Air pollution at Rayong ?

Airbagwill · October 24, 2017

There have been many reports on pollution in this region.

I would spend a bit of time on Google and see what you dig up.

The region is most likely to affect long term residents.

I'd check for industrial waste disposal and industrial leaks, fires and explisions.

Check with EARTH, a Thai environmental organisation.

The authoritues have been geaviky criticised for not making infirmation easily available on tge area.

The EEC development is going to see a dramatic increase of industry in the region too.....so don't expect any improvement.

Airbagwill · October 24, 2017

On 20/10/2017 at 8:54 AM, Eff1n2ret said:

If you don't understand the meaning of 'monsoon' - a seasonal wind - perhaps you have a comprehension problem.

Monsoon

a seasonal prevailing wind in the region of South and Southeast Asia, blowing from the southwest between May and September and bringing rain (the wet monsoon ), or from the northeast between October and April (the dry monsoon ).

prevailing winds arent by any means the be all and end all of this. Pollutants etc can ve xarried above the prevailing winds or even against by climate anomalies and brought down anywhere by rain or changes in atmospheric conditions..soil, water and other aspects of the environment can also contrubute to localised pollution.

Wim1954 · October 27, 2017

On 20-10-2017 at 7:58 AM, jgarbo said:

The east coast tends to favor W-SW winds. Hence Pattaya, the "west wind". Thai place names always mean something.

For what it's worth, I've flown along the east coast from Bangkok down to Satthahip. A continuous blanket of yellow-brown pollution all the way. Discouraging for clean air enthusiasts.

Pattay Sattahip it's not RAYONG.

Airbagwill · October 27, 2017

Pollution doesn't read maps........Rayong and Chonburi have the same basic problems with potentially very damaging industries.

Prevailing winds are really just a red herring as pollution is spread regradless of "prevailing winds"

beachproperty · October 27, 2017

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Pollution doesn't read maps........Rayong and Chonburi have the same basic problems with potentially very damaging industries.

Prevailing winds are really just a red herring as pollution is spread regradless of "prevailing winds"

Guess I'll post again the Rayong air quality readings .....MUCH more informative than the above

http://aqicn.org/city/thailand/rayong/government-center/

Compared to Bangkok:

http://aqicn.org/city/bangkok/

Airbagwill · October 27, 2017

13 hours ago, beachproperty said:

Guess I'll post again the Rayong air quality readings .....MUCH more informative than the above

http://aqicn.org/city/thailand/rayong/government-center/

Compared to Bangkok:

http://aqicn.org/city/bangkok/

Well aware of the AQ.readings which sadly dont reflect the intermittment nature of modern pollutant emissions in the region.

You will slso need to think about what you ste comparing.... note that this once rural area with relatively sparse population is now one of the poorest AQ ratings outside Bkk which in itself is a major metropolis which concomitant polllution problems.

beachproperty · October 28, 2017

1 minute ago, beachproperty said:

27 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Well aware of the AQ.readings which sadly dont reflect the intermittment nature of modern pollutant emissions in the region.

You will slso need to think about what you ste comparing.... note that this once rural area with relatively sparse population is now one of the poorest AQ ratings outside Bkk which in itself is a major metropolis which concomitant polllution problems.

Well....again....nothing added to the FACTS just some thoughts on that you THINK about the area!

Wim1954 · October 28, 2017

3 hours ago, beachproperty said:

Well....again....nothing added to the FACTS just some thoughts on that you THINK about the area!

They are all fortune tellers and the map is the province Rayong NOT THE CITY. The polution is at Mapthaput and surroundings.

And yes everybody needs those industries with the oil, gas and so on the farang too.

Airbagwill · October 28, 2017

The area is Chonburi and Rayong Changwats. Map ta Phut is not the only industrial estate there - the recent fire at ASM was in Asia Industry - that is in Ban Chang.

Airbagwill · October 28, 2017

With regards to pollution in Chonburi and Rayong, without a good overview the reality is evasive.

Pollution in the area has a long history and remains endemic - pollution doesn’t suddenly disappear the residues linger...

The effects of pollution are insidious and take time, so from a personal perspective may be imperceptible, and may never be recognised. But when observed scientifically through population samples and statistics the situation becomes clearer.

“Facts” of course mean nothing until they are interpreted or analyzed. Of course in a discussion or argument, recourse to the word “fact” as an argument in itself is usually specious and actually reveals a lack of argument.

Here are two interpretations of “the facts” concerning the Eastern Seaboard Development Program

Thai government officials view:

The most successful industrialization program in Thailand

Thai NGOs or civil networks view:

The most visible example of serious environmental and health impacts in Thailand’s development experience

Many of the arguments about pollution around Chonburi and Rayong on this thread are based on fallacious premises such as AQI and prevailing winds.

Pollution in the region includes air-born, soil, water, fresh and sea - all these media are quite capable or releasing pollutants regardless of prevailing winds - there are many other factors for distributing pollution especially when you realise that “prevailing winds” refers to surface winds and not higher atmosphere, soil is transported and blown about as dust etc., rain deposits pollutants in various places were they can then be transported through both natural and manmade drainage (e.g tides, canals, reservoirs lake and rivers), and of course waste disposal.

One has also to factor in the bias of those with a vested interest in the region.

That would be businesses, the authorities who now want to expend the region, and of course homeowners. The last thing they want is to see their “investments” discredited as air, soil and water pollution becomes more and more prevalent in the region and infrastructure failings become more evident. .... And it’s going to get worse - a lot worse!

For 3 decades pollution in the region has resulted in demonstrable health hazards for people living in the region.... higher cancer rates and even death amongst children.

From time to time this has resulted in (tardy?) government action - for instance the closure of 65 factories at Map Tha Put for several years.

In 2015 - Chonburi and Rayong had the highest number of pollution incidents of any of the Changwats in Thailand. Remember pollution doesn’t just “disappear” - it enters the eco-system and lingers....

In the last year alone there have been several industrial accidents including fires and explosions. (NB - ASM and PTT)

There have been 2 reports this year that criticize the authorities accuse them of obfuscation and point out that the release of “fact” or information about pollution in the region has been made increasingly difficult to access.

