Gunman opens fire at Texas church, killing at least 20

[alocacoc]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

A great example of the EXTREMIST pro gun propaganda.

Sad. 

Most likely, the shooter possessed the rifle illegally. Keep in mind that it's If someone is highly motivated, he'll get a weapon

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Meh, you like to chuck around emotive terms like arsenal to make the contrast sound more dramatic and put people in 1 of  2 boxes. 

 

But I agree in practice, you don't need an ARSENAL, unless you're an octopus. 1, max 2, if home defense is the motivation.

 

I'm glad you agree

 

The thing is, I've been invited back to the homes of many perfectly rational Americans and been shown their home arsenal of maybe 6 long guns and a number of pistols! Bizarre!

[JCauto]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Bet the European Jews of the 1920-30's think differently...  The ones in Israel today sure do.

 

 

The European Jews knew damn well they weren't going to be allowed to possess guns and would be inviting expulsion had they attempted it. Nonsense. 

[55Jay]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm glad you agree

 

The thing is, I've been invited back to the homes of many perfectly rational Americans and been shown their home arsenal of maybe 6 long guns and a number of pistols! Bizarre!

Well, I'm relieved and glad that your glad then.

 

I had (still have back in Murica, wrapped up in storage) 2 long guns and 2 pistols.  22 mag rifle was my Dad's when he was a younger man, gifted to me when I was about 13.  Used it for rabbit hunting.  Second, a 12 ga. shotgun, first weapon I ever bought saving money from my newspaper delivery route.  That was for busting bushes ~ dove, quail, occasional pheasant, and rabbits.  If I was into deer hunting, I would probably have 1, possibly 2 more.  Same as I had (still have) multiple sizes and styles of fishing reels and rods for different environments and applications.

 

.45 cal pistol I bought from my step-father in my early 20s because it was a fine specimen (still is).  Then an old, silver .38 Cal G-Man issue was my grandfathers, given to me when he died.

 

That's probably an arsenal to some people. Some people are into it, like coin and stamp collectors.  I wasn't, it just accrued over time.

[Thakkar]

4 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

But I do have balance. Do not threaten me or my family by breaking into my home or you have broken the social contract between us as citizens. I have fear for my life and well being due to the perp's actions? We are reduced to my right to "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness"  and another's individual actions saying they do not care. Better luck next time. Under the laws of the US, you might well be sued by the perp if you only wound him/her. Nope, I do not cede my right as a human allowing another to put my life (or those I care about) in danger.

Having guns in the home may actually be an incentive for that Home to be burgled. I don’t know how many burglaries are prevented every year buy gun owners, but problem with tens of millions of households having guns is that EVERY YEAR (on average) a quarter of a million guns are stolen in household burglaries. Those stolen guns aren't going to be used for good or to protect true patriots from a tyrannical government. (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fshbopc0510.pdf)

[attrayant]

37 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Bet the European Jews of the 1920-30's think differently...  The ones in Israel today sure do.

 

 

 

Do you really think they would have stood a chance if they had each had a handgun?

 

The very thought that armed citizens could defend themselves against a tyrannical government is laughable.  How well did that work for David Koresh?

[Thakkar]

3 hours ago, connda said:

Let's ban all law abiding citizen from having guns; then only criminals will have guns!  And then if criminals massacre people in mass shooting, well, then ban black market weapons and ban criminals too.  That should do it by golly.  And take sharp object away from civilians. No more silverware except for blunt spoons.  And civilian should only be allowed to ride bicycles.  No more motorized vehicles for the masses.  Too dangerous.  And it's time to insert tracking chips in all citizens with capacitor that will immobilized suspected offenders and potential dissents.  We must have safety above all else.  Liberty is too dangerous for the average citizens who all must all be under the watchful eye of our benevolent governments. Conform.  Obey.  Disarm!

The usual refrain from gun advocates is that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. Think about that. What they're saying is that criminals don't respect laws. Let the brilliance of that argument sink in. And by "brilliance", I of course mean "idiocy". 

 

Laws, restrictions and sanctions affect everyone, including criminals. Otherwise, why have any laws at all? The existence of criminals is the very reason for criminal laws.

 

Removing legal guns from American homes will immediately reduce by a quarter million (every year!) the number of guns in the hands of criminals because that's the number of guns stolen in burglaries every year, most of which are never recovered. (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fshbopc0510.pdf)

 

Severely restricting gun ownership will make guns more expensive and harder to obtain, even for criminals.

 

No matter how you slice it, tighter gun laws = fewer guns and fewer guns = fewer gun deaths. So, again, the bottom line question is this: how many thousands of avoidable American deaths (yearly!) is your second amendment right worth?

 

In the absence of gun control, what we have is an ever escalating civilian arms race with no end in sight. Everyone armed to the teeth and living in constant fear is no way to go through life.

[notmyself]

Now is not the time to talk about gun regulation. 

