What's up with the lies?!

[KBsinter]

On 10/23/2017 at 11:14 AM, pgrahmm said:

Not mine...She's so straight forward honest it almost takes the fun out of it....Honest to a fault....

 

She basically cannot tell a lie....

Mine is the same,unbelievable...................

[Acemaker]

15 hours ago, AjarnMartin said:

I would have thought: “Significant Other”?

Whats the difference ?

[Ulysses G.]

On 10/22/2017 at 9:14 PM, pgrahmm said:

Not mine...She's so straight forward honest it almost takes the fun out of it....Honest to a fault....

 

She basically cannot tell a lie....

My experience as well. Not all of them of course, but the important ones who I have become close to.

[Ossy]

10 hours ago, Berkshire said:

I honestly don't see Thais not trusting one another . . .

Given that compulsive lying by Thais has been as good as proven by 99% (est) of posters, are you saying that Thais are, as a race, so used to habitual lying that it presents no grounds for mistrust between themselves? That's a concept that makes the entire process of conversation a total waste of time, unless all the participants use it as a game of 'who's the best liar'

[Berkshire]

3 hours ago, Ossy said:

Given that compulsive lying by Thais has been as good as proven by 99% (est) of posters, are you saying that Thais are, as a race, so used to habitual lying that it presents no grounds for mistrust between themselves? That's a concept that makes the entire process of conversation a total waste of time, unless all the participants use it as a game of 'who's the best liar'

"99% proven that Thais are compulsive liars?"  Seriously?  What we've established here is that some of the Thais that associate with farangs on TV are questionable.  Let's put it another way.  Let's say roughly 50% of Thai females that are with farangs in Pattaya are current or former BGs (may be even higher, who knows).  By your reasoning, this would mean that 50% of all Thai females in Thailand are current or former BGs.  I would say that this conclusion is highly flawed.   

[Ossy]

29 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

"99% proven that Thais are compulsive liars?"  Seriously?  What we've established here is that some of the Thais that associate with farangs on TV are questionable.  Let's put it another way.  Let's say roughly 50% of Thai females that are with farangs in Pattaya are current or former BGs (may be even higher, who knows).  By your reasoning, this would mean that 50% of all Thai females in Thailand are current or former BGs.  I would say that this conclusion is highly flawed.   

Uh? You've totally lost me, there, B . . . what with your 50% /Thai/farang/Pattaya/BG (big, beautiful or bad girl, I presume, since my acronym checker then suggests 'base guitar') logic applying to 'all Thai females in Thailand', I'm thinking you've got a PhD in a subject I've never even heard of.

 

OK, so my '99% compulsive liars' was a little tongue-in-cheek mischief, to help get things going, sort of, but quite how my following lines relate to your stating, 'this conclusion is highly flawed' I just do not understand. Explain, if you like, but I'm quite happy to leave it there.

 

[Gecko123]

16 hours ago, Berkshire said:

I think you're going a bit over-the-top with your psychoanalysis when the question in the OP is more about "why do Thai BGs lie to farangs?"  The answer should be freakin obvious except to the most naive.  I honestly don't see Thais not trusting one another, even outside their immediate families.  There is no epidemic of mistrust in Thai society, if that's what you're getting at.  That's just paranoia in the extreme.   

My post tried to provide a little socioeconomic analysis, not psychoanalysis. I would like to credit Jared Diamond and his books 'Guns, Germs, and Steel', 'Collapse,' and 'The Third Chimpanzee' (in my opinion, all compulsory reading for Thailand ex-pats) for helping shape my perspective on Thais and Thailand. Also, the OP doesn't limit the discussion to bar girls as you claimed. In fact the OP said the woman in question was not a "business" woman, which I took to mean she wasn't a prostitute.

 

If you're saying that the prevalence and acceptability of lying in Thai culture is somehow restricted to the bar scene, I think you are badly mistaken. For starters, all those bar girls return home to their villages, educate future generations of bar girls on ways to manipulate their customers, and the entire village has a front row seat when some unsuspecting foreigner moves in and starts drinking the cool aid, so to speak. So bar girl culture influences how Thais perceive foreigners, and the acceptability and ease with which they can be taken advantage of far far beyond the confines of Pattaya and Nana Plaza, etc. I agree with other posters that lying as a conflict avoidance tool is very true, but this business that Thais make up phoney directions because they want to "save face" by not admitting they don't know the correct directions, is absolute nonesense, classic ThaiVisa mythology.

