What Vet's Don't Tell You

[AlexLah]

This book is about the vacination of pets against all kind of disease.

In short there have been study about the need for yearly vaccinaton and the conclusion was that a yearly vaccination is not needed at all.

Once pets are vaccinated they are protected as the immune system has made antibodies.

The only thing the yearly vaccin does is inject the same bacterie/virus again.

Please read the book and inform yourself.

If any vet here can come up with counter arguments please feel free to react.

Kind regards,

Alex

[AlexLah]

OK I give you an example.

Why do humans only need to be vaccinated once per 15 years for Tetanus?

Alex

[November Rain]

I don't know about all vaccines, but Thailand certainly has a more stringent law on rabies vaccine than is actually needed. In Hong Kong (where I used to live) dogs have to be vaccinated against rabies every 3 years, here it's every year. Same vaccine - why different rules? Obviously the vaccine must be effective for more than 3 years, but Thai laws demand we vaccinate our pets more than is necessary

[AlexLah]

I don't know about all vaccines, but Thailand certainly has a more stringent law on rabies vaccine than is actually needed. In Hong Kong (where I used to live) dogs have to be vaccinated against rabies every 3 years, here it's every year. Same vaccine - why different rules? Obviously the vaccine must be effective for more than 3 years, but Thai laws demand we vaccinate our pets more than is necessary

Please look here November: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm

There is no need to vaccinate your pet every one or three year.

As a matter of fact they monitored pets that only had a vacccination when they were a puppy against those that were vaccinated every year. Pets that were vaccinated every year showed some kind of dissease after/within three months. The Puppy that were only once vacinated showed a 95% resistance to all disseas.

Do your Google search on pets and vaccination and you will find out the truth. It is all about money.

Kind regards,

Alex

[November Rain]

I've just had a quick scan of this, Alex (I'll read it more carefully, later), but thank you for bringing this to our attention. If this is substantiated, it will make a big difference to the health of the dogs in our dog center (and to our finances!!) With 140 dogs, vaccination costs are huge! Of course, we'll have to comply with the law & vaccinate every year against rabies, but not doing the combined booster every year would be great. I'll research into this, before deciding, but thanks for opening my eyes to it.

[AlexLah]

Hi November,

I have asked a member of TV who is a vet to react on this, but sadly there is no reaction.

For Rabies you also not have to repeat each year na.

Once the pets are vaccinated they are protected as the body makes immune cells to all of those diseasses.

If Thai officials tell you that you have to repeat those vaccin every year , just show them the article that shows new guidelines for US and EU vacinating na.

I have lost many pets due to cancer and al kind off dissease and now I know why.

Kind regards,

Alex

[bina]

november rain the reason is that people forget to do the vacs if its every 3 years and thats in countries that do not have a high incidence of rabies so they can get away with it... who remembers to bring a dog in for a blood titre?? we have three yard dogs, plus personal pets and the country comes to our kibbutz every year twice a year to do the vacs. other wise the yard dogs wouldnt see the inside of a vet's office since i do most of my own treating/worming and they dont get distemper etc vacs . (the ferrrets do though, plus rabies vac)

also israel vacs every year even at the zoo (goats donkeys dogs etc ) by a county large animal vet tech. who also does the brucellosis and stuff shots (see thai farming thread about same)

we have rabies everywhere (foxes jackals and feral dogs in populated and agric. areas)

its just easier to keep track of everyone and if anyone is bitten u can pull out the certificate and then the dog can stay at home for a 10 day quarantine instead of 'going to jail' in the county dog pound.

i think it is very difficult for people from europe/america et al to understand that in developing countries people are not used to or are not willing to take their animals to vets for routine things.

even here in israel, people still call me before they call a vet to ask what to do ; they often wait until an animal is basically at death's door before calling a vet or taking the animal to a vet so why should they bother to remember to go for blood titer (which seems like bullsh.. to them) or go every three years for a shot....

it seems that would be the same way of thinking in thailand...

better safe then sorry, especially in rural areas that people dont bother to vaccinate at all except for maybe giving ivomac for mange

bina

[November Rain]

I agree better safe than sorry, bina. There's no way that I wouldn't vaccinate the dogs at all. All of them (apart from 1 new one & a few young pups) are all fully vaccinated (rabies & combined) already, but it would be advantageous not to have to do the yearly combined booster, if this study proves to be true (healthwise, stresswise - dogs, not me!, timewise & financially!). But, as I said, I want to research it more fully, before making a decision. I certainly don't want to put them at risk of distemper or parvo, both of which we see a lot of round here.

