A century on, UK's Jewish homeland declaration stirs celebration and mourning in Middle East

[dexterm]

50 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I meant, don't be coy. You've slipped in the past, and you'll do so again. All this pseudo-liberal facade isn't very convincing, really. And no, not the BS claim you raised - there wasn't anything said about not criticizing Israel, something which I occasionally engage in on these topics. And out comes the good old "besmirching" as if this was some ace card. It isn't. Not agreeing with your post, style and views is allowed. Pointing out the flaws, pitfalls and whatnot - allowed as well. And there is no obligation addressing anything on your terms or relying on the way you choose to describe things.

 

There are not countries which do not place limitations, caveats and preferences on immigration. That you choose to go for hyperbole is again, your choice - not a necessarily valid point.

 

The only lie is that you do not wish to see Israel destroyed. Doesn't matter how you present this or attempt to cover it. What you wish for is a country that will replace Israel and will not be Israel. Pretty much the same thing. You have no objections to anything aired by the Palestinians which either aims emulates Israeli practices and policy, or anything that points at their inability to either have a democratic regime or be part of one. And as usual, you somehow imply that Israel should be held to a high moral standard, without any consideration of realities involved. Nothing new here.

 

The rest is just the routine use of these topics as a platform for your extreme views and hateful opinions. I don't know that Corbyn is of any significant caliber, but not surprised you see him as such. Birds of a feather and all that. As for your musings on the motivations of World Jewry - just more of the same baseless co-opting often appearing in your posts. That some may subscribe to your creed, yes - that it is a major motivator or even a majority view, doubtful (to put it mildly). But do talk about lies and whine about inaccuracies.

 

What I'm sure is that your grasp of ME affairs is non-existent. Not a whole lot by way of peaceful, functioning and multicultural countries out there. That you wish both Israelis and Palestinians to partake in a dreamed up social experiment, exhibits once more that your focus isn't on reality.

 

>>I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I meant, don't be coy. 
...your mind reading arrogance knows no bounds. Please don't presume to think for me on my behalf.

 

>>Not a whole lot by way of peaceful, functioning and multicultural countries out there. That you wish both Israelis and Palestinians to partake in a dreamed up social experiment, exhibits once more that your focus isn't on reality.
...better remind citizens of USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK and other western democracies about their failed dreamed up "social experiment."

 

It's about time Israel joined the family of civilized nations.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Illegal Jewish settlers chose to build colonies in the West Bank against all international law and their government encouraged them . I dont see why in a two state solution fanatical Jewish colonists should be rewarded for their crimes. The Palestinians have been there all along. It's the European colonists encouraged by Balfour who are the foreign invaders. 

 

I agree with you to some extent. IMO many of these issues..sharing land, resources, Jerusalem.. tend towards the intractable. That's why I think a one state secular democracy solution is inevitable, where everything belongs to all citizens and not one particular race or religion.

 

Yeah, but then you are intentionally missing the point in order to score an imagined one, and push some more vehemence while at it. If the argument is that Israel's immigration practices are morally reprehensible, then this ought to apply for the Palestinians as well. Unless you wish to suggest a moral double standard, which one of them things you go on about when it suits.

 

Mind that my position is that while such practices are not commendable, they are related to existing conditions, and that applying some absolute justice standard would be a sure way of making things even worse.

 

So, if you want to whine about Israel's practices, at least be honest and acknowledge that the Palestinian's future policies will be similar, and apply the same moral yardstick.

 

As for your closing bit of disingenuous nonsense - there is no feasible way getting there. Might be advisable for the Palestinians to incorporate the concept of a democratic system among themselves first, then try out your social experiment.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I meant, don't be coy. 
...your mind reading arrogance knows no bounds. Please don't presume to think for me on my behalf.

 

>>Not a whole lot by way of peaceful, functioning and multicultural countries out there. That you wish both Israelis and Palestinians to partake in a dreamed up social experiment, exhibits once more that your focus isn't on reality.
...better remind citizens of USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK and other western democracies about their failed dreamed up "social experiment."