 

There is nothing whatsoever "paranoid" about my observations, which have evolved extremely slowly, with a great deal of reluctance even. I have long ago learned to avoid misunderstandings about what was agreed to by doing things like being careful about the details of the agreement, having witnesses to what was agreed, putting things in writing, and avoiding people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. I see this whole issue as a mild nuisance, not cause for building a bunker and stockpiling food supplies.

 

Regarding your comment that you don't see Thais being distrustful of one another, I can understand why you might say this. In a transaction where both sides perform at the same time, I basically agree with you. I give you money, and you give me a quart of milk. But when the transaction involves future performance, where one party pays money in exchange for future performance, that absence of trust is much more in evidence. That's why I believe you don't see that many joint-venture, cooperative type businesses here. It seems like its mostly large multi-nationals and Mom and Pop businesses, with not much in between.

 

Berkshire, I believe I have told you in the past that I respect you as a poster, but sometimes I wonder what your base of experience in Thailand is. For example, I recall you maintaining that Thai drivers were pretty much the same as drivers back in the West, something which I am mystified about how anyone could come to such a conclusion. Not only has my on-the-road experience been quite the opposite, but the carnage videos broadcast daily on the Thai news shows video example after example of driver inattention and lack of defensive driving skills. Similarly, there are endless examples of fraud, cheating, deception, sneak thievery, slight of hand,  trickery, counterfeiting, and confidence schemes (which  in the final analysis are all forms of lying). I suspect that if you start watching Thai news broadcasts, you might find our perceptions are more similar than they appear to be now.

 

Cheers.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Gecko123

[thaibeachlovers]

My wife used to lie to me, but that wasn't the problem as I expected her to. The problem was that she never discussed anything important.

[Berkshire]

6 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

If you're saying that the prevalence and acceptability of lying in Thai culture is somehow restricted to the bar scene, I think you are badly mistaken. For starters, all those bar girls return home to their villages, educate future generations of bar girls on ways to manipulate their customers, and the entire village has a front row seat when some unsuspecting foreigner moves in and starts drinking the cool aid, so to speak. So bar girl culture influences how Thais perceive foreigners, and the acceptability and ease with which they can be taken advantage of far far beyond the confines of Pattaya and Nana Plaza, etc. I agree with other posters that lying as a conflict avoidance tool is very true, but this business that Thais make up phoney directions because they want to "save face" by not admitting they don't know the correct directions, is absolute nonesense, classic ThaiVisa mythology.

 

There is nothing whatsoever "paranoid" about my observations, which have evolved extremely slowly, with a great deal of reluctance even. I have long ago learned to avoid misunderstandings about what was agreed to by doing things like being careful about the details of the agreement, having witnesses to what was agreed, putting things in writing, and avoiding people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. I see this whole issue as a mild nuisance, not cause for building a bunker and stockpiling food supplies.

 

Regarding your comment that you don't see Thais being distrustful of one another, I can understand why you might say this. In a transaction where both sides perform at the same time, I basically agree with you. I give you money, and you give me a quart of milk. But when the transaction involves future performance, where one party pays money in exchange for future performance, that absence of trust is much more in evidence. That's why I believe you don't see that many joint-venture, cooperative type businesses here. It seems like its mostly large multi-nationals and Mom and Pop businesses, with not much in between.

Gecko, I've always respected your opinions and still do.  But I assume that your opinion is based upon the Thais that you've met and associated with.  I don't know them, so I can't dispute your claims.  At the same time, you don't know the Thais that I've met and associated with...which means you can't dispute my claims.  So I'll just leave it at that. 

[Berkshire]

7 hours ago, Ossy said:

Uh? You've totally lost me, there, B . . . what with your 50% /Thai/farang/Pattaya/BG (big, beautiful or bad girl, I presume, since my acronym checker then suggests 'base guitar') logic applying to 'all Thai females in Thailand', I'm thinking you've got a PhD in a subject I've never even heard of.

 

OK, so my '99% compulsive liars' was a little tongue-in-cheek mischief, to help get things going, sort of, but quite how my following lines relate to your stating, 'this conclusion is highly flawed' I just do not understand. Explain, if you like, but I'm quite happy to leave it there.

