Type "O" Retirement Visa Question Please

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

Thank you. This is also good to know. Sorry I didn't word my question more clearly, assuming the 90 day visa would expire while traveling outside of the country:

1 - Would there be any penalty for leaving the country and letting the 90 day visa expire without first converting it to a full one year visa?

2 - Would you be able to return on a new 30 day exempt visa on arrival, convert it to a new 90 day Type O visa, and start the whole process again after the 90 day visa expires?

1/2 Immigration could refuse another one. It would depend upon the office you go to. With a good excuse they might do it. The visas are only  meant to be used to apply for an extension not to extend your stay in the country.

 

12 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

Thank you. What made me think there is an 18 month requirement is that it says so on the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs website for getting a Non-Immigrant “O-A” (Long Stay) visa on the basis of retirement. I realized you are saying that this only applies getting a multiple entry visa at an embassy or consulate, but on the MFA website is doesn't say that. It simply states having a passport with validity of not less than 18 months as one of the requirements. You may see here:

A OA visa is a multiple entry visa so it is the same for it.

What you get at immigration is not a OA visa. Only an embassy or official consulate can issue them.

[JimMorris]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

1/2 Immigration could refuse another one. It would depend upon the office you go to. With a good excuse they might do it. The visas are only  meant to be used to apply for an extension not to extend your stay in the country.

 

So if you had a 90 day Type O visa, left the country before the 90 days, and before converting it to a full one year visa, and then let the 90 day visa expire, then immigration might prevent you from applying for a new Type O 90 day visa when you reenter Thailand because you had left and didn't extend the previous 90 day visa to a full one year visa before it expired, correct?

 

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

A OA visa is a multiple entry visa so it is the same for it.

What you get at immigration is not a OA visa. Only an embassy or official consulate can issue them.

 

If you look more closely at that link I provided for the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs website, under "Channels to submit application" it lists Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located on Government Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210. If you take this into consideration, then it is saying you also need 18 months remaining on your passport expiry date when applying for a Type O visa from the immigration bureau in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

So if you had a 90 day Type O visa, left the country before the 90 days, and before converting it to a full one year visa, and then let the 90 day visa expire, then immigration might prevent you from applying for a new Type O 90 day visa when you reenter Thailand because you had left and didn't extend the previous 90 day visa to a full one year visa before it expired, correct?

 

Yes they could.

 

11 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

If you look more closely at that link I provided for the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs website, under "Channels to submit application" it lists Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located on Government Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210. If you take this into consideration, then it is saying you also need 18 months remaining on your passport expiry date when applying for a Type O visa from the immigration bureau in Thailand.

I have read that many times over the years. If is incorrect info. You cannot apply for a OA visa at immigration anywhere.

[JimMorris]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

I have read that many times over the years. If is incorrect info. You cannot apply for a OA visa at immigration anywhere.

OK, so you are saying forget about the 18 month expiry requirement and that you can enter Thailand with the 30 day exempt visa on arrival, covert it to a 90 day type O visa in Thailand, and then extend it to a 1 year Type O retirement visa, as long as you still have 1 year left on the passport expiry date when you apply for the 1 year extension, correct?

 

I think though that the general rule is if you have less than 6 months left in your passport before expiry that they wouldn't allow you to extend a visa at all. Passports with less than 6 months left before expiry generally aren't usable for travel or visa applications in most countries, including Thailand I believe. 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

OK, so you are saying forget about the 18 month expiry requirement and that you can enter Thailand with the 30 day exempt visa on arrival, covert it to a 90 day type O visa in Thailand, and then extend it to a 1 year Type O retirement visa, as long as you still have 1 year left on the passport expiry date when you apply for the 1 year extension, correct?

Yes you could.

2 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

I think though that the general rule is if you have less than 6 months left in your passport before expiry that they wouldn't allow you to extend a visa at all. Passports with less than 6 months left before expiry generally aren't usable for travel or visa applications in most countries, including Thailand I believe. 

There is no 6 month requirement for anything you do at immigration. The only problem is that an extension would not be granted for any longer than the passport's validity.

The only 6 month requirement is at embassies and consulates to issue a single entry visa.

For those from some countries there is no 6 month requirement to enter the country. They only need one valid for their length of stay.

[JimMorris]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes you could.