The Thai organisation EARTH expresses fears about the effects industrial complexes on the environment and inhabitants in Rayong at present and in the future under the new EEC plans.;

“There are no assurances that new industrialisation plans will not generate further pollution while existing problems have not been resolved. -

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30317290

Whilst the World Resources Institute queries the authorities preparedness to act on complaints from local residents - http://www.wri.org/blog/2017/08/thailand-unmet-transparency-laws-impede-poor-communities-struggle-environmental

Despite this, on the 10^th of October tis year the government closed down the Environment and Health Impact Assessment (EHIA) process after it ordered the Independent Commission on Environment and Health (ICEH) to be axed. This was the main source for public input on the ongoing struggle to expose pollution in the region.

One of the main reasons for this is suspected to be their new EEC project, which is going to bring a massive expansion of industry to the area.... the last thing the government, wants is to have to “sell” an industrial expansion plan that is tarnished before it starts. (Actually it’s already started)

The information available indicates that health risks including cancer rates are higher in the region that normal. I also suspect that people don’t understand how to interpret “rates” when it comes to health. - E.g. if the norm for cancers of a particular kind is defined as 1 in 1000 then one extra victim represents a 100% increase in cancer -

In the region the increases (or “facts”) are not so clearly defined and a lot of research and input has been done and further work needs to go into this but the authorities seem reluctant to do this and are dragging their heals when it comes to allowing the public access to the information they already have.

As for AQI - To compare Bkk and Rayong AQI figures alone and out of context is simply to create a false dichotomy.

When it comes to AQI in Rayong there are certain other factors to bear in mind - for instance location of the measurements - despite being away from the main industries pollution still peaks in that area and Sattahip retorts levels nearly as high as BKK - btw - BKK compares with some of the worst cities in China - so you are comparing with some of the most dire AQIs in Asia.... this in no way mitigates the very real problems of the “eastern seaboard” in Thailand.

The measurements taken as well may not actually reflect the full picture either especially regarding VOCs - the AQI only detects 5 substances...

1. Ozone.

2. Particulate matter

3. Carbon monoxide,

4. Sulfur dioxide,

5. Nitrogen dioxide

(All these substances are only sampled at ground level.)

In Map Tha put for instance the following VOC substances are of concern. E.g. - the Govt report... “Thailand’s state of Pollution”, - 2015...

1) Benzene: the concentration exceeded the standard in 5 monitored areas, but the level fell from that of 2014

2) Butadiene: the concentration level exceeded the standards in 4 monitored areas, however, the levels decreased in all areas except for Mu Ban Nopphaket Station and Ban Phong Community

3) Dichloromethane: the concentration level exceeded the standards in 5 monitored areas located within close proximity to industrial estates.

Benzene and formaldehyde, both carcinogens, are produced in the region

In 2015 - Rayong and Chonburi rated as 10 and 12 respectively in the top 30 in number of days air pollution exceeded national standards.

Sources of air pollution vary as many in the top ten are in the upper northern area where pollution mainly comes from wildfire and burning in agricultural areas. In Map Ta Phut pollution controlled zone, Rayong, the VOCs came from chemical and industrial – related activities.

When it comes to exceeding national air standards, Map Tha Put is repeatedly number under several chemical measurements.

(A government report describes Map Ta Phut, Rayong as a “crisis area” - their own words!)

(VCs cover an enormous range of substances both natural and manmade some of which are potentially very hazardous in accumulatory circumstances)

The effects of waste disposal - One major factor that seems to have been overlooked in this thread is industrial waste disposal...this can spread pollutants far and wide, but primarily throughout the region - it doesn’t pay to transport the stuff too far.

In Thailand, hazardous waste is becoming a major problem, especially toxic chemicals and heavy metal pollutants discharged from factories.

The region has vey poor infrastructure and monitoring of this. Waste an be solid, liquid or gaseous and it’s disposal is often very clandestine.

Illegal dumping mostly occurs in Bangkok and surrounding provinces such as in Chonburi and Rayong.

Thailand produces a total of 3.5 million tons of hazardous waste and 23.5 million tons of non-hazardous waste per year, ONLY ABOUT 50% OF WHICH IS PROCESSED LEGALLY....

Sometimes it is the factories themselves that dispose of waste incorrectly and sometimes it is the waste disposal companies who take advantage of slack monitoring to maximise profits.

Illegal dumping is not a new thing and it has been carried out around Chonburi and Rayong for at least the last 30 years. Unfortunately it is not all detected and cleanups are not always 100% so it is quite possible that people are living right next to or even on industrial waste “hotspots”

There are over 1000 industrial landfills around the and about 400 recycling plants located outside industrial estates. There are also plants located in industrial estates; these are supervised to some degree by the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand. One sees no reason why the normal standards of graft corruption and ineptitude apply.

The Eastern Seaboard (Chonburi & Rayong) in particular has a high concentration of these facilities and there are great concerns with respect to the monitoring of waste to ensure that waste is actually sent to the appropriate plants for treatment.

Landfills in the Chonburi/Rayong region are also reported as “overloaded” - “Currently the majority of landfill capacity overloaded is in the central and east regions. Rayong”, - http://mfuic2012.mfu.ac.th/electronic_proceeding/Documents/00_PDF/O-SC-D/O-SC-D-006.pdf

All the more incentive to find “alternative ways of disposing of industrial waste.

Only this year (June) in Rayong the following incident was reported to the police - the discovery of a “lake” of industrial waste covered in polythene next to Dok Krai Reservoir in Pluak Daeng. This is suspected of being 200,000 tons of toxic waste that went missing the year before. It threatens to contamination the water supply but as yet, 4 months on, it hasn’t been publicly identified or attributed.

So when it comes to pollution whether air land or water and how it affects the health of those living there, it is way too simplistic to suggest that being “upwind of a factory or two is a satisfactory guarantee of safety - the waste and pollutants move about - due to both natural and man-made reasons and without a detailed knowledge of how they are created and then disposed of it is very hard to tell what is going on.... and the authorities aren’t helping.

beachproperty · October 28, 2017

22 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

With regards to pollution in Chonburi and Rayong, without a good overview the reality is evasive.

