This thread is a disgrace.

No.

You are a disgrace. Every post I have read of yours is too. God bless the person that cuts your internet conmnection...

Ouch. Did I touch a nerve?

[Jet Gorgon]

Perhaps it's the inate arrogance of farangs who think they can manage Thai companies (with Thai staff and Thai customers) much better than . . ummm . . Thai managers, that makes them want to get rid of farang management. An arrogance which is summed up in this thread.

Having seen examples of farang managers in Thailand (loud, uncouth, wearing shoddy suits and stinking of beer from last night's whoremongering), I don't blame them for getting rid of them.

This thread is a disgrace.

Bendix _ I could not agree more farangs managers are generally only in Thailand to either escape something back home - or they could not get a job of similar status back home - or they just want an extended social life at the expense of the Thai company.

What absolute rubbish! Don't know which sector you work in, but generally management for a foreigner here can be much more stressful than "back home" as you put it. Social life is nothing to do with it.

The weak point of most Thai companies is always their Thai management, who have generally achieved their position and status through nepotism and age alone. Ability alone is never seemingly factored into promotional movement and a lot of local managers enjoy a status, ego, and position that is inversely proportional to their ability.

I concur. If you are here to do a specific job, other than ESL teaching, it is more stressful trying to meld cultures and biz and do a good job for the company. Same same anywhere in Asia.

[bendix]

I concur. If you are here to do a specific job, other than ESL teaching, it is more stressful trying to meld cultures and biz and do a good job for the company. Same same anywhere in Asia.

Well, i disagree. Managers have to adapt to suit the environment in which they work. If you accept you're managing in Thailand and not try to impose your western sensibilities onto a Thai audience, there are no major issues. At least that's my experience.

I think we forget that we are the foreigners here, not them.

[Jet Gorgon]

I concur. If you are here to do a specific job, other than ESL teaching, it is more stressful trying to meld cultures and biz and do a good job for the company. Same same anywhere in Asia.

Well, i disagree. Managers have to adapt to suit the environment in which they work. If you accept you're managing in Thailand and not try to impose your western sensibilities onto a Thai audience, there are no major issues. At least that's my experience.

I think we forget that we are the foreigners here, not them.

I think that was the message I conveyed. Trying to blend and adapt, Bendix.

[pampal]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot 

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

[markuk]

Perhaps it's the inate arrogance of farangs who think they can manage Thai companies (with Thai staff and Thai customers) much better than . . ummm . . Thai managers, that makes them want to get rid of farang management. An arrogance which is summed up in this thread.

Having seen examples of farang managers in Thailand (loud, uncouth, wearing shoddy suits and stinking of beer from last night's whoremongering), I don't blame them for getting rid of them.

This thread is a disgrace.

Bendix _ I could not agree more farangs managers are generally only in Thailand to either escape something back home - or they could not get a job of similar status back home - or they just want an extended social life at the expense of the Thai company.

or like myself you get sent here to do a job and your given a choice, go to thailand or leave the company. So i am not escaping anything, i could get a better job at home and i do not wish to have an extended social life, there are better places in the world for that.

So your talking rubbish.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

What would improve Thailand is if we replaced all the Thais with farangs, replaced the Thai television with foreign television (not UBC but the real thing).

Then somehow cut Thailand off the continental shelf and floated it up somewhere in the North Sea.

[kmart]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

They are mostly sent here by their companies. Not by choice. To look after their companies interests overseas. This may change in the near future due to the new laws on limited foreign stakes in companies here.

Are you real?

[Mid]

Then somehow cut Thailand off the continental shelf and floated it up somewhere in the North Sea.

are you completely mad ????

Brrrrrrr 'now muck muck , mai sabi khup.

[pampal]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

They are mostly sent here by their companies. Not by choice. To look after their companies interests overseas. This may change in the near future due to the new laws on limited foreign stakes in companies here.

Are you real?

What data led you to believe that most are sent here by their companies?

And if they are sent by their companies, presumably against their wishes, why would they mind going back?

So think Again

Edited January 10, 2007 by pampal

[kmart]

I concur. If you are here to do a specific job, other than ESL teaching, it is more stressful trying to meld cultures and biz and do a good job for the company. Same same anywhere in Asia.

