Saudi Arabia says Lebanon declares war, deepening crisis

[lannarebirth]

7 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

But, but, but, it's an army.  Wait, no, a militia. Wait, somebody else made me say that.  Oops...now I'm confused.

Been there, done that!   

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Morch said:

 

You go on, and on, and on and then some about Saudi Arabia's meddling. You fail to address Iran's meddling, in any meaningful way. You keep painting Hezbollah as independent of representing Iran's interests. Whether supportive of Iran's meddling or minimizing it in order to highlight Saudi Arabia's, the presentation is contrived.

 

As for the second bit - here's are your own words: "Only a very small portion of Hezbollah's activities can be classified as terrorism It is a militia and it is a massive social welfare organization." Not about to get into your nitpicking games, but the assertion made previously is not unreasonable given the quote.

I go on and on about Saudi meddling because of the curious lack of condemnation of Saudi Arabia by western nation. It's  a country with a far worse human rights record and far worse record of meddling abroad than Iran. I remember I once posted about the massive Saudi Arabia's massive wahabi indoctrination effort on virtually every continent except Australia and one poster actually posited Iran's conversion of a few small tribes in Syria from Sunni to Shia as being somehow a significant counterweight. . And I do not paint Hezbollah as independent of representing Iran's interests. Where have I said that?

 

You love that nitpicking word, Hezbollah is overwhelmingly a social welfare and militia. What percentage of its activities can be describe as terrorist? It's very small. You know how small it is? I decided to go through the first 3 months this year wikipedia pages chronicling all terrorist incidents. The vast majority were by Sunni formations. You know how many terrorist incidents I found credited to Hezbollah? I found more credited to the Circle of Fire Nuclei which set off a bomb in Paris in protest against the IMF. And the was the only bomb they set off. Given this data - do you know what data is - I'd say I'm entirely justified in saying that only a very small portion of Hezbollah's resources are devoted to terrorism.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_January_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_February_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_March_2017

 

 

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

Been there, done that!   

Me too!!!!  Must be contagious.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

As you clearly don't know, making claims about what was said in other posts is clearly a deflection. Your allegations of inaccuracies would require me to go back and dig up posts that are not relevant to this thread.  As you ought to know, the moderators frown on this sort of thing. What you're doing is called a cheap shot. Give it a rest.  And please give it all you've got and try to focus on what's being posted here.

We're all hoping you give it a rest....

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I go on and on about Saudi meddling because of the curious lack of condemnation of Saudi Arabia by western nation. It's  a country with a far worse human rights record and far worse record of meddling abroad than Iran. I remember I once posted about the massive Saudi Arabia's massive wahabi indoctrination effort on virtually every continent except Australia and one poster actually posited Iran's conversion of a few small tribes in Syria from Sunni to Shia as being somehow a significant counterweight. . And I do not paint Hezbollah as independent of representing Iran's interests. Where have I said that?

 

You love that nitpicking word, Hezbollah is overwhelmingly a social welfare and militia. What percentage of its activities can be describe as terrorist? It's very small. You know how small it is? I decided to go through the first 3 months this year wikipedia pages chronicling all terrorist incidents. The vast majority were by Sunni formations. You know how many terrorist incidents I found credited to Hezbollah? I found more credited to the Circle of Fire Nuclei which set off a bomb in Paris in protest against the IMF. And the was the only bomb they set off. Given this data - do you know what data is - I'd say I'm entirely justified in saying that only a very small portion of Hezbollah's resources are devoted to terrorism.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_January_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_February_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_March_2017

 

 

It's hard to say one is better over the other.  Iran is more upfront about it, with direct support to organizations like Hezbollah.  A globally recognized terrorist organization.  SA is more discrete about it.  But neither are good.  To say one is better than the other is a bit ridiculous.

 

Too funny.  A social welfare and militia.  The former does help people, the latter kills them.  Come on man, please stop.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

It's hard to say one is better over the other.  Iran is more upfront about it, with direct support to organizations like Hezbollah.  A globally recognized terrorist organization.  SA is more discrete about it.  But neither are good.  To say one is better than the other is a bit ridiculous.

 

Too funny.  A social welfare and militia.  The former does help people, the latter kills them.  Come on man, please stop.

How massively in error can a comment be? Apparently, very. Hezbollah has a huge social welfare organization benefiting the the Shias of Lebanon. How can you not know this? This is common knowledge.