There is no 6 month requirement for anything you do at immigration. The only problem is that an extension would not be granted for any longer than the passport's validity.

The only 6 month requirement is at embassies and consulates to issue a single entry visa.

For those from some countries there is no 6 month requirement to enter the country. They only need one valid for their length of stay.

Understood. Thank you. All clear.

[JimMorris]

I was just wondering if you show the 800,000 Baht in the bank when you get your 90 day extension, are you still expected to show the full 800,000 Baht again 60-90 days later when you convert the visa from the 90 day visa to the full one year retirement visa?

 

Assuming you are supposed to be using this money to live on for expenses while you are in Thailand, I would expect it would be acceptable if your balance had dropped by 65,000 Baht a month between the time you got the 90 day extension and the date when you convert it to the full one year?

[ubonjoe]

7 hours ago, JimMorris said:

I was just wondering if you show the 800,000 Baht in the bank when you get your 90 day extension, are you still expected to show the full 800,000 Baht again 60-90 days later when you convert the visa from the 90 day visa to the full one year retirement visa?

You do not get a 90 day extension when you apply for a non immigrant visa. You get a new 90 day entry.

You  have to have the 800k baht in the bank for 60 days when you apply for the extension of stay based upon retirement (it is not a visa). Also a new letter from the bank and copies of your updated bank book. 
 

7 hours ago, JimMorris said:

Assuming you are supposed to be using this money to live on for expenses while you are in Thailand, I would expect it would be acceptable if your balance had dropped by 65,000 Baht a month between the time you got the 90 day extension and the date when you convert it to the full one year?

You still have to have the 800k baht for 60 days when you apply for the extension.

[BritTim]

7 hours ago, JimMorris said:

I was just wondering if you show the 800,000 Baht in the bank when you get your 90 day extension, are you still expected to show the full 800,000 Baht again 60-90 days later when you convert the visa from the 90 day visa to the full one year retirement visa?

The conversion is a special case. You are only required to show you have the money in the bank on the day you apply, but must show it came from abroad. For extensions every year (the first included) you need the money to have been in the account for a seasoning period before applying for the extension. For the first extension, it only needs to be seasoned for 2 months. For subsequent years, the money must have been in the account for 3 months.

 

Since money must have been in the account for 2 months anyway when applying for the extension (regardless of how you received your non immigrant entry) there is no case for saying you should be allowed to spend some of the money before applying for the extension.

[JimMorris]

Thank you both for your replies on this. Two quick questions:

 

1 - When you go to the Immigration office to apply for the 90 day visa, after entering Thailand on a 30 day exempt visa, I believe the form that needs to be submitted to Immigration is the TM.87?

 

2 - Is a medical certificate required for a retirement visa either when applying for the initial 90 day non-immigrant visa or later when obtaining the 1 year retirement visa?

 

Thanks

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

1 - When you go to the Immigration office to apply for the 90 day visa, after entering Thailand on a 30 day exempt visa, I believe the form that needs to be submitted to Immigration is the TM.87?

Correct

3 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

2 - Is a medical certificate required for a retirement visa either when applying for the initial 90 day non-immigrant visa or later when obtaining the 1 year retirement visa?

There is no requirement for a medical certificate for the visa application or the extension of stay (it is not a visa) application.

[JackThompson]

@JimMorrisJust one thing I would add to this discussion - all the info written by UJ and BritTim is correct, but local immigration offices are allowed to make up their own rules on top of the "official" rules (as I found out).  If doing the conversion at Chang Wattana in Bangkok, it should go as described, above.  Elsewhere, it can vary.

 

Just a heads-up, and I advise applying for the Conversion as soon as possible, so as to have plenty of time to handle any surprises.  The application must be accepted while you still have 15 days left on your current permit-of-stay (but 21 days in-advance is reported required in Chang Mai - as one example of arbitrary rule-variations you may encounter).

[phuketjock]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:00 PM, Paul9989 said:

On the 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank financial requirement for a one year retirement visa, I wonder if they would accept the equivalent in a foreign currency in a Thai bank in a foreign currency account?

I have been using an FCD account in GBP for my retirement extension at Phuket office for the last 9 years no problem.

[phuketjock]

On 12/9/2017 at 12:35 AM, JimMorris said:

I was just wondering if you show the 800,000 Baht in the bank when you get your 90 day extension, are you still expected to show the full 800,000 Baht again 60-90 days later when you convert the visa from the 90 day visa to the full one year retirement visa?