 

It's about time Israel joined the family of civilized nations.

 

I'm not presuming anything. Basing my comments on many a topics and posts replicating the one above. You do not divert a whole lot from the same stance and ideas.

 

How are USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK or other Western democracies relevant to conditions and reality in the ME generally and to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict specifically? I mean, other than being used as a deflection.

 

Israel, to your chagrin, is neither an outcast nor is considered uncivilized.

[dexterm]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And I suggest that you stop with your BS.

 

Israel may not be the paragon of equality, treatment of minorities, tolerance and civil rights. But it isn't what you try to advertise. There are Israeli Arab politicians, ministers, judges, army and police officers. Arab citizens may vote, and on the whole, do not face much of the danger and hardships minorities tend to encounter in the ME. It's not perfect, but it isn't what you claim.

 

You can shove apartheid on any other sentence, and it still wouldn't be quite that. 

 

That the current Israeli government is a very right-wing oriented one, and that extreme elements within are using political conditions to push forward dangerous policies, is one thing. That many of these efforts do not actually become a reality is another.

 

That you declare security considerations to be but a pretext, is again, nothing more than your insistence on ignoring anything that does not fit your pet agenda. And the assertion that Israel is responsible for host Arab countries treatment of Palestinians is simply absurd.

 

That is straight out of the Hasbara manual...you've used the line before: Israel may not be a perfect democracy but it is getting there, in the hope people forget the rest of the injustices.

Edited November 2, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

Just now, dexterm said:

That is straight out of the Hasbara manual. Israel may not be a prefect democracy but it is getting there, in the hope people forget the rest of the injustices.

 

I'd ask you to stop trolling, but well aware it's futile.

 

Didn't say anything about Israel "getting there", or that even that it's heading toward being a "perfect democracy". That's your own injected spin.

 

That you seem to insist on the bogus concept of democracy being a uniform thing, is just more dishonesty. There are, in fact, differing levels and different applications of democratic systems and values. Some democracies are better than others. There was no claim Israel tops the list or even close to it. Just that it isn't what you go on about.

[dexterm]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not presuming anything. Basing my comments on many a topics and posts replicating the one above. You do not divert a whole lot from the same stance and ideas.

 

How are USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK or other Western democracies relevant to conditions and reality in the ME generally and to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict specifically? I mean, other than being used as a deflection.

 

Israel, to your chagrin, is neither an outcast nor is considered uncivilized.

Not a deflection. You are the one saying people can't live together in a peaceful multicultural secular democracy. You call it " a dreamed up social experiment". I am simply pointing out that is actually how I and most of the civilized world really live. It's about time Israel made some efforts to do the same, and perhaps move a little closer to the ideal posited in the Balfour Declaration, such as respecting the civil rights of the non Jewish population under its control.

Edited November 2, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Not a deflection. You are the one saying people can't live together in a peaceful multicultural secular democracy. You call it " a dreamed up social experiment". I am simply pointing out that is actually how I and most of the civilized world really live. It's about time Israel made some efforts to do the same, and perhaps move a little closer to the ideal posited in the Balfour Declaration, such as respecting the civil rights of the non Jewish population under its control.

 

I never said anything of the sort. You either misunderstood, or more likely, twisted it. The reference wasn't global but regional, and was clearly so. Deflection and nothing but.

 

Kindly address what I posted, instead of your made up version - are there conditions supporting this sort of social experiment in the ME? Anything which can be pointed at as a workable example? Anything to support the feasibility of a "peaceful multicultural secular democracy" considering relations between the sides or the environment in which they exist? Israelis and Palestinians live in the ME, with all that it implies and you ignore. The notion that this reality is anywhere near being possibly altered to your imaginary standards is nonsense.

[sanemax]

59 minutes ago, dexterm said:

For apartheid practised against Palestinian Israeli citizens I suggest you visit https://www.adalah.org/en to note the many Israeli laws that discriminate against its own Palestinian citizens.