"Hezbollah's popularity among the Lebanese Shiite population, historically one of the poorest communities in Lebanon, comes partly from the social services it provides... Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.^[1] The American think tank Council on Foreign Relations also said that Hezbollah "is a major provider of social services, operating schools, hospitals, and agricultural services for thousands of Lebanese Shiites."^[2][3]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_social_services}

 

 

 

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I go on and on about Saudi meddling because of the curious lack of condemnation of Saudi Arabia by western nation. It's  a country with a far worse human rights record and far worse record of meddling abroad than Iran. I remember I once posted about the massive Saudi Arabia's massive wahabi indoctrination effort on virtually every continent except Australia and one poster actually posited Iran's conversion of a few small tribes in Syria from Sunni to Shia as being somehow a significant counterweight. . And I do not paint Hezbollah as independent of representing Iran's interests. Where have I said that?

 

You love that nitpicking word, Hezbollah is overwhelmingly a social welfare and militia. What percentage of its activities can be describe as terrorist? It's very small. You know how small it is? I decided to go through the first 3 months this year wikipedia pages chronicling all terrorist incidents. The vast majority were by Sunni formations. You know how many terrorist incidents I found credited to Hezbollah? I found more credited to the Circle of Fire Nuclei which set off a bomb in Paris in protest against the IMF. And the was the only bomb they set off. Given this data - do you know what data is - I'd say I'm entirely justified in saying that only a very small portion of Hezbollah's resources are devoted to terrorism.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_January_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_February_2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_March_2017

 

 

 

You're a regular keyboard fighter for human rights. That truck carrying them medals is on its way as you type. Topic, though, isn't about Human rights, nor about which of the two countries in question have a worse record. And this just in, countries do not always base their international relations on issues of civil rights. Doubt this comes as a shock to anyone.

 

Going on about Hezbollah's role without clearly addressing the Iranian connection is tantamount to painting it as independent. When pitted against mentions of Hariri being Saudi Arabia's creature, it's simply disingenuous.

 

I'm not the one nitpicking or making bogus claims who can't be supported - you are. Trying to turn the tables is all very well, but doesn't address the issues. Nitpicking would be ignoring the comment made about there being differing definitions of "terrorism" used, and acknowledging their political connection.

 

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

As you clearly don't know, making claims about what was said in other posts is clearly a deflection. Your allegations of inaccuracies would require me to go back and dig up posts that are not relevant to this thread.  As you ought to know, the moderators frown on this sort of thing. What you're doing is called a cheap shot. Give it a rest.  And please give it all you've got and try to focus on what's being posted here.

 

No, you give it a rest playing moderator, or whining about things you constantly engage in yourself. As for focusing on the topic  - please do, rather than derail it with yet another contrived petty argument.

 

[craigt3365]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

How massively in error can a comment be? Apparently, very. Hezbollah has a huge social welfare organization benefiting the the Shias of Lebanon. How can you not know this? This is common knowledge.

"Hezbollah's popularity among the Lebanese Shiite population, historically one of the poorest communities in Lebanon, comes partly from the social services it provides... Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.^[1] The American think tank Council on Foreign Relations also said that Hezbollah "is a major provider of social services, operating schools, hospitals, and agricultural services for thousands of Lebanese Shiites."^[2][3]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_social_services}

A social welfare organization with ties to many terrorist organizations.  Including the Taliban.  You've lost it, buddy.  Please stop.

 

The map showing their ties to terrorist organizations was eye opening.  But as you say, they are only doing it to help others via their vast social welfare organization.

 

http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/81?highlight=hezbollah

Quote

In addition to its human toll, Hezbollah’s participation in the Syrian civil war has severely undermined the organization’s popularity and credibility around the Arab world.  Once considered one of the most popular sub-state Arab movements in the region, Hezbollah’s support of the Assad regime has alienated much of the Middle East’s Sunni population. [69] This growing unpopularity is believed to have been a key factor behind the decisions by the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), Arab League, and Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) to designate Hezbollah as a terrorist organization in the spring of 2016.

 

[CGW]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:40 AM, craigt3365 said:

Iran and SA should leave other countries alone.

substitute Iran & SA with USA and the world would be a lot better place! IMO

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, CGW said:

substitute Iran & SA with USA and the world would be a lot better place! IMO

 

 

Topic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Your post.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Morch

[ilostmypassword]

8 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

A social welfare organization with ties to many terrorist organizations.  Including the Taliban.  You've lost it, buddy.  Please stop.

 

The map showing their ties to terrorist organizations was eye opening.  But as you say, they are only doing it to help others via their vast social welfare organization.