Well, i disagree. Managers have to adapt to suit the environment in which they work. If you accept you're managing in Thailand and not try to impose your western sensibilities onto a Thai audience, there are no major issues. At least that's my experience.

I think we forget that we are the foreigners here, not them.

This is true. Good managers have to adapt to their local culture and climate anywhere in the world. Stress notwithstanding. However, if you are servicing and producing high standard goods or services for export to other Western markets then you have to motivate and impose those standards on your local workforce too. This can cause conflict, but again good management will find a way.

[steveromagnino]

Most investors I know would never put money into a Thai run company unless it had farang management.

Do you want millions of dollars controlled by Thais with sub-standard education and a history of corruption? Would you take the chance?

Errrr NO.

Yeah, you really wouldn't want to invest in companies like PTTEP, PTT, Land and Houses, Asian Properties, Precious Shipping, Tricon etc; after all as an investor you wouldn't want to make massive returns in the last 5 years or so from companies that know what they are doing/have been massively undervalued at various periods during this time.

After all, Thai management can't possibly compare to the grace, skill and ethics of farang managers at companies like Enron, or the massive returns that companies like the dot coms managed to deliver to their investors as they collapsed like a stone in the meltdown.

Ah yes, if only we could make racial conclusions that WHITE people are brilliant managers, and everyone else is crap, especially these uneducated Thais. After all, the head of AP was recognised as a brilliant businessman to watch in the Asian region, but that's only because Asian people are so stupid, we need a foreign manager, not a Japanese, not a Korean (even though you just need to look at Japanese cars compared to American or 555 English automobiles to know who does a better job of management) but a FARANG, because only the white man has the education and skill to run an organisation with a Thai customer base using Thai language.

My dad once told me, better to look like an idiot than open your mouth and confirm it. And he was white, so unlike me he didn't have a substandard education and history of corruption.

The current SET meltdown and substandard performance of the SET over the past few years has a lot to do with structural problems, lack of liquidity, inadequate shareholder controls, rampant insider trading, restrictions on foreigners, poor/non existant disclosure, dual rules for Thai/non Thai shareholders and murky government policy. And now capital controls and the crrrrrrrraziness of yesterday. Intent vs. implementation; oh dear.

But to think that farang managers are better than Thais due to better education and no history of corruption is unbelievably stupid. You do realise how many senior Thai business people have been to universities a hel_l of a lot better than the poo hole most farangs get to study at right? i.e. Northwestern/Kellogg, Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge etc etc.

There are some brilliant farang managers that add a huge amount to the Thai economy. I don't think UBC has EVER had one; their woes are due to many things and I doubt a farang manager is going to fix much over there.

There are also an absolute ton of terrible farang managers; same as almost anywhere in the world. Probably more, it isn't like this is New York or a magnet for talent; it is a magnet for whoremongers, losers and misfits who probably could not get a decent job or girlfriend in their own country; but amongst the many farang losers there are many diamonds.

With comments like yours above, a number of people might wonder which are you?????

[kmart]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

They are mostly sent here by their companies. Not by choice. To look after their companies interests overseas. This may change in the near future due to the new laws on limited foreign stakes in companies here.

Are you real?

What data led you to believe theat most are sent here by their companies?

And if they are sent by their companies, presumably against their wishes, why would they mind going back?

So think Again

Well, personal experience for one... I was sent here by my company, and when my contract expires I will be happy to leave. I am looking forward to civilisation.

[pampal]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

They are mostly sent here by their companies. Not by choice. To look after their companies interests overseas. This may change in the near future due to the new laws on limited foreign stakes in companies here.

Are you real?

What data led you to believe theat most are sent here by their companies?

And if they are sent by their companies, presumably against their wishes, why would they mind going back?

So think Again

Well, personal experience for one... I was sent here by my company, and when my contract expires I will be happy to leave. I am looking forward to civilisation.

Good Riddance

Edited January 10, 2007 by pampal

[kmart]

[Jet Gorgon]

Free orchids from TF members on departure.

[bkkandrew]

Free orchids from TF members on departure.

Who are they?

[thaihome]

Sounds like the OP was a contract worker for an MNC and got run off under the polite guise of we are cutting back our western management.

TH

Your assumptions are incorrect. I've worked for myself since I was 24.