 

 

Stop posting incorrect things .

You really have no idea what you are talking about .

The link you provided doesnt show any descrimetory laws 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Stop posting incorrect things .

You really have no idea what you are talking about .

The link you provided doesnt show any descrimetory laws 

https://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

[sanemax]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

https://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

Eh, I just posted that the link doesnt show any discriminatory laws....and you post the link again !!!!!

One of the alleged "discriminatory " laws that the Israeli Police had the right to stop and search someone who they believed was going to carry out a violent attack and that is discriminatory because Palestinians are more likely to carrry out violent attacks then Israelis are 

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, sanemax said:

Eh, I just posted that the link doesnt show any discriminatory laws....and you post the link again !!!!!

One of the alleged "discriminatory " laws that the Israeli Police had the right to stop and search someone who they believed was going to carry out a violent attack and that is discriminatory because Palestinians are more likely to carrry out violent attacks then Israelis are 

Don't blame Dexterm for that. I misread his post and was just trying to be helpful by posting the link again because his seemed to take me to the home page.

[carbine1125]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

The British Govenment should be hanging its head in shame, and apologising for the misery caused and the countless lives lost through the meddling of their predecessors.

 

What right had a European power to give away land it did not own to foreign European Jews while ignoring the rights and wishes of the resident indigenous 91% Palestinian population.

 

Then supporting massive European Jewish migration, helping Jews with the infrastructure to establish a racist Zionist state, training Jewish militias while decimating Palestinian leadership and undermining all their attempts to resist this blatant colonialist project.

 

Palestinians quite rightly rejected the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and Partition in 1947 for the same reasons..why should they agree to a foreign power giving away a majority of their land to a minority of foreign colonists.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Probally should not have stole the land from native Americans either but hey!

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, carbine1125 said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Probally should not have stole the land from native Americans either but hey!

Yes, I wonder how many people who label Israel as "colonisers living on someone elses land" are Americans, Australians Canadians or New Zealanders, who live on other peoples land ?

[Grouse]

Phew!

 

I wish we British had never bothered.

 

Try to do "The Right Thing", look after "The underdog", play fair and what happens? Nobody's happy.

 

I'll tell you this, when we were a super power and had the empire, there would be none of this nonsense.

 

 

[Grouse]

The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.

 

 

All very well, and covered on many a past topic. Still doesn't make Palestine into a country that actually existed or implies that the modern day Palestinians have much to do with it.

[Grouse]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_the_Levant

 

Who's looking after the dinosaurs' land rights?

 

It's clear to me that Balfour was attempting to do the right thing and give the Jewish diaspora a homeland. They had been "a bit of a nuisance" previously.

[dexterm]

51 minutes ago, carbine1125 said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Probally should not have stole the land from native Americans either but hey!

The problem for Zionism is that it left its colonialist project about 100 years too late. Other European nations got away with it but have since come to terms with their crimes and guilt, have apologized to their indigenous population and attempted to make reparations.

 

Whereas Israel is still in a state of denial and is still perpetrating the crimes initiated by the Balfour Declaration.

 

The fly in the ointment for Israel is that where other European colonizers eventually became the majority, despite all the Zionists' cruelest efforts Palestinians still outnumber Jews in historic Palestine, and ultimately they will get equal rights.

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

.

Whereas Israel is still in a state of denial and is still perpetrating the crimes initiated by the Balfour Declaration.

 

What "crimes" are you referring to ?

Or is this just another one of your emotive words that has no connection with reality ?

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The problem for Zionism is that it left its colonialist project about 100 years too late. Other European nations got away with it but have since come to terms with their crimes and guilt, have apologized to their indigenous population and attempted to make reparations.

 

Whereas Israel is still in a state of denial and is still perpetrating the crimes initiated by the Balfour Declaration.