 

Assuming you are supposed to be using this money to live on for expenses while you are in Thailand, I would expect it would be acceptable if your balance had dropped by 65,000 Baht a month between the time you got the 90 day extension and the date when you convert it to the full one year?

Jim you don't appear to have a grasp of either the procedures or the terminology.

Uj has given you all the relevant info you will need but you seem to be adopting your own

interpretation of things.

After your initial 30 day entry you will apply for a non 'O' 90 day visa, not a 90 day extension.

then during that 90 days you can apply for an extension of your permission to stay on the

grounds of retirement, more commonly referred to as a retirement extension, it is NOT a visa,

there is no such thing as a retirement visa and visas cannot be extended. 

Once you have obtained your initial retirement extension you can re-new you extension year

after year using the same procedure as you did for your first one, it really is that simple.

[tgeezer]

I stopped in japan for a visit, then continued on. One way ticket. They were not going to let me on . They had me sign a release document saying they weren't responsible. I waiting on my non o.

The airline is responsible to Immigration not to you, they need a waiver from Immigration that they will not be required to remove you from the country if you are refused entry. Same goes for an 'el cheapo' ticket out on another airline, although in that case provided you can remain airside and wait for it to leave there shouldn't be a problem.


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[JimMorris]

On 12/16/2017 at 4:44 PM, JackThompson said:

@JimMorrisJust one thing I would add to this discussion - all the info written by UJ and BritTim is correct, but local immigration offices are allowed to make up their own rules on top of the "official" rules (as I found out).  If doing the conversion at Chang Wattana in Bangkok, it should go as described, above.  Elsewhere, it can vary.

 

Just a heads-up, and I advise applying for the Conversion as soon as possible, so as to have plenty of time to handle any surprises.  The application must be accepted while you still have 15 days left on your current permit-of-stay (but 21 days in-advance is reported required in Chang Mai - as one example of arbitrary rule-variations you may encounter).

Thank you Jack. Good points and duly noted.

[JimMorris]

On 12/16/2017 at 5:22 PM, phuketjock said:

I have been using an FCD account in GBP for my retirement extension at Phuket office for the last 9 years no problem.

Thanks, that is great to know. A lawyer had also confirmed for me recently that it is acceptable as well. As you didn't mention though, I assume your FCD in GBP is at a Thai bank and not on deposit in another country. I may also use an FCD on deposit at a Thai bank. Hopefully they don't tell me it is not acceptable since it is not written anywhere on the immigration website:

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_80

Edited December 17, 2017 by JimMorris

[phuketjock]

14 hours ago, JimMorris said:

Thanks, that is great to know. A lawyer had also confirmed for me recently that it is acceptable as well. As you didn't mention though, I assume your FCD in GBP is at a Thai bank and not on deposit in another country. I may also use an FCD on deposit at a Thai bank. Hopefully they don't tell me it is not acceptable since it is not written anywhere on the immigration website:

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_80

My account is SCB Phuket branch Jim. 

[JimMorris]

On 10/23/2017 at 3:05 PM, ubonjoe said:

I can say from my own personal experience that immigration has never asked for one. Same for many other people.

You can use a oneway ticket to a nearby country to take of the airlines 30 day requirement. You can find them on low cost carriers for as little as 1000 baht by purchasing it an advance.

 

If you plan to fly to a regional country from Bangkok on Air Asia then you can also print your return boarding pass from one of the Air Asia printing machines outside in front of the entrance doors to the departure area at Don Muang. Then when you plan to fly back, either the same day, or a day or two later, and if you don't have any checked luggage, then you would already have your boarding pass and would not have to talk to any ground staff. This would omit the possibility of being questioned about having an onward ticket from Thailand and alleviate the need to consider buying an extra ticket from Bangkok to somewhere else that you aren't going to use.

 

I think if you fly back from Malaysia on Air Asia you could probably also print your boarding pass from an automated machine there in the airport since Air Asia is a Malaysian airline and I would assume they have those boarding pass printers thee too. Same also probably goes for Singapore with Air Asia.

 

Unfortunately though Air Asia doesn't seem to provide any digital boarding passes that you can just show from your phone. So I think with Air Asia you always have to print them out.