 

Ok, I can explain.  The Thais that most farangs associate with are not representative of Thais in Thailand.  Especially the women.  The majority of Thais--and I'm thinking 90% or so--don't deal with farangs at all on a day-to-day basis.  So how can farangs have any idea how the "typical" Thai thinks or behaves?  Unless you speak fluent Thai, you really have no idea. 

[MaeJoMTB]

33 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Ok, I can explain.  The Thais that most farangs associate with are not representative of Thais in Thailand.  Especially the women.  The majority of Thais--and I'm thinking 90% or so--don't deal with farangs at all on a day-to-day basis.  So how can farangs have any idea how the "typical" Thai thinks or behaves?  Unless you speak fluent Thai, you really have no idea. 

OK, so my wife isn't different, but I live in an entirely Thai middle class moobaan (1 foreigner house me, 250 Thai houses).

And they all lie cheat and steal from each other. Borrow money they can't repay.

I tell my wife not to give them credit, but she does, then the boys on the scooter have to call on them.

Then my wife's pal leaves her husband because he beats her and has another woman and baby, they have 50-100M in land between them. Police reports, Amphur office, Land office, hiding and threats, then today she went back to him.

 

What about Prayut, Thaksin, Yingluck ............ Red Bull ........ are they different IYHO?

Edited October 25, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[Berkshire]

33 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

OK, so my wife isn't different, but I live in an entirely Thai middle class moobaan (1 foreigner house me, 250 Thai houses).

And they all lie cheat and steal from each other. Borrow money they can't repay.

I tell my wife not to give them credit, but she does, then the boys on the scooter have to call on them.

Then my wife's pal leaves her husband because he beats her and has another woman and baby, they have 50-100M in land between them. Police reports, Amphur office, Land office, hiding and threats, then today she went back to him.

 

What about Prayut, Thaksin, Yingluck ............ Red Bull ........ are they different IYHO?

Come on.  ..."they all lie cheat and steal from each other"....???  If that's really how you feel, then we can agree to disagree. 

[Been there done that]

9 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Come on.  ..."they all lie cheat and steal from each other"....???  If that's really how you feel, then we can agree to disagree. 

My guess is that he does not feel it, he sees it happening.

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

4 minutes ago, Been there done that said:

My guess is that he does not feel it, he sees it happening.

 

 

Maybe some, but certainly not all. I have had mostly good experiences dealing with Thai students and Thai staff for my business. There are plenty of bad apples though - like anywhere.

[sanemax]

5 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

Maybe some, but certainly not all. I have had mostly good experiences dealing with Thai students and Thai staff for my business. There are plenty of bad apples though - like anywhere.

Although he is talking about the people in his life and you are talking about the people in your life, two different sets of people

[sanemax]

23 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

 

If you're saying that the prevalence and acceptability of lying in Thai culture is somehow restricted to the bar scene, I think you are badly mistaken. For starters, all those bar girls return home to their villages, educate future generations of bar girls on ways to manipulate their customers, and the entire village has a front row seat when some unsuspecting foreigner moves in and starts drinking the cool aid, so to speak. So bar girl culture influences how Thais perceive foreigners, and the acceptability and ease with which they can be taken advantage of far far beyond the confines of Pattaya and Nana Plaza, etc.

 

 

   There is a whole new World out there , a completely different Thailand , away from Pattaya and Issan .

    Prostitutes and their serial customers are the lower levels of society

[transam]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

 

   There is a whole new World out there , a completely different Thailand , away from Pattaya and Issan .

    Prostitutes and their serial customers are the lower levels of society

Why the Isaan comment....?

[MaeJoMTB]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

 

   There is a whole new World out there , a completely different Thailand , away from Pattaya and Issan .

    Prostitutes and their serial customers are the lower levels of society

555, prostitutes are everywhere, in every rural village, in every road of every Thai town.

In Chiang Mai, about 25% of the girls in my kids uni class are 'selling it' to meet their uni fees.

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, MaeJoMTB said:

555, prostitutes are everywhere, in every rural village, in every road of every Thai town.

In Chiang Mai, about 25% of the girls in my kids uni class are 'selling it' to meet their uni fees.

That is quite an exaggeration .

Could you PM me their contact details, I shall check it out for myself

[jerojero]

This is a Thai forum and threads about Thai partners is to be expected .
Constant references to Donald Trump quite often turns the thread to a discussion about Trump .
   I am just so tired of reading his name on here

But, but, but,.he's such a popular fellow....I mean <deleted>.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[samsensam]

 

Ok, I can explain.  The Thais that most farangs associate with are not representative of Thais in Thailand.  Especially the women.  The majority of Thais--and I'm thinking 90% or so--don't deal with farangs at all on a day-to-day basis.  So how can farangs have any idea how the "typical" Thai thinks or behaves?  Unless you speak fluent Thai, you really have no idea.