If there's one thing I can see it is bad management. It's like a referee in a football match ; if he's good you don't notice him, you only notice him if he's incompetent.

I was watching Sophon cable TV tonight. They have an advert for their station in between movies. The advert's in Thai and English. The English is laughable. Very embarrassing for what I think is a professional company. Is this the typists fault or the Thai marketing managers fault?

If I was advertising in Thai I'd certainly run it by a native speaking Thai first to make sure the spelling and grammar were correct. Would this be genius management or just common sense.

Just another example.

Good for you.

So what is your experience that made you post that MNC were getting rid of Farang managers?

By the way, as I am sure you know Sophon and UBC are Thai companies so what do they have to do with your thread?

TH

[bendix]

Sounds like the OP was a contract worker for an MNC and got run off under the polite guise of we are cutting back our western management.

TH

Your assumptions are incorrect. I've worked for myself since I was 24.

If there's one thing I can see it is bad management. It's like a referee in a football match ; if he's good you don't notice him, you only notice him if he's incompetent.

I was watching Sophon cable TV tonight. They have an advert for their station in between movies. The advert's in Thai and English. The English is laughable. Very embarrassing for what I think is a professional company. Is this the typists fault or the Thai marketing managers fault?

If I was advertising in Thai I'd certainly run it by a native speaking Thai first to make sure the spelling and grammar were correct. Would this be genius management or just common sense.

Just another example.

Good for you.

So what is your experience that made you post that MNC were getting rid of Farang managers?

By the way, as I am sure you know Sophon and UBC are Thai companies so what do they have to do with your thread?

TH

And, to add to TH's line of questioning, what made you assume that the English advertising wasn't checked by a farang manager? Have you noticed the quality of grammar on this forum? Most of us are native speakers.

Come to think of it, have you looked at the punctuation in your own post?

[Briggsy]

How many Thai managers have been sent abroad to work in foreign countries? Or expatriated from Thailand by multinational firms? How did they fare? Does anybody have any experience of this?

I do know of 1 large multinational who wanted to rotate their top Thai manager around the world. He fought it and in the end stayed put. Certainly put an end to any further promotions but he was/is happy staying here.

[kmart]

How many Thai managers have been sent abroad to work in foreign countries? Or expatriated from Thailand by multinational firms? How did they fare? Does anybody have any experience of this?

I do know of 1 large multinational who wanted to rotate their top Thai manager around the world. He fought it and in the end stayed put. Certainly put an end to any further promotions but he was/is happy staying here.

I have sent staff overseas (within SE Asia) and they have done very well for the company. Thai tradesmen are very much in demand overseas, especially oil / gas pipeline guys and welders. Management by locals is seemingly always the weakest link though.

[markuk]

If they don't want you,leave. Teach them a lesson. Let them know they cannot

survive without you.

Allow them to become bankrupt without your wise guidance.

It's their country and not yours. If these farang managers are truly skilled, why can't they find work in their own countries?

Why do they insist on being in Thailand, is it their sense

of Thai nationalism or patriotism. Well they aren't Thai, so why don't they help improve their own countries with their

highly educated backgrounds. Sounds like they want to be in Thailand for different reasons.

They are mostly sent here by their companies. Not by choice. To look after their companies interests overseas. This may change in the near future due to the new laws on limited foreign stakes in companies here.

Are you real?

What data led you to believe theat most are sent here by their companies?

And if they are sent by their companies, presumably against their wishes, why would they mind going back?

So think Again

Well, personal experience for one... I was sent here by my company, and when my contract expires I will be happy to leave. I am looking forward to civilisation.

same here!

[Briggsy]

How many Thai managers have been sent abroad to work in foreign countries? Or expatriated from Thailand by multinational firms? How did they fare? Does anybody have any experience of this?

I do know of 1 large multinational who wanted to rotate their top Thai manager around the world. He fought it and in the end stayed put. Certainly put an end to any further promotions but he was/is happy staying here.

I have sent staff overseas (within SE Asia) and they have done very well for the company. Thai tradesmen are very much in demand overseas, especially oil / gas pipeline guys and welders. Management by locals is seemingly always the weakest link though.

Although we are generalising, I feel you have made a valid point here. The adherence to the strict hierarchy of seniority and its attendant top-down management style lacking 2-way idea and information flow hinders good decision-making. The flip side of that is that juniors are not rebellious and often turn out as productive, flexible workers given sound direction. Once again, we are generalising.

