Some improvement, but Thailand’s English proficiency remains low: report

[Lizard2010]

It all goes back to the government

They want only Thai teachers to teach English

They want all other English teachers from overseas to go home

The only problem is that the Thai teachers can not speak English

So the students do not learn properly

Many falangs i talk to say this after talking to there step childrens teacher

They come saying to themselves i could not understand them

So how are the students supposed to

The Government needs to make it compulsory to have English classes

Because if it coincidences with a certain within the curricular

They miss out so much

Plus they do not converse with English speaking people outside of school

so all that teaching just goes to waste

We will wait till next years rankings to see if anything changes

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Lizard2010

[Baerboxer]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:05 PM, coulson said:

It's odd that Singapore which is a native English speaking Country has a lower proficiency than some European.

 

Anyway no surprise, the current head of state believes the world should speak Thai and wants Thai nationals to teach English over Native speaking teachers.

 

Some improvements is an overstatement. Education is not the reason, if any, that proficiency is improving. It is due to the tourism industry people are forced to interact in English.

 

And Australia, Canada and India don't even make the Top 10!

[Lizard2010]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And Australia, Canada and India don't even make the Top 10!

I think you will find it is for countries that do not have English as there first speaking language

 

[Baerboxer]

Just now, Lizard2010 said:

I think you will find it is for countries that do not have English as there first speaking language

 

 

I think you'll find that India doesn't have English as it's first language although it is the language of governance and law.

 

But I included it in the joke, as like the other two countries, their strongly accented colloquial versions of English would probably keep them out of the Top 10!

[laocowboy2]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:19 AM, JAG said:

Interesting that Cameroon is 75/80 - given the number of "Native English Speaking" Teachers in Thailand who hail from there!

"French and English are official languages, a heritage of Cameroon's colonial past as a colony of both France and the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1960. Eight out of the ten regions of Cameroon are primarily francophone, representing 83% of the country's population, and two are anglophone, representing 17%".

 

More recently the English speakers have been pushed aside for government jobs etc - which is probably why so many are moving abroad. So the Cameroon score is probably based on the whole country rather than the English speaking regions.

[laocowboy2]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I think you'll find that India doesn't have English as it's first language although it is the language of governance and law.

 

But I included it in the joke, as like the other two countries, their strongly accented colloquial versions of English would probably keep them out of the Top 10!

Not quite. It is one of two languages that can be used in the courts, contracts, legal documents etc. Hindi is the other. The reason for English still being there is due to the language make up of India. While Hindi is commonly used in North India, this is not the case in the South (i.e. thingk roughly Bangalore southwards). Ditto in Eastern India. So after independence, the southern states insisted that English be retained. Add to the mix many regional languages as well! When I ran a company there 10 years ago, my No. 2 spoke Hindi, English, Kannada and a couple more all fluently.

[JAG]

27 minutes ago, laocowboy2 said:

"French and English are official languages, a heritage of Cameroon's colonial past as a colony of both France and the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1960. Eight out of the ten regions of Cameroon are primarily francophone, representing 83% of the country's population, and two are anglophone, representing 17%".

 

More recently the English speakers have been pushed aside for government jobs etc - which is probably why so many are moving abroad. So the Cameroon score is probably based on the whole country rather than the English speaking regions.

I'm sure that you are right.

However, the ones that I met were primarily French-speaking. I could not understand their English at all. I could just understand their French.

They were working as "Native English Speaking Teachers", supplied by an agency to a government school.

Presumably, the agency arrangement benefited certain individuals. The quality of the teaching did not seem to be part of the equation.

As many other posters have commented, that is central to the topic of this thread!

Edited November 13, 2017 by JAG

[hugh2121]

On 11/11/2017 at 3:55 PM, PAIBKK said:

You must have been using a Thai calculator...  2017 it is 27 from last.

 

But I still wonder how much Thailand has paid to get better results...

 

Yes, I know. Fat finger problem and I didn't check what I'd written.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

4 hours ago, JAG said:

Or try to change reality?