 

http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/81?highlight=hezbollah

 

Another lie. And the emoji equivalent of a laugh track.

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, CGW said:

substitute Iran & SA with USA and the world would be a lot better place! IMO

Some would agree with you, many would not.  But this is off topic.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Another lie. And the emoji equivalent of a laugh track.

So Stanford University is lying?  You should like Trump.   Dismiss what doesn't synch with your stories. 

 

Sad, sad, sad.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, craigt3365 said:

So Stanford University is lying?  You should like Trump.   Dismiss what doesn't synch with your stories. 

 

Sad, sad, sad.

Stanford University is saying this:

"The map showing their ties to terrorist organizations was eye opening.  But as you say, they are only doing it to help others via their vast social welfare organization. "

I didn't know that they took such an interest in me.

[Ron19]

An off topic post has been removed.

[khunken]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

We're all hoping you give it a rest....

Are 'we' now. Who the hell are you representing?

 

I give Ilostmy password full marks for taking on the 'Iran-Hezbollah' is as bad or worse than Saudi-US-Israel (axis of evil?) when, all over the Middle East & it's extremities (Afghanistan, Libya, even Pakistan) the latter have a horrendous record.

 

There was no 'understanding' that the Lebanese set-up would finish at the same time as the Syrian war and the country's stability has now been disrupted by an internal Saudi power grabber who has already caused two external spats. The major one is a murderous attempt to bring it's unwilling neighbour (Yemen) to heel. The other is of course the stupid disruption of the GCC with the finger-pointing at Qatar. The latter being triggered by Trump's visit to Saudi.

 

I suspect (& hope) that the Saudi attempt to disrupt Lebanon will be more of the Qatar type than the Yemen stupidity.

 

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, khunken said:

Are 'we' now. Who the hell are you representing?

 

I give Ilostmy password full marks for taking on the 'Iran-Hezbollah' is as bad or worse than Saudi-US-Israel (axis of evil?) when, all over the Middle East & it's extremities (Afghanistan, Libya, even Pakistan) the latter have a horrendous record.

 

There was no 'understanding' that the Lebanese set-up would finish at the same time as the Syrian war and the country's stability has now been disrupted by an internal Saudi power grabber who has already caused two external spats. The major one is a murderous attempt to bring it's unwilling neighbour (Yemen) to heel. The other is of course the stupid disruption of the GCC with the finger-pointing at Qatar. The latter being triggered by Trump's visit to Saudi.

 

I suspect (& hope) that the Saudi attempt to disrupt Lebanon will be more of the Qatar type than the Yemen stupidity.

 

You can't compare 'Iran-Hezbollah' to 'Saudi-US-Israel'.  Unless you are just trying to put in a bash towards the US.  Impossible to compare them.

 

Iran gives money to Hezbollah.  Does the US fund SA? LOL. No....

 

Both are bad and need to leave Lebanon alone.  Along with a variety of other ME countries.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, khunken said:

Are 'we' now. Who the hell are you representing?

 

I give Ilostmy password full marks for taking on the 'Iran-Hezbollah' is as bad or worse than Saudi-US-Israel (axis of evil?) when, all over the Middle East & it's extremities (Afghanistan, Libya, even Pakistan) the latter have a horrendous record.

 

There was no 'understanding' that the Lebanese set-up would finish at the same time as the Syrian war and the country's stability has now been disrupted by an internal Saudi power grabber who has already caused two external spats. The major one is a murderous attempt to bring it's unwilling neighbour (Yemen) to heel. The other is of course the stupid disruption of the GCC with the finger-pointing at Qatar. The latter being triggered by Trump's visit to Saudi.

 

I suspect (& hope) that the Saudi attempt to disrupt Lebanon will be more of the Qatar type than the Yemen stupidity.

 

 

There was nothing said about an "understanding" such as you falsely present. All sides involved were aware that the arrangement reached is temporary, and that things would come to a head. The convergence point of standing issue coming to a head is the end of the Syrian civil war. This is due to many of these issues being related to the situation in Syria and it regional implications.

 

It's obvious that your only focus here would be on Saudi Arabia's actions, but ignore anything relating to Iran's or how actions by either country effect those of the other. 

[khunken]

20 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

You can't compare 'Iran-Hezbollah' to 'Saudi-US-Israel'.  Unless you are just trying to put in a bash towards the US.  Impossible to compare them.

 

Iran gives money to Hezbollah.  Does the US fund SA? LOL. No....