Pollution in the area has a long history and remains endemic - pollution doesn’t suddenly disappear the residues linger...

The effects of pollution are insidious and take time, so from a personal perspective may be imperceptible, and may never be recognised. But when observed scientifically through population samples and statistics the situation becomes clearer.

“Facts” of course mean nothing until they are interpreted or analyzed. Of course in a discussion or argument, recourse to the word “fact” as an argument in itself is usually specious and actually reveals a lack of argument.

Here are two interpretations of “the facts” concerning the Eastern Seaboard Development Program

Thai government officials view:

The most successful industrialization program in Thailand

Thai NGOs or civil networks view:

The most visible example of serious environmental and health impacts in Thailand’s development experience

Many of the arguments about pollution around Chonburi and Rayong on this thread are based on fallacious premises such as AQI and prevailing winds.

Pollution in the region includes air-born, soil, water, fresh and sea - all these media are quite capable or releasing pollutants regardless of prevailing winds - there are many other factors for distributing pollution especially when you realise that “prevailing winds” refers to surface winds and not higher atmosphere, soil is transported and blown about as dust etc., rain deposits pollutants in various places were they can then be transported through both natural and manmade drainage (e.g tides, canals, reservoirs lake and rivers), and of course waste disposal.

One has also to factor in the bias of those with a vested interest in the region.

That would be businesses, the authorities who now want to expend the region, and of course homeowners. The last thing they want is to see their “investments” discredited as air, soil and water pollution becomes more and more prevalent in the region and infrastructure failings become more evident. .... And it’s going to get worse - a lot worse!

For 3 decades pollution in the region has resulted in demonstrable health hazards for people living in the region.... higher cancer rates and even death amongst children.

From time to time this has resulted in (tardy?) government action - for instance the closure of 65 factories at Map Tha Put for several years.

In 2015 - Chonburi and Rayong had the highest number of pollution incidents of any of the Changwats in Thailand. Remember pollution doesn’t just “disappear” - it enters the eco-system and lingers....

In the last year alone there have been several industrial accidents including fires and explosions. (NB - ASM and PTT)

There have been 2 reports this year that criticize the authorities accuse them of obfuscation and point out that the release of “fact” or information about pollution in the region has been made increasingly difficult to access.

The Thai organisation EARTH expresses fears about the effects industrial complexes on the environment and inhabitants in Rayong at present and in the future under the new EEC plans.;

“There are no assurances that new industrialisation plans will not generate further pollution while existing problems have not been resolved. -

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30317290

Whilst the World Resources Institute queries the authorities preparedness to act on complaints from local residents - http://www.wri.org/blog/2017/08/thailand-unmet-transparency-laws-impede-poor-communities-struggle-environmental

Despite this, on the 10^th of October tis year the government closed down the Environment and Health Impact Assessment (EHIA) process after it ordered the Independent Commission on Environment and Health (ICEH) to be axed. This was the main source for public input on the ongoing struggle to expose pollution in the region.

One of the main reasons for this is suspected to be their new EEC project, which is going to bring a massive expansion of industry to the area.... the last thing the government, wants is to have to “sell” an industrial expansion plan that is tarnished before it starts. (Actually it’s already started)

The information available indicates that health risks including cancer rates are higher in the region that normal. I also suspect that people don’t understand how to interpret “rates” when it comes to health. - E.g. if the norm for cancers of a particular kind is defined as 1 in 1000 then one extra victim represents a 100% increase in cancer -

In the region the increases (or “facts”) are not so clearly defined and a lot of research and input has been done and further work needs to go into this but the authorities seem reluctant to do this and are dragging their heals when it comes to allowing the public access to the information they already have.

As for AQI - To compare Bkk and Rayong AQI figures alone and out of context is simply to create a false dichotomy.

When it comes to AQI in Rayong there are certain other factors to bear in mind - for instance location of the measurements - despite being away from the main industries pollution still peaks in that area and Sattahip retorts levels nearly as high as BKK - btw - BKK compares with some of the worst cities in China - so you are comparing with some of the most dire AQIs in Asia.... this in no way mitigates the very real problems of the “eastern seaboard” in Thailand.

The measurements taken as well may not actually reflect the full picture either especially regarding VOCs - the AQI only detects 5 substances...

1.     Ozone.

2.     Particulate matter

3.     Carbon monoxide,

4.     Sulfur dioxide,

5.     Nitrogen dioxide

(All these substances are only sampled at ground level.)

In Map Tha put for instance the following VOC substances are of concern. E.g. - the Govt report... “Thailand’s state of Pollution”, - 2015...

1)   Benzene: the concentration exceeded the standard in 5 monitored areas, but the level fell from that of 2014

2)   Butadiene: the concentration level exceeded the standards in 4 monitored areas, however, the levels decreased in all areas except for Mu Ban Nopphaket Station and Ban Phong Community

3)   Dichloromethane: the concentration level exceeded the standards in 5 monitored areas located within close proximity to industrial estates.

Benzene and formaldehyde, both carcinogens, are produced in the region

In 2015 - Rayong and Chonburi rated as 10 and 12 respectively in the top 30 in number of days air pollution exceeded national standards.

Sources of air pollution vary as many in the top ten are in the upper northern area where pollution mainly comes from wildfire and burning in agricultural areas. In Map Ta Phut pollution controlled zone, Rayong, the VOCs came from chemical and industrial – related activities.

When it comes to exceeding national air standards, Map Tha Put is repeatedly number under several chemical measurements.

(A government report describes Map Ta Phut, Rayong as a “crisis area” - their own words!)

(VCs cover an enormous range of substances both natural and manmade some of which are potentially very hazardous in accumulatory circumstances)

The effects of waste disposal - One major factor that seems to have been overlooked in this thread is industrial waste disposal...this can spread pollutants far and wide, but primarily throughout the region - it doesn’t pay to transport the stuff too far.