After all, there are only some 1.5 billion (estimated) English speakers, just drop them a line and tell them to start again!

Sent from my KENNY using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Told you that people would bring some excuses. That is a common stated and valid excuse, but it is only valid as it entails forcing the 1.5 billion speakers to change their way. Who said that this should be so? I understand that political systems tend to make that happen, though. It is an error. Wise people (unlike some leaders we have) would seek a clever solution to circumvent the problem. One ofthe possible solutions is starting the change in schools, starting at the grade 1 level. It would take 12 years to occur, giving plenty of time to all parties involved to get their act together, which, using computers and smart phones, is more possible than 20 years ago. Paradigms do shift. However, I know people will bring up another excuse, the one that deals with all of the different dialectal accents. If only they could be smarter and find solutions. One of the possible solutions is actually to analyze the ten most important national accents (standardization needs to happen at the national level and it has been happening for decades now with TV) and create a new lingua franca accent. Look at the diaphonemic column to the left in the vowel section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects. That way, most speakers' children will retain some parts of their dialectal accent. Children will not care which is which. It is worth noting that most consonants are pronounced in the same manner across all dialects (for the most part), the "r" being one major difference and, unless you are a bona fide linguist, most of the vowel differences are minute. Most speakers can understand the standard accent of speakers of other Commonwealth countries. I said STANDARD accents. And, sure, there are a few exceptions, which I am sure some will point out. Does ONE single anecdote invalidate a general idea? We need to look at the first, not the odd leaf on one of the trees. Smart people do that. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

17 hours ago, Jonah Tenner said:

In Norway, and I believe this goes for all of Europe, we only use teachers of our own nationality to teach foreign languages, like English, French or German. The presumption being that a teacher has to be able to communicate with his/her pupils in their own language to be able to teach them anything. When I, as a boy, had to keep up with my Norwegian schooling by learning German at the Goethe Institute in KL, my teacher was a very strict Malaysian lady, her English was flawless.

Only in Thailand have I seen this preoccupation with having Native English speakers teaching English to the locals.

Leaves me wondering why this should be a viable solution here and not elsewhere.

Norwegian is a Germanic language like English. The differences of pronunciation between English and Thai are huge compared to Norwegian. The script/alphabet is very similar too. The irregular spelling system makes it really hard for any Thai to learn the proper pronunciation of words. "Learn"? "ea" like "bear, mean, ... Sure there are patterns: earn, yearn, learn,... but there are MANY patterns and many exceptions.

Edited November 13, 2017 by EnlightenedAtheist

[EricTh]

English proficiency ranking in mostly N and S East Asian countries

 

1. Singapore

2. Malaysia - 13

3. Philippines - 15

4. India - 27

5. Hong Kong - 29

6. South Korea - 30

7. Vietnam - 34

8. China - 36

9. Japan - 37

10. Indonesia - 39

11. Thailand - 53

12. Cambodia - ?

13. Laos - ?

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by EricTh

[EricTh]

4 hours ago, Lizard2010 said:

It all goes back to the government

They want only Thai teachers to teach English

 

 

That's not true. On the contrary, most schools only want native English caucasian speakers or non-native caucasian faces to teach English.

 

There are no lack of Europeans, American and Australian teachers who want to teach English so the schools have plenty of native English speakers to choose from.

 

I have an Asian friend who tried to apply and they asked 'do you look like a farang'?

 

Yes, I know there are Filipino English teachers but they are the minority rather than the majority. 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by EricTh

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed as well as a reply. 

 

And now, replies to removed posts have been removed. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by metisdead

[lvr181]

32 minutes ago, metisdead said:

An off topic post has been removed as well as a reply. 

 

And now, replies to removed posts have been removed. 

Yee hah!! 

[bangrak]

What 'improvement' for Pete's sake? 56th out of 72 in 2016, 53rd out of 80 in 2017 (...still two months to go, what stats are these?)? Eight new 'contenders' and you score three places 'higher', wow, nearly winning the race then, is it, for the 'Thai pride'? What a bunch! ...Not only Thais teaching English, but also many of the foreigners allowed to do it (I've known a few, couldn't even speak their mother-tongue half decently, which was NOT English, about 'freezing point' in English, but found OK, by people below the level of a fresh Issan bar-girl to-be after one week of 'training'...), are all plain RUBBISH! ...In the Kingdom of the blind, one-eye is King...