 

Both are bad and need to leave Lebanon alone.  Along with a variety of other ME countries.

That's what I said - there is no comparison as Iran-hezbollah is confined to Lebanon & Syria. The Saudi-US-Israel axis has a woeful disruption (to put it mildly) record all over the ME & further.

The US doesn't fund SA but it is their main weapons provider and supporter. LOL LOL

 

So, again, who is the 'we' you represent?

[craigt3365]

Just now, khunken said:

That's what I said - there is no comparison as Iran-hezbollah is confined to Lebanon & Syria. The Saudi-US-Israel axis has a woeful disruption (to put it mildly) record all over the ME & further.

The US doesn't fund SA but it is their main weapons provider and supporter. LOL LOL

 

So, again, who is the 'we' you represent?

You need to research terrorist events by Hezbollah and Iran globally.  It's hardly confined to Lebanon and Syria.

 

Are you supporting what Iran is doing?  And complaining only about SA?  Really?

 

Where did I type 'we'?  Must be referencing another poster.

[khunken]

8 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

You need to research terrorist events by Hezbollah and Iran globally.  It's hardly confined to Lebanon and Syria.

 

Are you supporting what Iran is doing?  And complaining only about SA?  Really?

 

Where did I type 'we'?  Must be referencing another poster.

I support Iran & Hezbollah because you & Morch continually condemn them, without any semblance of balance. And I will certainly support Iran as the far lesser of two evils compared to Saudi - the source of AQ & IS.

 

You told ILMP that 'we' were hoping that he'd give it a rest. Was it Morch that you included?

Edited November 10, 2017 by khunken

[craigt3365]

3 minutes ago, khunken said:

I support Iran & Hezbollah because you & Morch continually condemn them, without any semblance of balance. And I will certainly support Iran as the far lesser of two evils compared to Saudi - the source of AQ & IS.

 

You told ILMP that 'we' were hoping that he'd give it a rest. Was it Morch that you included?

Slow down.  We're both against SA's involvement in Lebanon.  But Hezbollah is way more active there than SA.  To the detriment of that country.  Hopefully, you can see that.

 

But both are bad and need to leave. 

 

LOL.  How many times have I said that?

[khunken]

31 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There was nothing said about an "understanding" such as you falsely present. All sides involved were aware that the arrangement reached is temporary, and that things would come to a head. The convergence point of standing issue coming to a head is the end of the Syrian civil war. This is due to many of these issues being related to the situation in Syria and it regional implications.

 

It's obvious that your only focus here would be on Saudi Arabia's actions, but ignore anything relating to Iran's or how actions by either country effect those of the other. 

There was quite a lot said about an understanding as you falsely deny - by youself in so many words. Viz:

Post #57

'...the issues were not sorted, but put off. It was rather obvious they would come up again once the Syrian civil war ends.'

Post # 59

'....the status quo of-sorts achieved was destined to be disrupted, one way or another, once the outcome of the civil war was decided.'

Post # 71

'Rather, it was a temporary arrangement, with the unofficial expiry date linked to developments in neighboring Syria'

 

What is obvious is that your thrust in this thread has been Hezbollah, Iran awful; Saudi & co naughty. Bias that you can't even admit & it flashes red here and on other topics too. (yes, I'm biased & admit it)

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, khunken said:

There was quite a lot said about an understanding as you falsely deny - by youself in so many words. Viz:

Post #57

'...the issues were not sorted, but put off. It was rather obvious they would come up again once the Syrian civil war ends.'

Post # 59

'....the status quo of-sorts achieved was destined to be disrupted, one way or another, once the outcome of the civil war was decided.'

Post # 71

'Rather, it was a temporary arrangement, with the unofficial expiry date linked to developments in neighboring Syria'

 

What is obvious is that your thrust in this thread has been Hezbollah, Iran awful; Saudi & co naughty. Bias that you can't even admit & it flashes red here and on other topics too. (yes, I'm biased & admit it)

 

 

Spin it all you like, there was nothing said about an "understanding". There was no claim that there was any sort of  agreement regarding time-frame or anything. My posts were about all parties involved knowing the score, nothing to do with your misinterpretation.

 

And the "thrust" suggested as obvious, may be so for someone with comprehension issues, or an overly entrenched partisan position. That Iran's involvement in Lebanon is of a greater magnitude is a fact. That Saudi Arabia does not have access to anything in country resembling Hezbollah, is a fact. There was nothing said about either Iran being "awful", or Saudi Arabia being "naughty". You're either making things up or confusing my posts with those of others.