In Thailand, hazardous waste is becoming a major problem, especially toxic chemicals and heavy metal pollutants discharged from factories.

The region has vey poor infrastructure and monitoring of this. Waste an be solid, liquid or gaseous and it’s disposal is often very clandestine.

Illegal dumping mostly occurs in Bangkok and surrounding provinces such as in Chonburi and Rayong.

Thailand produces a total of 3.5 million tons of hazardous waste and 23.5 million tons of non-hazardous waste per year, ONLY ABOUT 50% OF WHICH IS PROCESSED LEGALLY....

Sometimes it is the factories themselves that dispose of waste incorrectly and sometimes it is the waste disposal companies who take advantage of slack monitoring to maximise profits.

Illegal dumping is not a new thing and it has been carried out around Chonburi and Rayong for at least the last 30 years. Unfortunately it is not all detected and cleanups are not always 100% so it is quite possible that people are living right next to or even on industrial waste “hotspots”

There are over 1000 industrial landfills around the and about 400 recycling plants located outside industrial estates. There are also plants located in industrial estates; these are supervised to some degree by the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand. One sees no reason why the normal standards of graft corruption and ineptitude apply.

The Eastern Seaboard (Chonburi & Rayong) in particular has a high concentration of these facilities and there are great concerns with respect to the monitoring of waste to ensure that waste is actually sent to the appropriate plants for treatment.

Landfills in the Chonburi/Rayong region are also reported as “overloaded” - “Currently the majority of landfill capacity overloaded is in the central and east regions. Rayong”, - http://mfuic2012.mfu.ac.th/electronic_proceeding/Documents/00_PDF/O-SC-D/O-SC-D-006.pdf

All the more incentive to find “alternative ways of disposing of industrial waste.

Only this year (June) in Rayong the following incident was reported to the police - the discovery of a “lake” of industrial waste covered in polythene next to Dok Krai Reservoir in Pluak Daeng. This is suspected of being 200,000 tons of toxic waste that went missing the year before. It threatens to contamination the water supply but as yet, 4 months on, it hasn’t been publicly identified or attributed.

So when it comes to pollution whether air land or water and how it affects the health of those living there, it is way too simplistic to suggest that being “upwind of a factory or two is a satisfactory guarantee of safety - the waste and pollutants move about - due to both natural and man-made reasons and without a detailed knowledge of how they are created and then disposed of it is very hard to tell what is going on.... and the authorities aren’t helping.

WOW!.....you sure are long winded The simple version is ....Chonburi and Rayong are Provinces which cover LARGE areas.....To say that ALL of Rayong province is EQUALLY affected by "pollution" is of it self a false statement. A little more specifics are in order as again you are talking GENERALLY .

Airbagwill · October 28, 2017

GENERALLY .Generally. - ? I don’t think you really understand my post

Your premises are quite inaccurate.....

“.....To say that ALL of Rayong province is EQUALLY affected by "pollution" is of it self a false statement” - I’m sure it is, and where do you get that from?

-Then you suggest I am “talking generally” (whatever that implies appears rather obscure) - I’m quite precise about pollution and its types, sources and behavior - furthermore they are not MY ideas, they are from various reports - government and otherwise - that outline the situation in those changwats. I don’t make up these ideas myself - unlike some appear to do. You on the other hand have utterly failed to outline your premise outside the parameters of 2 AQs in Rayong.

It would seem you are fishing for an argument where one doesn’t exist.

It seems you need to do two things

Firstly - look at a map - (BTW pollution pays no attention to maps or whether it is in a town/village or countryside).....

Secondly read up on how pollution spreads. I’ve touched on it above.

When you have done that maybe you could come up with a list of places in Chonburi and Rayong where you thin you can “hide” from pollution.

While you’re at it you may as well include Chachoengsao changwat as well as that has similar problems and is part of the projected EEC.

I think the problem you exemplify a perspective that many of the expats in Thailand, retired or otherwise have and that is no real idea of the extent of industry in the Chonburi/Rayong provinces, which apart from petrochemicals, electronics houses the ninth largest motor industry in the world.

For 20 years my job has taken me round to virtually every industrial estate between Bangkok and the Eastern border of Rayong, and I get a strong feeling that many foreigners I meet simply don’t appreciate the extent of industry right on their doorsteps - especially in terms of potential pollution.

And to this the endemic corruption of Thailand and the unregulated development and insufficient infrastructure and you have the recipe for a serious and pretty endemic problem.

Finally if you disagree with anything I’ve posted, rather than vaguely moving goal posts around, pick out a point and construct an argument against it - I’ll be happy to respond

beachproperty · October 28, 2017

15 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

GENERALLY .Generally. - ? I don’t think you really understand my post

Your premises are quite inaccurate.....

“.....To say that ALL of Rayong province is EQUALLY affected by "pollution" is of it self a false statement” - I’m sure it is, and where do you get that from?

-Then you suggest I am “talking generally” (whatever that implies appears rather obscure) - I’m quite precise about pollution and its types, sources and behavior - furthermore they are not MY ideas, they are from various reports - government and otherwise - that outline the situation in those changwats. I don’t make up these ideas myself - unlike some appear to do. You on the other hand have utterly failed to outline your premise outside the parameters of 2 AQs in Rayong.

It would seem you are fishing for an argument where one doesn’t exist.

It seems you need to do two things

Firstly - look at a map - (BTW pollution pays no attention to maps or whether it is in a town/village or countryside).....

Secondly read up on how pollution spreads. I’ve touched on it above.

When you have done that maybe you could come up with a list of places in Chonburi and Rayong where you thin you can “hide” from pollution.

While you’re at it you may as well include Chachoengsao changwat as well as that has similar problems and is part of the projected EEC.

I think the problem you exemplify a perspective that many of the expats in Thailand, retired or otherwise have and that is no real idea of the extent of industry in the Chonburi/Rayong provinces, which apart from petrochemicals, electronics houses the ninth largest motor industry in the world.