[bangrak]

What about this one? What about the scam promoted by private Thai companies, created just for the sake of it, selling(!) 'teachers' (and 'students')' visa to aliens? Most of 'related to' immigration police officials, and more often 'promoted' by such officers locally 'on the field'...? Hmm? Not included in the fresh 'crackdown' on overstayers, will it, ...as they got their (renewable) 1 year, though totally undeserved! Also a 'gateway' for many resorts/hotels to get Farang staff without working permit, isn't it? Sorry for the, many, persons I know who are playing this game. Also for schools, official or private, making use of this hungry flock (giving awfull English teaching, by the way), same ultra-low wages, no work permit either, no social security, out of the stats! How many hundred of thousand of these 'shallow swimmers' would there be in Thailand...?

[EnlightenedAtheist]

39 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

Yee hah!! 

Hard to believe that one would applaud the removal of his own thread and posts!  Give him a trophy! 

[HooHaa]

On 11/11/2017 at 2:01 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Malaysia was the only one on that list colonised by the British. Cambodia was a French colony. I wonder how they do in French speakers.

Sometimes English speakers forget that it isn't just about them.

Err, you are aware the topic is discussing an ENGLISH PROFICIENCY INDEX right?

[inxuinxu]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:56 AM, sqwakvfr said:

Several months ago I spoke to an English Teacher in CNX.  She was Filipina(never lived in an English Speaking Country) and said most of her students(elementary school) just repeat the English words she says.  As soon the students leave her class they pretty much forget everything.  

English is an official language of the Philippines and the higher education language.  

Top five countries have very similar language to English (grammar and vocabulary). 

Singapore and Finland are the real winners because they are speaking Asiatic languages.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

12 hours ago, inxuinxu said:

English is an official language of the Philippines and the higher education language.  

Top five countries have very similar language to English (grammar and vocabulary). 

Singapore and Finland are the real winners because they are speaking Asiatic languages.

I agree with the top 2 statements, but I am perplexed by the last one. As stated before, statement #2 needs to be stated like this: 8 of the top 10 countries have very similar languages to English (alphabet, grammar, vocabulary and even phonology). In fact, looking at the top 15,  Malaysia ("English is the common language, and is the language of business, government, and the medium of instruction in schools." ) and Philippines have both English as active 2nd languages. Belgium has 1/2 of its population speaking a Germanic language and Dutch is a language that is learned as a second language at a very early age too by the other half of the population. The 1 country that stands out is Poland, which has not any "advantage". We might want to look there to see why they do so well.  To say that Finnish is an Asian language is stretching the truth quite a bit. Asian languages are usually logographic or have very different alphabetic systems than English.  This is not the case of Finnish. One of the main reasons that Finnish speakers do so well with English is because it takes very little time to learn to read/decode and write Finnish. Its spelling system is very regular. English as a 2nd language is compulsory at age 11. While it could be argued that its educational system uses modern teaching methodologies and that teachers are very well trained there, this is also so for a lot of countries below Finland in the ranking. It could be argued that Italian speakers should do better since their spelling system is highly phonemic too, but if one asks why, it will show that there is the same preoccupation to crack the grammar (the written code, in general) and not the speaking code (but there are many reasons). English is really 2 languages. It must be learned as 2 different languages since the written code is quite a bit different than its speaking code. If one mispeaks 1/2 of words in a sentence, which will happen, (add grammar errors), one will be very difficult to understand. In many ways, if one "miswrites", one will be easier to understand simply because the reader has more time to decode. The English spelling is highly flawed and inefficient, but who cares! Go fetch the water, damn it!

 

Incidentally, there are things that could be done better in Thailand. For instance, in Vietnam, movies are shown in the original English language with subtitles. I don't believe dubbing is done. 