[buick]

6 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Removing legal guns from American homes

what percentage of gun owners do you think will give up their guns if a law is put in place making them illegal ?  and what penalty would you suggest when one is caught with an illegal gun ?

 

they tried mandatory minimums for drug arrests. that didn't seem to stop the consumption at all.  i'm not sure what your experience is in america but i'd say guns are alot like drugs to the people that own them.  they need them, they want them, they don't feel right w/o them. 

 

i appreciate your view and it would be great if it all worked out seamlessly.  but i have a hard time believing it will given my experiences living in america.  gun ownership will be a part of america for a long, long time.  and these senseless killings will continue.  maybe even get worse.

 

 

 

[notmyself]

4 minutes ago, buick said:

i appreciate your view and it would be great if it all worked out seamlessly.  but i have a hard time believing it will given my experiences living in america.  gun ownership will be a part of america for a long, long time.  and these senseless killings will continue.  maybe even get worse.

 

Yup. You have on average, one mass shooting per day but it wouldn't matter if you have four or even ten Sandy Hook's a day. 

[anon537687643]

The 2nd amendment losers answer to mad mayhem is “pray” incapable of facing up to their failure!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[notmyself]

So you see these compilations of 'things' on YT such at top 5 funny dogs or 10 times someone said something funny or best moments or best of someone talking utter garbage.

Texas governor Greg Abbott talks about the issue.....

 

 

[Thakkar]

14 minutes ago, buick said:

33 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Removing legal guns from American homes

what percentage of gun owners do you think will give up their guns if a law is put in place making them illegal ?  and what penalty would you suggest when one is caught with an illegal gun ?

 

they tried mandatory minimums for drug arrests. that didn't seem to stop the consumption at all.  i'm not sure what your experience is in america but i'd say guns are alot like drugs to the people that own them.  they need them, they want them, they don't feel right w/o them. 

 

i appreciate your view and it would be great if it all worked out seamlessly.  but i have a hard time believing it will given my experiences living in america.  gun ownership will be a part of america for a long, long time.  and these senseless killings will continue.  maybe even get worse.

Legal gun owners are by definition law-abiding people. If they had to, by law, turn in their guns, most would. Result: millions of fewer guns for burgers to burgle, so millions of fewer illegal guns in the hands of criminals.

 

Legislators failed to pass sensible (or any) gun control legislation after Sandy Hook at which babies (BABIES!) were indiscriminately shot. So it’s easy to despair, and give up, and I understand where you’re coming from. I too despair at times. The hope is that the many dedicated people fighting for sensible gun control will eventually prevail.

[Thakkar]

Most Americans do want sensible gun controls. Yet it is the tyranny of government (legislators bought and paid for by the NRA) that is preventing it. By gun advocates' argument, they should be justified in using their hoard of arms to overthrow these legislators so that laws could be passed to control the very arms they used to overthrow the previous legislators who were ignoring the popular will.

[William T]

12 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

The problem is the Supreme Courts decision on what the 2nd Amendment means. Like the Dred Scott decision, I hope the decisions allowing unrestricted gun ownership will be changed. For those not familiar with the 2nd Amendment wording, it begins..."A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Perhaps enforcing the Amendment more closely to its intent would help address this issue. For the record, I am an American, a gun owner and have held a Concealed Deadly Weapon License. Firmly support ownership, after a background check and a required training course. Weapons limited for hunting, pistol for home defense. Firmly oppose ownership of assault type weapons, silencers, devices to cause automatic firing.

[notmyself]

3 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Most Americans do want sensible gun controls.

 

It's in the 80% range and maybe into the 90s. Blame the NRA gun lobby but it's not the money being offered that's the problem, it's the willingness to accept the money. 

[tweedledee2]

3 hours ago, dunroaming said:

The vast majority of the Americans I know personally believe there should be stronger gun controls.  

You and I know different people with different views and mine probably outnumber yours 10-1. Some posters on this forum think they are experts and have all the answers to prevent violence in the USA.     The English claim restricted gun ownership laws in their home country reduce violence. Maybe they should also put restrictions on licensed drivers, to prevent future pedestrian deaths by extremists.    The Aussies think their government's gun buy-back program helps prevent crime. I ask this question.    How many criminals turned their guns in?    Until the technology is invented that can instantly diagnose and reveal someone's mental state, emotional unbalance and criminal intent, acts against humanity cannot be prevented or eliminated, in any country, by any law or any restriction.   

[Thakkar]

29 minutes ago, notmyself said:

48 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Most Americans do want sensible gun controls.

 

It's in the 80% range and maybe into the 90s. Blame the NRA gun lobby but it's not the money being offered that's the problem, it's the willingness to accept the money. 

 

There’s more to it than that. The NRA threatens to (and follows through on those threats) run ads against proponents of any gun legislation. Too bad shoe bomb manufacturers done have an effective a lobby group as the NRA. 

 

Only in a bizarre alternate universe can policy be based on things that didn't happen.