For 20 years my job has taken me round to virtually every industrial estate between Bangkok and the Eastern border of Rayong, and I get a strong feeling that many foreigners I meet simply don’t appreciate the extent of industry right on their doorsteps - especially in terms of potential pollution.

And to this the endemic corruption of Thailand and the unregulated development and insufficient infrastructure and you have the recipe for a serious and pretty endemic problem.

Finally if you disagree with anything I’ve posted, rather than vaguely moving goal posts around, pick out a point and construct an argument against it - I’ll be happy to respond

Blah, Blah, Blah......You have not cited one official study done so why should I be specific (although I have) YOu have continued to paint the whole of Rayong Province with your single stroke of pollution...Which is inherently WRONG!

I never said there was no pollution .....EVERYWHERE has pollution to some extent! That is the nature of industrial man. So to say that the man living right next to an industrial plant has the same amount of pollution as the man living 50 kilometers away is inherently wrong. The supporting study is "logic" so I will presume you have no notion what I am talking about as presumed by your in depth thesis which you have so kindly ranted on about here in TV>

Rayong is 3500 sq kilometers.....Pretty big area!

Airbagwill · October 28, 2017

2 hours ago, beachproperty said:

Blah, Blah, Blah......You have not cited one official study done so why should I be specific (although I have) YOu have continued to paint the whole of Rayong Province with your single stroke of pollution...Which is inherently WRONG!

I never said there was no pollution .....EVERYWHERE has pollution to some extent! That is the nature of industrial man. So to say that the man living right next to an industrial plant has the same amount of pollution as the man living 50 kilometers away is inherently wrong. The supporting study is "logic" so I will presume you have no notion what I am talking about as presumed by your in depth thesis which you have so kindly ranted on about here in TV>

Rayong is 3500 sq kilometers.....Pretty big area!

Yes I have - several - but this is unfortunately now pigeon chess - you have demonstrated your inability to come up with a reasoned argument.

Airbagwill · October 29, 2017

I shouldn't really bother but you do realise that in Rayong you physically can't be 55 km from industry. (your figure)?

Rimmer · October 29, 2017

Some posts culminating in a personal attack have been removed, cool it please

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

4 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

I shouldn't really bother but you do realise that in Rayong you physically can't be 55 km from industry. (your figure)?

AND why would that be? ....you're ASSUMING that there is some industrial estate smack dab in the middle of Rayong province.

The southern border is sea and Bang Phe marks (close enough) the Middle along the southern border. Where is the industry in Bang Phe?

or are you saying "fishing" constitutes an

industrial polluter

Just as aside , during your 20 stint visiting all these industrial sites .....Have you ever been east of the City of Rayong ? and WHY? once you get past Rayong on the coast there is basicly farms.

Airbagwill · October 29, 2017

2 hours ago, beachproperty said:

Yes, I don't know why you bother !

but how do you figure that you can't be 55 km from industry? And what do you classify as Industry?

And even if I am 55 km from Industry and I live on the beach .....that's the life I live....

How about you? Where do you live in Thailand (if you do at ALL) .....I know, I know you worked 40 years in the industrial complex here in Thailand (as a Janitor?)

I'm not assuming, I read the relevant information as it appears - I've posted the reports - both government and NGO.

You really, really need to get a map....do you even drive around your area?

-BTW i was in Chantaburi last week - more industry! I frequently drive that part of the coast - the first time I visited Koh Samed was 1994.

Most industry is due west or directly North of Ban Phe the industrial estates are concentrated north and west all less than 50 km from Ban Bhe

To the east individual factories discharge into local waterways and apart from Engineering they are fruit and sugar processing works. Sugar in particular is very dirty work....as a Queenslander I can vouch for that.

Various Industrial Estate Companies have Estates out that way - if fyou look at the map you can even see the grid systems of roads already awaiting the EEC expansion.

This is just a few of the industries I know to be withing 50 km ( about 30 miles) of Ban Phe: -

Rojana, PinThong, Hemeraj amongst others.

Caterpillar

Beku

Electrolux

PTT - Aromatics

Michelin (steel mill)

Massive Petrochemical Complex, Rayong

Ford Motor Company

Hemaraj Rayong Ind Est

Fujitsu Ten and Rojana Industrial Estate

Asia Industry

Dow Chemicals - Ban Chang

ASM - recent fire (Ban Chang)

Map Tha phut

Various sugar, rubber and Fruit processing factories

The company names I mention are not solitary factories - (some employ up to 4000 people) they are located on huge industrial estates.

One of the characteristics of most of these estates is that they are located about 5 to 10 kilometers off the main thoroughfares.....this way passers by are actually unaware of the massive amount of industry they are passing - all they see is a nicely laid out floral border with an archway and a security guardhouse. Let down your window, you’ll sometimes be able to smell them though!

... and lets not forget 200.000 tons of illegal waste dumped at the Dok Krai reservoir that is seeping into the water supplies catchment area(55 km)

Yes - agriculture is an industry....the area has rubber, animals feeds, fruit and sugar.

The agriculture in the area is using pesticides etc. that are illegal in the EU and other countries, the run off into water supplies is affecting fish stocks in both fresh water and the sea. Quite apart from that the pollution form the industry can enter the food chain and is then consumed by those who buy locally.

I’m sorry if you’ve bought property in that region, I know many have and I suppose you can be happy that the authorities, both local and otherwise are doing their very best to make access to information about the region very difficult.

As this thread te OP wads about air pollution in particular, you might like this report from 2014 which covers aspects of air quality for all of eastern Thailand, you can even see graphs for air assimilative capacity for Sulfur Dioxide and Nitrogen

Dioxide at Khao chamao.

when it comes to air-born pollutants 55 km is no protection at all.

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

7 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I'm not assuming, I read the relevant information as it appears - I've posted the reports - both government and NGO.

You really, really need to get a map....do you even drive around your area?

-BTW i was in Chantaburi last week - more industry! I frequently drive that part of the coast - the first time I visited Koh Samed was 1994.

Most industry is due west or directly North of Ban Phe the industrial estates are concentrated north and west all less than 50 km from Ban Bhe

To the east individual factories discharge into local waterways and apart from Engineering they are fruit and sugar processing works. Sugar in particular is very dirty work....as a Queenslander I can vouch for that.