[bina]

yep, the safe or sorry part is more like how would people remember to do things that are routine if they arent routine yearly but every three years

how many of us put off doing our own medical stuff when its once every few years, we kind of forget... same with animals

[AlexLah]

Just for your info na.

For example vaccination against Rabies is now adviced once per three years.

Just Google on: Vaccination guidelines.

Ask yourself why humans are not vaccinated every year against all kind of disseases?

It is a big scam and the vet I asked about it, has still not reacted.

Cheers all,

Alex

[bina]

alex,

again: u must not be in a third world or developing country; here, we all do the vacs every year because the county does them by coming around in a mobile truck and everyone has to do it at a fairly cheap rate. if they do it yearly, same time every year, then they remember. if not, they dont remember. and we have rabies every where.

those guidelines are for european and usa , not for middle east or for asia where people are poor, dont take care of their pets, and are not used to routine visits or any visits to the vet. its a way of covering all areas without having people slip thru the net...

and, in case your dog or goat etc is bitten, the yearly vac provides slightly more protection then the three year; same as tetatnus for people ( i am a zoo worker i get my vaccines every 7-10 years not every 15 yrs since i am exposed more to accidental punctures bites and horse shit)... dont make blanket statements w/o checking things out slightly more...

bina

petting zoo/tzuba

israel

[BambinA]

Alex.. if you are curious that much , why you don't email and ask these places ??

DEPARTMENT OF LIVESTOCK DEVELOPMENT ,MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND COOPERATIVES

http://www.dld.go.th/webenglish/

Ministery of Public health

http://eng.moph.go.th/HealthIndustry/index.php

The Veterinary Council of Thailand

http://www.vetcouncil.or.th/en/

[percy2]

Alex.. if you are curious that much , why you won't email and ask these places ??

DEPARTMENT OF LIVESTOCK DEVELOPMENT ,MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND COOPERATIVES

http://www.dld.go.th/webenglish/

Ministery of Public health

http://eng.moph.go.th/HealthIndustry/index.php

The Veterinary Council of Thailand

http://www.vetcouncil.or.th/en/

Bambina,

I have learnt to look for your posts as some of the most informative on TV.

Thanks.

I would appreciate your direct comment on whats been said.

I will be buying 2 new puppies shortly and am interested in this thread.

Thanks to all posters.

Cheers

[BambinA]

Anyway Alex..You are a dutch , and im thinking to take a master degree at De Universiteit Utrecht

http://www.internationalmasters.uu.nl/inde...an_en/index.cfm

http://www.vet.uu.nl/viavet

If i pass the qualification ( Great IELTS score) ,i will ask some professors there about your question then

[Sheryl]

Interesting...I had always wondered about this as I am not aware of any vaccine in humans that needs annual boosters.

Of course, in the case of rabies it is often a matter of law and as Bina pointed out there are practical reasons for those laws and of course rabies is a major public health threat affecting humans as well as animals.

Alex, does the book mention how long the other vaccines (feline leukemia etc) are usually effective for? Most vaccines do need a booster at some point and I don't want to take any chances with my beloved Scully (shown in avatar) but neither would I have any problem remembering to get the vaccines every 5 years or whatever is actually necessary. And as NR mentions, this info would be VERY helpful for people running animal shelters.

[bina]

sheryl, i'm talking only about animal vacs; and our tetanus vac.

the same goes for antibiotics actually, i asked our family doc on the kibbutz, a new,younger doc, why all our animals get first round of antibiotics usually for 3 days and if no improvement then up to 5 or 7 days; with humans its usually 7 days and continuation for another 3 days depending on type of bacteria/antibiotic.

his answer was COST!!! he mentioned that drug companies obviously make more if they sell more, and its also a 'cover your a**' situation where docs dont want to take chances. also if given for three days, the patient may have to come in again for a check so this is easier. he sited some test runs in africa etc for use of antibiotics for certain things and the dose was only 3 days bla bla bla... (i had argued for using the doxicillin on my sinusitus only three days not longer since goats get tetra/doxi for three days and it works) so obviously the REAL need for a pet's yearly vacs. is probably overruled by the concienciousness of the people taking care of their animals.