 

absolutely right, the vast majority of foreigners here associate with lower class under educated thais. plus they know their partner well but how many other locals can they truly call a friend?

 

my thai friends are all well educated, professionals, they speak good english and most have attended western universities and/or have travelled abroad.

 

the view many foreigners have of thais and thailand bears very little resemblance to the true nature of the people and culture.

 

get out there, away from the bars, away from the lower class uneducated, make some friends with the locals and you will be pleasantly surprised.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, samsensam said:

 

Ok, I can explain.  The Thais that most farangs associate with are not representative of Thais in Thailand.  Especially the women.  The majority of Thais--and I'm thinking 90% or so--don't deal with farangs at all on a day-to-day basis.  So how can farangs have any idea how the "typical" Thai thinks or behaves?  Unless you speak fluent Thai, you really have no idea.

 

absolutely right, the vast majority of foreigners here associate with lower class under educated thais. plus they know their partner well but how many other locals can they truly call a friend?

 

my thai friends are all well educated, professionals, they speak good english and most have attended western universities and/or have travelled abroad.

 

the view many foreigners have of thais and thailand bears very little resemblance to the true nature of the people and culture.

 

get out there, away from the bars, away from the lower class uneducated, make some friends with the locals and you will be pleasantly surprised.

What a load of TOSH....

[LannaGuy]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:24 AM, Ulysses G. said:

My experience as well. Not all of them of course, but the important ones who I have become close to.

 

Well can I cast a slightly different take? The Thais I have become close to would be mortified to think they had lied and are good people. And sometimes they do lie but they just don't realize it.

 

It's sort of a genetic thing that doesn't value ethics highly and the 'face' is so inbuilt that even the very best of the lovely Thais I know will say something to save that 'face' and would be horrified to think I thought they had lied and, of course, in their cultural paradigm they haven't.  

[LannaGuy]

4 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

555, prostitutes are everywhere, in every rural village, in every road of every Thai town.

In Chiang Mai, about 25% of the girls in my kids uni class are 'selling it' to meet their uni fees.

 

I have met many Uni girls supplementing their tuition and I have two choices:

 

1.  be self-righteous and refuse to contemplate 'paying' thereby missing out on great sex, with a young hussy, while I'm still able...

or

 

     2.  Be thankful most Thais are 'flexible' and open minded about the 'exchange'  and I can bang them for a 'consideration' of their gasoline expenses

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm now let me think...  

[Ossy]

28 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

Well can I cast a slightly different take? The Thais I have become close to would be mortified to think they had lied and are good people. And sometimes they do lie but they just don't realize it.

 

It's sort of a genetic thing that doesn't value ethics highly and the 'face' is so inbuilt that even the very best of the lovely Thais I know will say something to save that 'face' and would be horrified to think I thought they had lied and, of course, in their cultural paradigm they haven't.  

Yes . . . simple but complex, I guess you might call them . . . bloody liars, too

[Ossy]

26 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

I have met many Uni girls supplementing their tuition and I have two choices:

 

1.  be self-righteous and refuse to contemplate 'paying' thereby missing out on great sex, with a young hussy, while I'm still able...

or

 

     2.  Be thankful most Thais are 'flexible' and open minded about the 'exchange'  and I can bang them for a 'consideration' of their gasoline expenses

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm now let me think...  

That's a cracker!

[Gracas]

5 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

555, prostitutes are everywhere, in every rural village, in every road of every Thai town.

In Chiang Mai, about 25% of the girls in my kids uni class are 'selling it' to meet their uni fees.

People have always said that it is good to learn a trade when you are young.

[Been there done that]

7 hours ago, samsensam said:

 

Ok, I can explain.  The Thais that most farangs associate with are not representative of Thais in Thailand.  Especially the women.  The majority of Thais--and I'm thinking 90% or so--don't deal with farangs at all on a day-to-day basis.  So how can farangs have any idea how the "typical" Thai thinks or behaves?  Unless you speak fluent Thai, you really have no idea.

 

absolutely right, the vast majority of foreigners here associate with lower class under educated thais. plus they know their partner well but how many other locals can they truly call a friend?