Various Industrial Estate Companies have Estates out that way - if fyou look at the map you can even see the grid systems of roads already awaiting the EEC expansion.

This is just a few of the industries I know to be withing 50 km ( about 30 miles) of Ban Phe: -

Rojana, PinThong, Hemeraj amongst others.

Caterpillar

Beku

Electrolux

PTT - Aromatics

Michelin (steel mill)

Massive Petrochemical Complex, Rayong

Ford Motor Company

Hemaraj Rayong Ind Est

Fujitsu Ten and Rojana Industrial Estate

Asia Industry

Dow Chemicals - Ban Chang

ASM - recent fire (Ban Chang)

Map Tha phut

Various sugar, rubber and Fruit processing factories

The company names I mention are not solitary factories - (some employ up to 4000 people) they are located on huge industrial estates.

One of the characteristics of most of these estates is that they are located about 5 to 10 kilometers off the main thoroughfares.....this way passers by are actually unaware of the massive amount of industry they are passing - all they see is a nicely laid out floral border with an archway and a security guardhouse. Let down your window, you’ll sometimes be able to smell them though!

... and lets not forget 200.000 tons of illegal waste dumped at the Dok Krai reservoir that is seeping into the water supplies catchment area(55 km)

Yes - agriculture is an industry....the area has rubber, animals feeds, fruit and sugar.

The agriculture in the area is using pesticides etc. that are illegal in the EU and other countries, the run off into water supplies is affecting fish stocks in both fresh water and the sea. Quite apart from that the pollution form the industry can enter the food chain and is then consumed by those who buy locally.

I’m sorry if you’ve bought property in that region, I know many have and I suppose you can be happy that the authorities, both local and otherwise are doing their very best to make access to information about the region very difficult.

i

I do not dispute the number of Companies or Estates housing the companies....They don't call it the Detroit of the east for nothing.

My point was ...and is....if you live on the beach your pretty much isolated from the pollution they create.

I know you'll vehemently disagree by saying "pollution knows no map" But I do get out driving up and down the coast all the time.

Apparently you see dirt and pollution EVERYWHERE ....whereas I see the trees, the water, the clear blue sky and the farms. Each to their own!

Where do you live? Queensland ? Or is that too personal a question. You apparently have been coming to Thailand for at least 20 years. I myself have chosen to live here, and more particularly the beach area of Rayong for the last 12 years (Bangkok 3 years before) and have ABSOLUTELY no regrets.

There is going to be pollution no matter where one lives ....But there is less pollution here in Rayong (Where I live) than there is in Bangkok.

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

58 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

As this thread te OP wads about air pollution in particular, you might like this report from 2014 which covers aspects of air quality for all of eastern Thailand, you can even see graphs for air assimilative capacity for Sulfur Dioxide and Nitrogen

Dioxide at Khao chamao.

when it comes to air-born pollutants 55 km is no protection at all.

So where is the citation to the 2014 report! Please provide the site that provides such report.

Yes!!!!! I would like to the report from 2014 but as always you have failed to provide the report or where it is

I'm guessing you don't live in Thailand as your remark about my buying property? Farangs can't own real property in Thailand ....Polluted airspace ..YES

Airbagwill · October 29, 2017

here's the report

Airbagwill · October 29, 2017

do you seriously believe that pollution stays away from the seaside? What kind of logic is that? quite clearly the oil slick that hit Koh Samed in 2013 didn't know about your rule.

....there have been something like 12 oil leaks in that region since then.

"

I see the trees, the water, the clear blue sky and the farms. Each to their own!

" - that again is awfully naive as most pollution is invisible - the first you know about it is when you develop a rash or the police come round to tell you to close all your windows.

Anyway I get the feeling you are going argue that black is white if it countered my post and I think you don't have an argument at all really, just a lingering, nagging feeling that you may have invested in the wrong property.

you are certainly very poor at drawing inferences from my posts and seem to prefer to just make assumptions

anyhoo,as I said before, I'm not into pigeon chess and you have failed to come up with a single argument based on anything I've written and I don't see that changing.

but........please don't post any more nonsense as I can't resist replying to it.

Airbagwill · October 29, 2017

1 hour ago, beachproperty said:

So where is the citation to the 2014 report! Please provide the site that provides such report.

Yes!!!!! I would like to the report from 2014 but as always you have failed to provide the report or where it is

I'm guessing you don't live in Thailand as your remark about my buying property? Farangs can't own real property in Thailand ....Polluted airspace ..YES

as always??

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

7 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

as always??

YES! As always! This has been the FIRST time you have actually put in the information for the results to which you referred

AND as the report reads "

"The results showed that temporal variation of assimilative

capacity of air pollution in the study area in which the highest carrying capacity was in November.

This is due to the

influence of the northeast monsoon resulting in high dilution ability of atmosphere during this time."

So except for the anomaly of Nov. where the Northeast Monsoons are at work It appears Rayong is fairly good for a 3rd world Country.

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

Still curious as to where you live? Must NOT be Thailand as all this pollution would have killed you be now.

Also you write " pollution is invisible - the first you know about it is when you develop a rash or the police come round to tell you to close all your windows. "

Since neither (the rash or police coming round) has occurred then I would be correct in saying that the pollution level is LOW.

Have fun playing pigeon chess by yourself!

beachproperty · October 29, 2017

Airbagwell.......In the future you should give ALL references to other peoples materials the credit they are due.

Such as your pdf report .....report it like follows"

http://www.ijesd.org/papers/475-CD0149.pdf

Wim1954 · October 30, 2017

On 28-10-2017 at 2:09 PM, beachproperty said:

Blah, Blah, Blah......You have not cited one official study done so why should I be specific (although I have) YOu have continued to paint the whole of Rayong Province with your single stroke of pollution...Which is inherently WRONG!