Edited December 19, 2017 by JimMorris

[JimMorris]

On form TM.87, what should one write for the 2 sections "kind of visa" (in regards to the visa you have now and assuming it is a 30 day exempt visa) and "reason (s) for application"?

 

I also don't see anywhere on the form where it asks what type of visa you would like to apply and for how long or a visa you want? Is it that all non-immigrant visas are simply the same type and all valid for a standard 90 days?

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, JimMorris said:

On form TM.87, what should one write for the 2 sections "kind of visa" (in regards to the visa you have now and assuming it is a 30 day exempt visa) and "reason (s) for application"?

I also don't see anywhere on the form where it asks what type of visa you would like to apply and for how long or a visa you want? Is it that all non-immigrant visas are simply the same type and all valid for a standard 90 days?

Type of visa would be none if on a visa exempt entry.

Reason would be to apply for an extension of stay based upon retirement.

The reason for the application determines the category of non immigrant visa they will issue. In this case it would be O when they issue it. 

The length of the entry from a non immigrant visa will always be 90 days.

[JimMorris]

Thank you. I applied for the 90 day visa with the TM.87 form, submitted all the required documents, and paid the 2,000 Baht. They did not give me the 90 day visa though. They only gave me a receipt and told me to return in 15 days to pick up the 90 day visa then. Is this typical?

 

As I understand, after you get the 90 day visa, you have to wait 60 days and then submit form TM.7, together with another letter from the bank showing the money still remains in the account, and then pay another 1,900 Baht to get the 1 year extension. Is it possible to wait until towards the end of the 90 day visa in order to apply for the 1 year extension and in order to maximize the first 90 day period? 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, JimMorris said:

Thank you. I applied for the 90 day visa with the TM.87 form, submitted all the required documents, and paid the 2,000 Baht. They did not give me the 90 day visa though. They only gave me a receipt and told me to return in 15 days to pick up the 90 day visa then. Is this typical?

Yes.  That is normal.  Congratulations for getting this successfully.  Was this in Bangkok?

 

1 hour ago, JimMorris said:

As I understand, after you get the 90 day visa, you have to wait 60 days and then submit form TM.7, together with another letter from the bank showing the money still remains in the account, and then pay another 1,900 Baht to get the 1 year extension. Is it possible to wait until towards the end of the 90 day visa in order to apply for the 1 year extension and in order to maximize the first 90 day period? 

The 90-days permitted-stay from your Non-O "conversion" will start from the date of application.

 

But, an "extension" is always applied to the end of your existing permission-to-stay - in this case, the "permitted-stay until" date from your new Non-O.  Therefore, no reason to wait.  In fact, better to apply early and find out about any issues with time to spare.

[JimMorris]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yes.  That is normal.  Congratulations for getting this successfully.  Was this in Bangkok?

 

The 90-days permitted-stay from your Non-O "conversion" will start from the date of application.

 

But, an "extension" is always applied to the end of your existing permission-to-stay - in this case, the "permitted-stay until" date from your new Non-O.  Therefore, no reason to wait.  In fact, better to apply early and find out about any issues with time to spare.

 

Well, thank you, but I wouldn't congratulate me just yet. I haven't actually gotten it successfully. I will know after another 15 days I guess.

 

Yes, it was in Bangkok. Also, the staffer giving out the queue numbers had mentioned to me if all my paperwork was in order that they might just approve it right away with no need to come back. I wasn't quite sure what that meant at the time, I thought maybe he had meant I wouldn't have to come back after 60 days to show that the money has been in the account for 2 months, but I guess he was referring to not having to come back after 15 days to get the 90 day extension. So that's why I asked if the 15 day hold was normal.

 

I also explained the money had been in the account for around 6 months already, and offered them evidence of that thinking this might also help alleviate the need to come back for the approval, but they didn't seem interested in that information.

So the 90 days starts from the date that I paid the 2,000 Baht and submitted the application? Not from the date of when they approve the 90 days for permitted-stay?

 

In that case, yes, I agree, better to go back as soon as possible to get the additional 12 month extension. And does that mean I am permitted to go back 60 days after that same date of the initial application for the 90-day permitted-stay extension to get the 12 month extension?