Dutch etc are probably more conciencious/knowlegeable about pet health care then a large majority of thai (its a cultural thing and dependant on education of the public, and wealth/lack thereof also).

the same can be said for pre natal and ante natal care among various countries.

different cultures: different treatments:

my american born vet is fairly conservative and updates constantly but goes for minimal drugs/operations if not needed or use of newwer more effective drugs like long lasting tetracy. (dont have to inject every day thereby less stress to the animal)

my israeli born vet is heavy handed with the antibiotics and interventions

my finnish background/dutch trained vet is a 'wait and see', non antibiotic supportive treatment type

the problem is that rabies has not been erradicated; neither have many other zoonoses. as for other animal to related diseases, its only a matter of what is viewed as proper pet care and that is definately a cultural thing.

bina

israel

[AlexLah]

Alex.. if you are curious that much , why you don't email and ask these places ??

DEPARTMENT OF LIVESTOCK DEVELOPMENT ,MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND COOPERATIVES

http://www.dld.go.th/webenglish/

This is about cows and cattles and stuff so for farmers who own lifestock.

Ministery of Public health

http://eng.moph.go.th/HealthIndustry/index.php

This link is regarding PUBLIC health, not pets.

The Veterinary Council of Thailand

http://www.vetcouncil.or.th/en/

Absolutely nothing to find here, just log on and see yourself....

Bambina I appreciate your replies and I hope for you you can get to Holland but I am trying to bring up a serious issue here.

You as a vet must have way more knowledge then anyone of us here on viral disseases and bacterial infections

and I was hoping you could give some info on this.

A simple Google search with the keywords: Vaccination guidelines pets, will give you hundreds of links to recent studies on vaccination and the need for a yearly booster from famous uni's.

I went through dozens of links and whas just shocked by the finds of research into this.

I will do some searches again tonight and will write down the most interesting links but in the meantime you can ask yourself how many times you have been vaccinated against for example: Polio....

For the Antibiotics, well let me tell you my docter never ever gave me any antbiotics as he explained it was pure evil. My dentist that took my wishdom teeth out could even tell me which antibiotics I have had in the past judging the colored rings on wishdom teeth. Yes I had a different docter that time.

Think about the whole hype on Tamiflu and countries stockpilling that drug thinking it could help when catching the birdflu while they never even identified how to kill that virus.

Come back to you all laters,

Alex

[BambinA]

This link is regarding PUBLIC health, not pets.

>>Believe me, many vets work there ...and many any animal drugs and vaccines have to be checked here

The Veterinary Council of Thailand

http://www.vetcouncil.or.th/en/

Absolutely nothing to find here, just log on and see yourself....

>>Try to use more brain

Bambina I appreciate your replies and I hope for you you can get to Holland but I am trying to bring up a serious issue here.

>> Dont you think im serious??

You as a vet must have way more knowledge then anyone of us here on viral disseases and bacterial infections

and I was hoping you could give some info on this.

I know some ... not all. that's why i please sending you those links ..hopefully you can email them and ask

/snip ..

Im really curious how are the vets in hollands treat animal( i mean vacination program)

can you elaborate me?

Anyway .. I 've heard ...any kind of sick people get only Acetaminophen in NL ... hence people go to see the docs in other countries..is it true? ... how come??

PS ... being a vet for 9 yrs ..got 10 times approched with rabies dogs ..(even i know Rabies Vac in Human can stay with me 3 yrs each per shot .. but i dont dare to make my life have any risk so i take the vac every yr ...)

Well , Obviously Rabies Vaccine In human can stay with u 3 yrs / shot ... do u want to dare with me... tell me .. i think i can find some infected dogs for you

make an experiment then

MY POINT .. even people know Vac has few years effective.. but do you dare to play with life???Anykind of Doctor in this pity world is playing with god

You must do anything for making you 're alive .. there is nothing 100% in this world

just my 2 stangs

[sbk]

Sorry alex, but I am with Bambi on this one too. I have had a rabid dog attack and try to bite one of my dogs, and boy was I glad he had regular vaccinations when that happened. We have had a local child die from rabies here, bit in the face by a rabid dog.