 

my thai friends are all well educated, professionals, they speak good english and most have attended western universities and/or have travelled abroad.

 

the view many foreigners have of thais and thailand bears very little resemblance to the true nature of the people and culture.

 

get out there, away from the bars, away from the lower class uneducated, make some friends with the locals and you will be pleasantly surprised.

In fact you say following; the majority of thais are educated so why try to find the needles in the haystack by associating with the lower class and uneducated thais. . 

 

Get real mate, as if education, class and wealth has got all to do with lieing or not. You do realise that the overwhelming part of the population is uneducated and is conditioned into Thainess.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Been there done that
Incomplete post

[Gecko123]

On ‎26‎/‎10‎/‎2560 at 12:33 PM, sanemax said:

 

   There is a whole new World out there , a completely different Thailand , away from Pattaya and Issan .

    Prostitutes and their serial customers are the lower levels of society

I've been coming to Thailand since '86, have lived in a small village in central Thailand for 14 years, have 23 years of Thai language study under my belt, and have traveled to every region of Thailand, so your preachy comment that I need to get out into the "real" Thailand was woefully misaimed at me.

 

The idea that as soon as you cross some provincial borderline  or if you travel the back roads of Thailand long enough, you will eventually stumble upon Tamboon "We No Lie" (Rao No Gohok ) is just silly. People circulate throughout Thailand constantly, so these lines of demarcation are increasingly blurred. Many, if not most, rural people do stints in large metropolitan and tourist areas not only for work (taxi and transport drivers, construction, restaurant,  hotel, factory, and  retail  workers, etc.)  but also to pursue their educational goals. Ask anybody on the streets of Bangkok where they were born, and chances are it wasn't Bangkok. As for your putdown about Isaan (note spelling), many, including many Thais as well as me, think that Isaan is Thailand's cultural heart (especially musically).

 

In my experience, the idea that you are going to encounter more trustworthy people out in Thailand's rural heartland is very questionable.  More down to earth, more laid back, less jaded by influxes of tourists? Sure. But more honest? Not so sure about that. In fact, quite the opposite may be the case. In rural Thailand, the level of poverty is high (contributing to a hardscrabble 'You do what you gotta do' mentality). The quality of government schools is quite low (meaning the quality of education both academicallty as well as morally is quite poor) , the quality of parenting often leaves a lot to be desired (kids dumped off with granny for years on end while the parents  go to Bangkok for work, or the parents  are incarcerated for drug offenses, have died prematurely from alcoholism, drug abuse or automobile accidents, or abandon the children through divorce) all of which contributes to poor moral guidance from either schools, religious institutions or parents. And don't forget the "brain drain" throughout rural Thailand where just about everyone with any aptitude splits to the big city to  pursue their goals, leaving behind a dearth of academic and character role models for kids to emmulate.

 

As I pointed out earlier, bar culture is in no way restricted to just sex-tourism epicenters. These girls often marry and settle down in the same rural areas they came from. Yes, some of these relationships are solid, but some of them are strictly mercenary, and the whole village knows what is going on when this is the case and take their cues from the Thai wife. If she's taking advantage of her husband, oftentimes everyone wants to get in on the act. The wayward bargirl/wife sets the tone about the extent to which their foreign hubby can be taken advantage of, and sadly, in many cases the message is its a free for all.

 

I'm not just basing my comments on my personal experience. I talk to Thais all the time about how they perceive foreigners. I also talk to Thais about how they perceive other Thais. I've been around long enough in my village where I know people who can't be trusted. I've often double-checked with Thai neighbors and fellow villagers how they perceive another Thai, and I have generally almost always found that if I don't trust a person, most other Thais don't as well. So I have a fair degree of confidence about my perceptions on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Gecko123

[MaeJoMTB]

20 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

These girls often marry and settle down in the same rural areas they came from. Yes, some of these relationships are solid, but some of them are strictly mercenary, and the whole village knows what is going on when this is the case and take their cues from the Thai wife. If she's taking advantage of her husband, oftentimes everyone wants to get in on the act. The wayward bargirl/wife sets the tone about the extent to which their foreign hubby can be taken advantage of, and sadly, in many cases the message is its a free for all.

Mine started off as mercenary, yet we've been together 8 years and have children.

Her longest previous Thai relationship was 6 months.

 

She's made around 100k/year off me plus running expenses. Very cheap.