[khunken]

32 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Slow down.  We're both against SA's involvement in Lebanon.  But Hezbollah is way more active there than SA.  To the detriment of that country.  Hopefully, you can see that.

 

But both are bad and need to leave. 

 

LOL.  How many times have I said that?

'We'? I've no idea how many times you've included others in your opinion.

 

Yes I do think a rather unstable SA should leave Lebanon alone. No I don't think Hezbollah should leave as it is Lebanese. You're not talking sense.

[khunken]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Spin it all you like, there was nothing said about an "understanding". There was no claim that there was any sort of  agreement regarding time-frame or anything. My posts were about all parties involved knowing the score, nothing to do with your misinterpretation.

 

And the "thrust" suggested as obvious, may be so for someone with comprehension issues, or an overly entrenched partisan position. That Iran's involvement in Lebanon is of a greater magnitude is a fact. That Saudi Arabia does not have access to anything in country resembling Hezbollah, is a fact. There was nothing said about either Iran being "awful", or Saudi Arabia being "naughty". You're either making things up or confusing my posts with those of others.

No I have no comprehension issues - you're at your personal attacks again. The last time I replied in kind, my post was removed - so this time I'll just say Netanyahu must be proud of you.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

You need to research terrorist events by Hezbollah and Iran globally.  It's hardly confined to Lebanon and Syria.

 

Are you supporting what Iran is doing?  And complaining only about SA?  Really?

 

Where did I type 'we'?  Must be referencing another poster.

Actually, it's you who needs to do it. Even on that website you referred to the last reference to a Hezbollah terrorist attack was in 2012. And this is a major part of what they do?

 

According to that websited the last terrorist episode on the part of Hezbollah was alleged to be a 2012 attack on a bus in Bulgaria. Compare that to what Sunni organizations do. And you seriously maintain that a big part of Hezbollah's activities are terroristic?  If so, they are displaying a remarkable incompetence in that field compared to their work in social welfare and military activity. 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You're a regular keyboard fighter for human rights. That truck carrying them medals is on its way as you type. Topic, though, isn't about Human rights, nor about which of the two countries in question have a worse record. And this just in, countries do not always base their international relations on issues of civil rights. Doubt this comes as a shock to anyone.

 

Going on about Hezbollah's role without clearly addressing the Iranian connection is tantamount to painting it as independent. When pitted against mentions of Hariri being Saudi Arabia's creature, it's simply disingenuous.

 

I'm not the one nitpicking or making bogus claims who can't be supported - you are. Trying to turn the tables is all very well, but doesn't address the issues. Nitpicking would be ignoring the comment made about there being differing definitions of "terrorism" used, and acknowledging their political connection.

 

First off please tell us about these differing definitions of terrorism. I suspect that the one you prefer would be Professor Moriartyism. They leave no fingerprints but you just know they're responsible. As I pointed out, there's a distinct paucity of events linked to them.

 

I aver and declare and state that Iran definitely influences Hezbollah. You can't possibly quarrel with that.

 

You asked my why I stressed Saudi Arabia's role in all this and I answered you. To stress one is not to deny the other.

 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

First off please tell us about these differing definitions of terrorism. I suspect that the one you prefer would be Professor Moriartyism. They leave no fingerprints but you just know they're responsible. As I pointed out, there's a distinct paucity of events linked to them.

 

I aver and declare and state that Iran definitely influences Hezbollah. You can't possibly quarrel with that.

 

You asked my why I stressed Saudi Arabia's role in all this and I answered you. To stress one is not to deny the other.

 

 

What you "suspect" has nothing to do with my views, or what I was aiming at. Since this was discussed more than once, doubt that you weren't aware of it, and yet chose to go for the inane comment.

 

Countries have different labels for what they define as "terrorism". This may cover very different things. Many Middle Eastern countries construe "terrorism" as covering quite a bit of political dissent, whether or not involving outright violence. Like your sidekick on this topic, you seem to get confused between my posts and those made by another. May want to revisit previous posts for context, not quite what you're on about.

 

You gave an answer as to why you focus on Saudi Arabia, which I still find irrelevant and contrived. As for stressing one not being denial of the other - that's not an accurate description of your posts. The lack of reference to Iran's role in Lebanon's politics makes anything you post on the issue bizarre. Minimizing Iran's role in this, whereas the reality is anything but, likewise makes your position peculiar, to put it mildly.