[steveromagnino]

>> The adherence to the strict hierarchy of seniority and its attendant top-down management style lacking 2-way idea and information flow hinders good decision-making.

>>The flip side of that is that juniors are not rebellious and often turn out as productive, flexible workers given sound direction. Once again, we are generalising.

At the risk of mass generalisations, I would say this is not a bad summary of some of the issues of the Thai education system; it does tend to produce people who agree and follow orders.

Japan and Korea have similar social structure; and they haven't been doing too badly. One of my management consulting friends who was some senior partner in Korea had a ton of theories about this, and felt that Korea owed much of its success in developing infrastructure to a mind set exactly like how you've described. He felt once a select few creatives started coming through, that the combination would be mindblowing. Mind you, he was saying this in the early 90s; look at Samsung, K-pop and the success of parts of the Kimchi economy now; it is awesome.

Which then leads to the question....if this is the case that people follow orders, but maybe the decision making is not so good, then why is it that so many posts on the board end up with comments about my staff suck, how do I motivate people, Thai people in my work are lazy, I cannot trust any of my workers etc etc?

It cannot be both ways. I think you are right Briggsy; Thai staff and workers are often extremely productive and flexible workers, who can be very capable when well managed. Good decision making can be taught and skills can be developed. However, for the managers who complain their staff suck, maybe they would do well to look far more closely at themselves, they are probably useless at managing things, and that is why their staff aren't any good at delivering value to the shareholders.

Many managers from the west are used to great systems and support within an organisation, and this can actually make them beleive they are a great manager, based on their results. That is one of the really nice things working in developed countries; organisations seem to often have manuals and ways to solve everything and it is all nicely documented. Coming out here, some discover that in fact without those systems (IT, HR, corporate culture, social) their results as a manager are terrible; deadlines are missed, they don't know what is going on, mistake are made, people don't know what they are supposed to be doing, etc. Rather than look to themselves and realise they are incapable of leadership, delegation and management (then doing something about it), they choose to blame their staff.

Up to them I guess, maybe they like Egypt. (because they like to live in denial 5555555555555)

I've got plenty of Thai friends that have gone abroad and love working there. Most are entrepreneurs though rather than manoot ngern duan; Chinese blood favours working for yourself and your family, not making someone else rich.

[GuestHouse]

A clearly stated duty within my contract to work in Thailand was 'Skills Trasfer', my annual review included a review of the progress of my Thai collegues against the training plan I was required to run to ensure skills trasnfer.

I'm rather proud of having done a good job training my staff and happy to hear of their continuing progress.

We can't have a discussion on the merrits of getting rid of foreign managers from Thai companies, without first considering what good are those foreigners doing for the company AND the Thai staff.

No expert/manager/cosnultant is of any longterm use if s/he is not passing skills to other employees.

What any company/country DOES NOT NEED is people protecting their own positions by holding on to skills and knowledge.

These, I note, are often the very same people who are willing to denegrate the efforts of Thais.

If a manager is in a job for over 3 or 4 years and has been unable to train someone to replace him (REGARDLESS OF WHERE THAT IS, THAILAND OR NOT THAILAND) Then that manager is not worth having in the company.

Edited January 10, 2007 by GuestHouse

[bkkandrew]

Perhaps it's the inate arrogance of farangs who think they can manage Thai companies (with Thai staff and Thai customers) much better than . . ummm . . Thai managers, that makes them want to get rid of farang management. An arrogance which is summed up in this thread.

Having seen examples of farang managers in Thailand (loud, uncouth, wearing shoddy suits and stinking of beer from last night's whoremongering), I don't blame them for getting rid of them.

This thread is a disgrace.

No.

You are a disgrace. Every post I have read of yours is too. God bless the person that cuts your internet conmnection...

Ouch. Did I touch a nerve?

Your posts always get on my nerves...

[Prakanong]

The staff in our Bangkok office are exclusively Thai I think and they are doing very well.

I have heard the mantra go local and in most of our Asian offices it is so with maybe one very senior person in overseas offices.

At the regional HQ where I am its is very mixed though with a couple of europeans, many overseas chinese. Filipino's, Burmese - a right eclectic mix