You can take risks with your own life and, in Holland it is far from a risk, really. But, I choose to not take that risk, thanks. Don't judge me or others for not choosing to follow your path.

[bina]

alex,

u are ignoring experienced people here; i run a petting zoo and work with people from the nature preservation society and the jerusalem zoo...

bambi is a vet, sbk is involved in pet rescue (if i read correctly)

all the info i gave u pertains to countries that are high risk: thailand, israel (middle east in general, southeast asia, rural in general) surrounding areas...

holland is holland.

reread my post, sbk's post and bambi's post

i think we are pretty clear.

tetracycline is the one that stains teeth.

u want to risk your own life, go ahead , but not other peoples' lives; and the benefits in this case outweigh the risks involved in vaccine programs for people or animals.

or do u want a dose of brucellosis or rabies?

bina

[AlexLah]

Hi all,

Found some interesting Dutch sites so please gimme some time to translate.

Dear Bambi thanks for your links and I have sended e-mail to those sites mentioned by you.

Sorry I did not understand the first time.

Gimme some time OK maybe 1-2 days to come up with other evidence.

Have soome articl4s already but have to translate it to English

.

Take care all!

Alex

[Jet Gorgon]

Sorry alex, but I am with Bambi on this one too. I have had a rabid dog attack and try to bite one of my dogs, and boy was I glad he had regular vaccinations when that happened. We have had a local child die from rabies here, bit in the face by a rabid dog.

I remember that case with the child. Horrifying.

Also, a note to November Rain: You should be able to get free rabies vaccines from the govt health authorities, No? I remember that they used to come round every year and vaccinate for free. I asked them to come to the beach and do the strays but they could not. I asked them for 20 vaccines and said I'd do it myself. They had a little conference and agreed if I got an ice box to store the sera in. Went to get a styrofoam box and ice, got some villagers to braid plastic wrapping string for collars, and then ran around injecting all the dogs I could find. We put the collars and rabies tags on each one (made the doggies proud, that did) and quelled alot of fear in the village.

Dunno about free distember or parvovirus. You oughtta at least get a discount. Hope you get lots of donations for your efforts. That's very thoughtful of you to do this work. Do you have a website?

[November Rain]

Sorry alex, but I am with Bambi on this one too. I have had a rabid dog attack and try to bite one of my dogs, and boy was I glad he had regular vaccinations when that happened. We have had a local child die from rabies here, bit in the face by a rabid dog.

I remember that case with the child. Horrifying.

Also, a note to November Rain: You should be able to get free rabies vaccines from the govt health authorities, No? I remember that they used to come round every year and vaccinate for free. I asked them to come to the beach and do the strays but they could not. I asked them for 20 vaccines and said I'd do it myself. They had a little conference and agreed if I got an ice box to store the sera in. Went to get a styrofoam box and ice, got some villagers to braid plastic wrapping string for collars, and then ran around injecting all the dogs I could find. We put the collars and rabies tags on each one (made the doggies proud, that did) and quelled alot of fear in the village.

Dunno about free distember or parvovirus. You oughtta at least get a discount. Hope you get lots of donations for your efforts. That's very thoughtful of you to do this work. Do you have a website?

Hi Jet Gorgon,

Yes, we have a website, if you want to pm me, I'll give you the URL. It's hopelessly outdated, partly because I couldn't access it for a year & now my dial up is too slow to upload anything onto it. Keep getting "Gateway Timeout". In the process of researching the best broadband provider, so I can change.

Yes, strictly we should get free rabies vaccines, but our relationship with the local tessadban means I would probably ask, get an affirmative, but never get the supplies. Long story.

Our vet does get us a discount, but combined vaccines are still really expensive. My friend who runs "Dogchance" in BKK & Ratchaburi has got me 150 combined & rabies (together) vaccines, which she'll deliver this weekend for 14,700bt, which is really good. That'll do us for this year. Going to be fun injecting 140 dogs. Anyone in HH want to come & help?? I'll get a few street dogs with the remaining vaccines.

We rely on donations and our second hand shop, but often there's not enough funds, so we end up paying ourselves. Dogchance & Soi Dog Rescue have both been brilliant at helping us out when we've been really down, though (practically, not financially!). Pym & Sherry are wonderful people.