 

The fly in the ointment for Israel is that where other European colonizers eventually became the majority, despite all the Zionists' cruelest efforts Palestinians still outnumber Jews in historic Palestine, and ultimately they will get equal rights.

 

Even if one was to accept your "colonialist" crapola, then it ought to be pointed out (and it was, on past topics) that colonial powers did not, as a general rule, "come to terms", "apologize" or "make reparations" (if they did) until the issues were decided, usually much later on. Basically when it was more of a gesture made from a secure position of strength rather than happening while the conflict was still ongoing.

 

Israel is not "a state in denial" for not adopting your prescription and views. And there is no such unified Israeli point of view as implied. Some Israelis (many on the Israeli right wing, for sure) do tend to ignore certain elements of the conflict and its implications, but your wide brush would make it an all encompassing attitude. Then there's this tiny issue of reality, which tends to baffle even those Israelis who aren't quite what your try to portray.

 

As for the last nonsense bit - make up your mind. Either Israel is incompetent in it's supposed designs toward the Palestinians or it isn't. You're picking alternate arguments as fits each post. Not very convincing.

 

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, sanemax said:

What "crimes" are you referring to ?

Or is this just another one of your emotive words that has no connection with reality ?

Let's just take just one war crime out of the many. The war crime of ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians in 1947/8 and it is still continuing today in the West Bank including Jerusalem.

 

Now Zionist mythologizers will say (because their narrative always has to be perfect..since they can only ever be the victims) that Palestinians all voluntarily fled (as people do in wars); none was ever terrorized into leaving by Jewish terrorists militias.

 

Well, even if you believe that garbage, it is still a war crime according to the  Geneva Convention to which Israel is a signatory to refuse to allow refugees to return to their homes while transferring your own population to occupied territories. Now if that isnt prejudicing the Balfour Declaration's civil rights on its non Jewish communities, I don't know what does. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Let's just take one war crime. The war crime of ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians in 1947/8 and it is still continuing today in the West Bank including Jerusalem.

 

Now Zionist mythologizers will say (because their narrative always has to be perfect..since they can only ever be the victims) that Palestininians all voluntarily fled (as people do in wars); none was ever terrorized into leaving by Jewish terrorists militias.

 

Well, even if you believe that garbage, it is still a war crime according to the  Geneva Convention to which Israel is a signatory to refuse to allow refugees to return to their homes while transferring your own population to occupied territories.

 

Some of the Palestinians were driven away, some fled due to several factors (not all of which have to do with Israel's actions). That you wish to claim all were "ethnically cleansed" is just you pushing a one sided incorrect narrative (while whining about the other side's narrative being "perfect", no less). I don't think that there are serious Israeli accounts which claims all Palestinians ran away voluntarily or that non were terrorized into living. More of your wide brush false claims.

 

You can go on and on about Israel's refusal to let refugees return. You may also ignore the state of things post war, which pretty much made this an impossibility. Of course, reality is not much of a hindrance when it comes to your warped take on things.

 

The illegal settlements are illegal, that part stands. However, this can be addressed without exaggerations and false presentations such as evident in the post above. And, of course, them illegal settlements came much later than the Balfour Deceleration.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Morch

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Let's just take just one war crime out of the many. The war crime of ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians in 1947/8 and it is still continuing today in the West Bank including Jerusalem.

 

Your claims are getting more and more ridiculous 

[Scott]

Post violating Fair Use Policy and off-topic posts removed.  

 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

Your claims are getting more and more ridiculous 

You may want to take up your false assertions with the editor of Israel's oldest newspaper.

 

"While we are still desperately concealing, denying and repressing our major ethnic cleansing of 1948 - over 600,000 refugees, some who fled for fear of the Israel Defense Forces and its predecessors, some who were expelled by force - it turns out that 1948 never ended, that its spirit is still with us."

https://www.haaretz.com/ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians-or-democratic-israel-at-work-1.361196

 

Simply trolling with derogatory denials does not cut the mustard.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Some of the Palestinians were driven away, some fled due to several factors (not all of which have to do with Israel's actions). That you wish to claim all were "ethnically cleansed" is just you pushing a one sided incorrect narrative (while whining about the other side's narrative being "perfect", no less). I don't think that there are serious Israeli accounts which claims all Palestinians ran away voluntarily or that non were terrorized into living. More of your wide brush false claims.