I never said there was no pollution .....EVERYWHERE has pollution to some extent! That is the nature of industrial man. So to say that the man living right next to an industrial plant has the same amount of pollution as the man living 50 kilometers away is inherently wrong. The supporting study is "logic" so I will presume you have no notion what I am talking about as presumed by your in depth thesis which you have so kindly ranted on about here in TV>

Rayong is 3500 sq kilometers.....Pretty big area!

That doesn't make any sence at all FOR THE LAST TIME THERE IS NO POLLUTION AT THE BEACHES IN THE CITY OF RAYONG STOP WITH YOUR IDIOTE POSTS HERE.

Airbagwill · October 30, 2017

Why are people so keen to deny pollution in Rayong?

The only way to tackle it is to admit it is happening.

Denial just sweeps it under the carpet and allows it to accumulate.

As I’ve mentioned before - pollutants don’t have maps or follow city limits - the pollutants in the Gulf and those that run in from the mainland countries (especially the industrial areas) around the gulf are distributed around by wind and tides.....nowhere is immune.

... the Gulf of Siam is polluted in general and the area around Rayong is an industrial hotspot.

Here are some complaints reports and observations on sea pollution in Rayong.

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=pollution+on+beaches+at+Rayong&lr=&as_qdr=all&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU8sLP05fXAhVEs48KHRpZCVUQ7AkIPg&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=4b32Wf8Zyfy8BL27kZAD

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Beaches-polluted-in-Rayong-on-a-daily-basis-by-tan-30264284.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com.ph/ShowTopic-g2098646-i28466-k8614710-Polluted_Beaches-Rayong_Province.html

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/ReSizes/ImageGalleryLarge/Global/international/photos/oil/2013/oil%20spill/GP04PJM.jpg

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/thailand-oil-spill/blog/46112/

50,000 litres of crude

“The spill started Saturday morning, about 20 kilometres southeast of the Map Ta Phut seaport on the southern shore of the mainland. PTT, the state-owned administrator of PTT Global Chemical, tried to downplay the full extent of the leak by claiming that the oil slick had "effectively been dissolved".

The clean-up left gallons of toxic chemicals at the sea bed. Tese will in time be spread around by tides and currents.

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwji8Kuh1JfXAhUWTo8KHXsIBxYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shutterstock.com%2Fpic-215436850%2Fstock-photo-garbage-and-wastes-on-the-beach-rayong-thailand.html&psig=AOvVaw00OtdBWsvcGJ0odUilGhXi&ust=1509429242330732

http://true-beachfront.com/guide/rayong-thailand-good-bad-of-rayongs-sand-water-beaches

Thailand refuses to test or release test results for water quality of the seas around their coastline......

water quality on Rayong beaches not particularly good

The water on Rayong's beaches rarely appears crystal clear, though it usually seems clean and clean enough to the average observer. Families allow their children to swim in it freely. The real story of water quality is not so bright, however, for there is much that is dissolved along with unseen particulates. The government's Pollution Control Department last rated a Rayong beach in 2011, when it was awarded just three stars from a best-health maximum of five. That's not dangerous for health, but it's a poor sign for the future of this coastline, especially when the same area had rated four stars in 2006. Poor water quality is not restricted to Rayong, however, for all beaches in the upper Gulf of Thailand suffer in the same manner, with almost none still able to attain the four star status they had some years earlier.

“rubbish from all Thailand washes into gulf onto beaches

It's a sad fact of life in Thailand – environmental awareness is near zero, and virtually everyone discards their rubbish carelessly. The country is awash in trash and plastic bags, and huge volumes are flushed down the river systems into the Gulf of Thailand. Plastic discarded in the far north of Thailand might eventually find its way to a beach in Rayong. The resort owners fight an endless battle to keep the beach clean in front of their establishments. But it also means that visitors can run into plastic rubbish while swimming, or find it washed ashore spoiling an otherwise beautiful, natural beach.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/86978-high-pollution-in-rayong/

“It's at the centre of a huge, largely unregulated chemical industry. You'd be mad to live there if you had a choice. Same goes for all the provinces around Bangkok which are heavily industrialised. A lot of the country is a chemical cesspit for sure and certain.”

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30239113

Activist kills himself “with 3 shots” in his car (????)

Sutthi Atchasai, founder of the nongovernmental organization Eastern People's Network

https://cen.acs.org/articles/88/i12/Impasse-Grows-Thailand.html

“The facilities are owned by dozens of famous chemical companies. Many are Japanese firms, such as Mitsubishi Rayon and Asahi Kasei. Dow Chemical and Bayer are there, as are the local conglomerates Siam Cement and PTT. The companies were caught off-guard when the Thai judiciary froze construction of the plants last autumn, years or just months after the Thai government had authorized the projects.”

“The drama at Map Ta Phut involves, on one side, residents of Rayong province who are concerned about the environmental and health impact of the chemical industry. On the other side are major chemical companies that profess an eagerness to meet or exceed any health, environmental, or safety standards imposed by the state. In the middle stands a wobbly Thai government whose task it is to resolve the thorny impasse.”

The oil spil

“On July 27, 2013, a pipeline owned by PTTGC Plc, a Thai state-owned oil company, burst while oil was being transferred from an undersea well to a tanker.[1] PTTGC then followed the operation procedures for oil spill management. The Company used boats and airplanes to spray oil-spill dispersants, 0,612 litres of Slickgone NS and 6,930 litres of Super-Dispersant 25, which are permitted by the Department of Pollution Control to be used in Thailand, because they have low toxicity, are biodegradable and do not bio-accumulate or cause mutation and degeneration. It released also a boom to contain the spilled oil within the area. However, the boom did not work well due to bad weather.[ - wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayong_oil_spill

http://www.greenpeace.org/seasia/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/Thailand-Civil-Society-Statement-The-oil-spill-en/

the accumulative effects of pollution on the Rayong fishing industry.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30321893

as the chemicals spread - “PEOPLE in Rayong, especially fishermen, are still suffering the consequences of a major oil spill in Rayong Bay four years ago, because fish have not returned. However, PTT Global Chemical PLC (PTTGC), which took control of the cleanup, insists that the marine ecosystem has recovered to its normal state.”