[Sheryl]

I'm not sure why this seems to be turning into a polarized argument as I don't really see that many inconsistancies in what people are saying....

The frequency with which vaccines need to be given to maintain immunity is scientific fact.

The need for laws regarding animal vaccines for diseases which can spread to humans, no reasonable person would take issue with.

That these laws will be structured to provide maximum protection to humans taking into account such factors as ease of remembering on the part of the owners is also reasonable.

For vaccines not subject to legal requitrement, individual pet owners -- and animal resuce/shelter groups -- should be able to make their own informed choices, informed being the key word.

In which respect, I would still be interested in any (scientific, non conspiracy-theorist) data on frequency with which the vaccines other than rabies need to be given....

[bina]

sbk,

to differentiate between several things:

zoonoses (animal to human diseases), diseases which kill the animal and dont cause problems for us, and diseases which can cause economic damage (usually in herd animals)

1. rabies, lepto, (dogs, cats); brucellosis and a few others in large animals, etc.

2. distemper (dogs, ferrets)

3. tetanus, black tongue, etc (large animals)

each country has its own regulations for ALL of these, based on demography, animal usage, prevalance of the disease, funding, etc.

FYI the jerusalem zoo puts rabies vaccine in bait, along with a type of antibiotic that leaves traces in the bones (bambi i cant remember which one), so that if they find a dead fox or jackal in the zoo area (a sprawling zoo on the edge of the 'rain line' fenced in but with 'invaders' including weasels jackals, foxes cats, and they have free range fowl of various sorts) they find traces of the antibiotic in the bone and they know that that fox was vaccinated.

this is because two years ago a fox bit a type of wild antelope which died and the zoo had to redesign its anti rabies schedule (only predator types got vaccinated and the animals in the petting zoo area. all others did not get the rabies vac).

rabies takes time to incubate and has different manifestations and incu. periods in different types of animals (the fastest being apparently in canines) so the zoo was quarantined for 6 months i.e. no animals sold or bought. now all zoo workers, regardless of function, must get a rabies vaccine (this is not a requirement in israel for animal workers, i think it may be so for vets and such in the states)>

this might be a good method to use. not sure how they do it, i can ask the zoo vet, but i'm sure that this method , since used in america, can be googled also. or bambi may be can find a link.

usually it is nature preservation groups that use this method.

more than my two satangs on the subject.

bina

[November Rain]

I'm not sure why this seems to be turning into a polarized argument as I don't really see that many inconsistancies in what people are saying....

The frequency with which vaccines need to be given to maintain immunity is scientific fact.

The need for laws regarding animal vaccines for diseases which can spread to humans, no reasonable person would take issue with.

That these laws will be structured to provide maximum protection to humans taking into account such factors as ease of remembering on the part of the owners is also reasonable.

For vaccines not subject to legal requitrement, individual pet owners -- and animal resuce/shelter groups -- should be able to make their own informed choices, informed being the key word.

In which respect, I would still be interested in any (scientific, non conspiracy-theorist) data on frequency with which the vaccines other than rabies need to be given....

You've echoed my thoughts exactly, Sheryl.

Although I will be giving the combined/rabies vaccines next week to all of our dogs & will continue to give rabies each year, as required by law, I will use the next few months to research Alex's findings as far as possible, so I can decide whether to give combined booster next year. Of course, all new dogs & pups will continue to get their initial combined vaccines. Thanks again, Alex, for giving me something to think about

[AlexLah]

Hi November,

As I said I found some very interesting info but I need to translate it.

But already I can tell you that for Rabies there are 4 different type of vaccine (manafacturers).

All of them offer different lenght of protection.

It depends on how they produce the vaccin.

Obviously the better vaccins are a bit more expensive.

I will come back to this as soon as I have a bit more time, most likely this weekend.

As I told I send an e-mail to the vet department of Thailand but the mail bounced back saying the adress was invald.

Anyway I will keep researching.

alex

[Jet Gorgon]

Talked to a Canadian vet. He says rabies jabs are good for three years, BUT, some animals do not "take" to the vaccine. He also said that in areas where there is alot of wildlife and strays, it is better to be safe and give annual injections.