 

You can go on and on about Israel's refusal to let refugees return. You may also ignore the state of things post war, which pretty much made this an impossibility. Of course, reality is not much of a hindrance when it comes to your warped take on things.

 

The illegal settlements are illegal, that part stands. However, this can be addressed without exaggerations and false presentations such as evident in the post above. And, of course, them illegal settlements came much later than the Balfour Deceleration.

You miss the point. Whether you accept or not that Palestinians were forced to flee, that's irrelevant.

 

What is incontrovertible is Israel's war crime (according to the Geneva Convention) in not allowing refugees to return while simultaneously transferring its own Jewish population into occupied territories.

[edthhd]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:16 AM, Orton Rd said:

Time for the Muslims to put their hate aside and accept Israel

If someone came in and stole your home would you choose to accept it? Somehow, I think not.

Edited November 3, 2017 by edthhd
punctuation change

[Morch]

10 hours ago, dexterm said:

You may want to take up your false assertions with the editor of Israel's oldest newspaper.

 

"While we are still desperately concealing, denying and repressing our major ethnic cleansing of 1948 - over 600,000 refugees, some who fled for fear of the Israel Defense Forces and its predecessors, some who were expelled by force - it turns out that 1948 never ended, that its spirit is still with us."

https://www.haaretz.com/ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians-or-democratic-israel-at-work-1.361196

 

Simply trolling with derogatory denials does not cut the mustard.

 

You may want to make it clear that the newspaper in question turned, for quite a while now, to a rather left wing bent, often bordering on the extreme. The column in question is authored by a journalist who is pretty much at the forefront of this trend - his extreme views, like yours, are not scripture - nor are they famed for being factually accurate.

 

 

[edthhd]

20 hours ago, sanemax said:

Its the Jewish homeland .

Jews have been living there constantly for over 2000 years

The Temple of David in Jerusalem , is over 2000 years old .

Anyway , I do think that 3000 years of history is a subject that is too big to discuss on forums

You would need to do a four year university course to fully understand the situation

It is the Jewish "homeland" based on a piece of fiction that the land was promised to the Jewish tribe by God. Don't forget that the Canaanites were living there when the Jews took it from them by force. Until we stop believing the fiction in the old and new testaments and the Quran there is no hope for a peaceful solution.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, dexterm said:

You miss the point. Whether you accept or not that Palestinians were forced to flee, that's irrelevant.

 

What is incontrovertible is Israel's war crime (according to the Geneva Convention) in not allowing refugees to return while simultaneously transferring its own Jewish population into occupied territories.

 

I haven't missed any point, as you do not have one. What you're after is wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel. In your haste to achieve this goal, you often make exaggerated or false claims - as is the case with the post I replied to. That you habitually refuse to acknowledge any such inaccuracies, deliberate or otherwise, is by now something of a trademark.

 

And as posted earlier - your tirades tend to focus on "ideal" or imaginary situations, without taking into account the realities on the ground (other, of course, then when this fits whatever faux "point" pushed). That, and insisting that Israel is ought to be held to higher standards, irrespective of prevailing conditions, are again, trademarks.

 

I don't think there is (or wasn't, at the time) a whole lot by way of precedence to support your nonsense musings. There was no Palestinian (and Arab) acceptance of Israel, and there was no reasonable way (even if the leadership of the fledgling state of Israel was so inclined) of letting the Palestinians back without it leading to more bloodshed and strife. That you ignore these, as they complicate your adopted single minded and simplistic narrative is unsurprising.

 

And, of course, the illegal settlements came much later, rather than "simultaneously" - yet another inaccuracy aimed at misrepresenting things.