Wim1954 · October 30, 2017

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Why are people so keen to deny pollution in Rayong?

The only way to tackle it is to admit it is happening.

Denial just sweeps it under the carpet and allows it to accumulate.

As I’ve mentioned before - pollutants don’t have maps or follow city limits - the pollutants in the Gulf and those that run in from the mainland countries (especially the industrial areas) around the gulf are distributed around by wind and tides.....nowhere is immune.

... the Gulf of Siam is polluted in general and the area around Rayong is an industrial hotspot.

Here are some complaints reports and observations on sea pollution in Rayong.

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=pollution+on+beaches+at+Rayong&lr=&as_qdr=all&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU8sLP05fXAhVEs48KHRpZCVUQ7AkIPg&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=4b32Wf8Zyfy8BL27kZAD

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Beaches-polluted-in-Rayong-on-a-daily-basis-by-tan-30264284.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com.ph/ShowTopic-g2098646-i28466-k8614710-Polluted_Beaches-Rayong_Province.html

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/ReSizes/ImageGalleryLarge/Global/international/photos/oil/2013/oil%20spill/GP04PJM.jpg

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/thailand-oil-spill/blog/46112/

50,000 litres of crude

“The spill started Saturday morning, about 20 kilometres southeast of the Map Ta Phut seaport on the southern shore of the mainland. PTT, the state-owned administrator of PTT Global Chemical, tried to downplay the full extent of the leak by claiming that the oil slick had "effectively been dissolved".

The clean-up left gallons of toxic chemicals at the sea bed. Tese will in time be spread around by tides and currents.

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwji8Kuh1JfXAhUWTo8KHXsIBxYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shutterstock.com%2Fpic-215436850%2Fstock-photo-garbage-and-wastes-on-the-beach-rayong-thailand.html&psig=AOvVaw00OtdBWsvcGJ0odUilGhXi&ust=1509429242330732

http://true-beachfront.com/guide/rayong-thailand-good-bad-of-rayongs-sand-water-beaches

Thailand refuses to test or release test results for water quality of the seas around their coastline......

water quality on Rayong beaches not particularly good

The water on Rayong's beaches rarely appears crystal clear, though it usually seems clean and clean enough to the average observer. Families allow their children to swim in it freely. The real story of water quality is not so bright, however, for there is much that is dissolved along with unseen particulates. The government's Pollution Control Department last rated a Rayong beach in 2011, when it was awarded just three stars from a best-health maximum of five. That's not dangerous for health, but it's a poor sign for the future of this coastline, especially when the same area had rated four stars in 2006. Poor water quality is not restricted to Rayong, however, for all beaches in the upper Gulf of Thailand suffer in the same manner, with almost none still able to attain the four star status they had some years earlier.

“rubbish from all Thailand washes into gulf onto beaches

It's a sad fact of life in Thailand – environmental awareness is near zero, and virtually everyone discards their rubbish carelessly. The country is awash in trash and plastic bags, and huge volumes are flushed down the river systems into the Gulf of Thailand. Plastic discarded in the far north of Thailand might eventually find its way to a beach in Rayong. The resort owners fight an endless battle to keep the beach clean in front of their establishments. But it also means that visitors can run into plastic rubbish while swimming, or find it washed ashore spoiling an otherwise beautiful, natural beach.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/86978-high-pollution-in-rayong/

“It's at the centre of a huge, largely unregulated chemical industry. You'd be mad to live there if you had a choice. Same goes for all the provinces around Bangkok which are heavily industrialised. A lot of the country is a chemical cesspit for sure and certain.”

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30239113

Activist kills himself “with 3 shots” in his car (????)

Sutthi Atchasai, founder of the nongovernmental organization Eastern People's Network

https://cen.acs.org/articles/88/i12/Impasse-Grows-Thailand.html

“The facilities are owned by dozens of famous chemical companies. Many are Japanese firms, such as Mitsubishi Rayon and Asahi Kasei. Dow Chemical and Bayer are there, as are the local conglomerates Siam Cement and PTT. The companies were caught off-guard when the Thai judiciary froze construction of the plants last autumn, years or just months after the Thai government had authorized the projects.”

“The drama at Map Ta Phut involves, on one side, residents of Rayong province who are concerned about the environmental and health impact of the chemical industry. On the other side are major chemical companies that profess an eagerness to meet or exceed any health, environmental, or safety standards imposed by the state. In the middle stands a wobbly Thai government whose task it is to resolve the thorny impasse.”

The oil spil

“On July 27, 2013, a pipeline owned by PTTGC Plc, a Thai state-owned oil company, burst while oil was being transferred from an undersea well to a tanker.[1] PTTGC then followed the operation procedures for oil spill management. The Company used boats and airplanes to spray oil-spill dispersants, 0,612 litres of Slickgone NS and 6,930 litres of Super-Dispersant 25, which are permitted by the Department of Pollution Control to be used in Thailand, because they have low toxicity, are biodegradable and do not bio-accumulate or cause mutation and degeneration. It released also a boom to contain the spilled oil within the area. However, the boom did not work well due to bad weather.[ - wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayong_oil_spill

http://www.greenpeace.org/seasia/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/Thailand-Civil-Society-Statement-The-oil-spill-en/

the accumulative effects of pollution on the Rayong fishing industry.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30321893

as the chemicals spread - “PEOPLE in Rayong, especially fishermen, are still suffering the consequences of a major oil spill in Rayong Bay four years ago, because fish have not returned. However, PTT Global Chemical PLC (PTTGC), which took control of the cleanup, insists that the marine ecosystem has recovered to its normal state.”

Are you here in Rayong where are you sitting after your laptop checking the news and weather stations from the past ?

nontabury · November 1, 2017

On 30/10/2017 at 4:06 PM, Wim1954 said:

Are you here in Rayong where are you sitting after your laptop checking the news and weather stations from the past ?

I don’t know where airbagwill lives. But I can tell you that I live in Ban Chang, and unfortunately we cannot take our children down onto the beach, as one of my children always comes out in a rash. Is this due to pollution,I do not know.

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