 

So if I understand correctly, it is go back 15 days after the application date to get the 90 day extension and then go back again 60 days after the application date of the 90 day extension to get the additional 12 month extension? And so basically they give you a 15 month total stay from the date when you submit the application for the 90-day permitted-stay extension?

 

Thanks for helping to clarify the process.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by JimMorris

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, JimMorris said:

Also, the staffer giving out the queue numbers had mentioned to me if all my paperwork was in order that they might just approve it right away with no need to come back.

Well, the conversion needs sign off at a high level. I have never heard of someone receiving the non O visa, and 90-day entry on the spot. What I have heard of is them giving the one-year extension at the same time you go back for the 90-day non immigrant entry. With seasoned funds, I think that was occasionally done in the past. Perhaps, that is what the staffer was referring to.

[sendintheclowns]

On 12/16/2017 at 3:20 PM, JimMorris said:

Thank you both for your replies on this. Two quick questions:

 

1 - When you go to the Immigration office to apply for the 90 day visa, after entering Thailand on a 30 day exempt visa, I believe the form that needs to be submitted to Immigration is the TM.87?

 

2 - Is a medical certificate required for a retirement visa either when applying for the initial 90 day non-immigrant visa or later when obtaining the 1 year retirement visa?

 

Thanks

Jim, despite all the rules and regulations, please remember one critical fact (mentiond already but worth repeating). The Immigration Officer you deal with every year can ask for just about anything he wishes for, including changing his mind from what he/she told you in the previous year. Examples: on Samui, Immigration wants a medical cert. In Nakohn, Immigration refused a 3 month terms deposit of 800,000 baht on the grounds that one of the months (February) was ''too small''; another IO insisted on an updating of the Embassy's certification of a Canadian couple's marriage certificate (needed to obtain a piggy back visa extension application by the wife). It is not a bad idea to visit the IO you intend to use, and ask if they have a writen list of all the documentation they require. Just saying, after 20 years here.

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, JimMorris said:

Well, thank you, but I wouldn't congratulate me just yet. I haven't actually gotten it successfully. I will know after another 15 days I guess. ... Yes, it was in Bangkok.

I don't recall cases of them taking the docs and then denying.  I think you are set - Bangkok seems to follow the actual laws/rules - unlike some others.

 

16 hours ago, JimMorris said:

So the 90 days starts from the date that I paid the 2,000 Baht and submitted the application? Not from the date of when they approve the 90 days for permitted-stay?

...

does that mean I am permitted to go back 60 days after that same date of the initial application for the 90-day permitted-stay extension to get the 12 month extension?

...

So if I understand correctly, it is go back 15 days after the application date to get the 90 day extension and then go back again 60 days after the application date of the 90 day extension to get the additional 12 month extension? And so basically they give you a 15 month total stay from the date when you submit the application for the 90-day permitted-stay extension?

Yes, I believe that is the case.  It is actually 90-days for the Non-O, then 1-year for the annual-extension.

[JimMorris]

Thank you all for your good feedback. I will keep you updated on what happens after I go back to immigration for the 90 day visa. Hopefully there will be no hick ups.

@sendintheclowns - Thank you, I am also aware that they can change rules at any time, ask for additional documents they don't really need, find illogical problems with the documents you have submitted, etc. What they do sometimes sounds discretionary. In fact, they may at times do it for no other reason than to remind you that they are the gatekeepers. It is I guess the price all foreigners have to pay when living in a foreign country as immigrants on short term visas.

[JimMorris]

I received my 90 day visa with no difficulty at all. Worth noting is that during the 15 day review period that you are not permitted to leave the country. But probably very few people would plan to leave during that period anyway.

 

With regards to the annual renewals (once you have the one year visa) and when you are required to show that the money has been in your account for at least 90 days prior to renewal, what sort of documented evidence do they typically require for this? I assume 3 months of printed bank statements would be enough?

 

Also, how long prior to expiration of your existing 1 year visa do you need to apply for the renewal?

[tgeezer]

I have been offered only the opportunity to open a savings or fixed term account in Thailand. Both come with a book showing transactions and balance. Immigration needs a copy of the front page and page showing balance three months previously and present balance both of which should be more than the qualifying sum. In order to prove that you haven’t forged anything the bank will also give you a letter verifying the balance. Immigration has been known to ask for a ATM receipt on the day if the bank letter is not the same day as application.


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