 

Based on *one* FAILED attempt at a shoe bomb, everyone at American airports have to take their shoes off. Based on over 3 dozen school shootings since Columbine, gun laws haven't been touched.

[notmyself]

Just now, Thakkar said:

Based on *one* FAILED attempt at a shoe bomb, everyone at American airports have to take their shoes off. 

 

That is global.

[Thakkar]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

I was disturbed in the night with my wife and kids upstairs. I charged downstairs yelling blue murder and two youths cleared off with me running naked down the garden. It must have been horrible for them! ( they were attempting to steal a VHS video recorder) ?

 

Kids these days! No grumption! I can attest to the fact that those whippersnappers are terrified of having to look at naked old geezers. Who needs a gun when I have my gloriously scary wrinkly nakedness.

[Thakkar]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

Absolutely no evidence of any population being able to rise up against its tyrannical government using its own weaponry, unaided by any outside influence, in modern times. But apparently many are willing to trade the lives of children and innocents for this obvious fantasy.

You’re completely forgetting the risk of our towns getting attacked by brain-eating zombies. Our guns may not be effective against tank and attack helicopter owning despots, but they sure as heck can shoot those zombies!

[notmyself]

7 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

Kids these days! No grumption! I can attest to the fact that those whippersnappers are terrified of having to look at naked old geezers. Who needs a gun when I have my gloriously scary wrinkly nakedness.

 

 

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, tweedledee2 said:

You and I know different people with different views and mine probably outnumber yours 10-1. Some posters on this forum think they are experts and have all the answers to prevent violence in the USA.     The English claim restricted gun ownership laws in their home country reduce violence. Maybe they should also put restrictions on licensed drivers, to prevent future pedestrian deaths by extremists.    The Aussies think their government's gun buy-back program helps prevent crime. I ask this question.    How many criminals turned their guns in?    Until the technology is invented that can instantly diagnose and reveal someone's mental state, emotional unbalance and criminal intent, acts against humanity cannot be prevented or eliminated, in any country, by any law or any restriction.   

Why have any laws at all? They’re just a way for the legal-industrial complex to rake in the cash.

[notmyself]

2 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Why have any laws at all?

 It's the old then why not ban hammers, vehicles or some such argument which is stupid to the very core as it actually provides not reason not to. 

[Thakkar]

4 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 It's the old then why not ban hammers, vehicles or some such argument which is stupid to the very core as it actually provides not reason not to. 

Have you SEEN what Thor can do with that hammer of his?!?

dont even get me started on Bond’s decked-out vehicles.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Thakkar

[55Jay]

2 hours ago, notmyself said:

So you see these compilations of 'things' on YT such at top 5 funny dogs or 10 times someone said something funny or best moments or best of someone talking utter garbage.

Texas governor Greg Abbott talks about the issue.....

 

 

OMG, I wanted to punch my computer monitor.

[55Jay]

2 hours ago, tweedledee2 said:

You and I know different people with different views and mine probably outnumber yours 10-1. Some posters on this forum think they are experts and have all the answers to prevent violence in the USA.     The English claim restricted gun ownership laws in their home country reduce violence. Maybe they should also put restrictions on licensed drivers, to prevent future pedestrian deaths by extremists.    The Aussies think their government's gun buy-back program helps prevent crime. I ask this question.    How many criminals turned their guns in?    Until the technology is invented that can instantly diagnose and reveal someone's mental state, emotional unbalance and criminal intent, acts against humanity cannot be prevented or eliminated, in any country, by any law or any restriction.   

You're being intentionally dishonest in your characterization.  English and the Aussies claim their restrictive gun ownership laws have reduced GUN violence.  Specifically mass shootings. 

[Thakkar]

Michael Ian Black (@michaelianblack)

6/11/2017, 10:05 PM

When do we start discussing radical gun owners? And when will mainstream gun owners condemn them?

[55Jay]

4 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

Michael Ian Black (@michaelianblack)

6/11/2017, 10:05 PM

When do we start discussing radical gun owners? And when will mainstream gun owners condemn them?

Neighbors of Texas shooting suspect heard intense gunfire in recent days

November 5, 2017

 

 

Suzanne Cordeiro/AFP/Getty Images

Neighbors of Devin Patrick Kelley, the 26-year-old man suspected of shooting and killing at least 26 people in a Sutherland Springs, Texas, church on Sunday, say over the past few days, they heard bursts of gunfire from the direction of his home.

 

http://theweek.com/speedreads/735531/neighbors-texas-shooting-suspect-say-heard-intense-gunfire-recent-days

 

[AsianAtHeart]

Drug control is long overdue.  Doesn't anyone else notice that other gun-owning countries have a surprising lack of such rampages while medicated America tops the list?  If you take away the guns, other weapons will be found--for it will not come close to touching the root of the problem.  Virtually all of the mass murders are carried out by people on Valium, Diazepam, etc.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AsianAtHeart