 

I think that the real issue is around the ability of a culture to evolve and to have its systems evolve as well. In an environment where no one can lose-face (be criticized, be hurt), how can one challenge the status quo? If one MUST pay respect to the elderly, to the hierarchy as a source of constant wisdom and guidance, then, people with outside-of-the-box ideas have no chance. Change is difficult. As stated before, this is also a problem of some Western cultures as it relates to improving certain aspects of their culture that have been set as cultural icons. The metanarrative is passed on and must be adhered to, even if it is passé. For instance, very few English-speakers are interested or willing to make things easier for the next generation and the rest of the world (as it turns out). They are not very likely to adopt a new habit as well. How many foreigners use the toilet spray gun? It is far more logical and efficient than paper? Changing habits is hard. But, when there are solutions given to save 1.5 billion speakers the drudgery of learning a highly flawed spelling system that has been proven to delay and impede learning and no one blinks, it shows that humans are far from being as wise as they claim to be. Sorry! It is your turn to go fetch the water in the croc-infested river this week! Sorry! I had to do it! John could say the same, but he fed the croc! Sorry! Al who is speaking of digging canals is nuts. How many climate deniers are there? However, all cultures seem to have old dinosaurs running the show. Many seem to think that they are indispensable. That is another major problem. 

 

PS: Whoever is the idiot who put the picture of school children in the article should be fired. The test's median age is 26. It is a test that one can take online. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by EnlightenedAtheist

[BugJackBaron]

Some thoughts : Malaysia used to use English as the second language to teach subjects like math , etc in public schools but apparently don't do so any longer.

In my experience with exchange students and average people from Malaysia , they are often excellent speakers of English - particularly those of Chinese descent -  but a large  portion speak worse English than Thais. Even Thais who don't speak English often  know "baby words" like "Hey, you, come ,eat.. go home" .(think schoolboy French). Uneducated Malaysians often don't have even this.  A recent exchange of students from Malaysia at my school was painful to watch. The Thais could not communicate with them. They had no Thai or usable English and the Thais had limited English.

  My point is that we should be careful in the interpretation of such surveys and how they were done.

[lokomotive]

Cameroon is a bilingual country with over 70% of the population speaking French and do not really care about learning English. The two regions speaking English, currently want to secede because the French majority and ruling class has been trying for decades to assimilate the English Speaking by sending more French teachers to the English speaking regions. They should conduct this survey in the English Speaking regions alone and you will get a completely different outcome.

[EricTh]

4 hours ago, BugJackBaron said:

 

In my experience with exchange students and average people from Malaysia , they are often excellent speakers of English - particularly those of Chinese descent -  but a large  portion speak worse English than Thais.

 

Malaysia's high score is due to the ethnic Chinese who speak much better English than the ethnic Malays. The average ethnic Malay can't string a proper English sentence.

 

The same goes to Singapore but Singapore has a higher ethnic Chinese population.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by EricTh

[notmyself]

Great post... nice to read.

 

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:24 AM, EnlightenedAtheist said:

The 1 country that stands out is Poland, which has not any "advantage". We might want to look there to see why they do so well.

 

Spent a lot of time there (I'm British) during the 80s and early 90s with much of it under Soviet rule. Command of the English language was seen as freedom because it allowed them to hear/understand something they would otherwise not be able to. It was just doubleplusgood otherwise. But why English and not say, German? They have historically disliked Germany going back way before WWII and every single person knows/ remembers/ believes that the UK went to war with Germany after they invaded Poland. Maybe something to do with that.

 

Thread has gotten a bit cold so I'll chance my arm and go a little off topic...

 

The poll is too close in my opinion... an opinion based on personal experience only. The Dutch wipe the floor with anyone regarding the English language because they can voice whatever they wish to say in an artful manner. 

 

 

 

[lmaxv]

In the long run, it would be better if Thais taught English language; however, after they have become somewhat proficient in the language and in ESL teaching skills.  The latter they should acquire through teacher training from skilled native English-speaking teachers with degrees in Education, not from people with just any degree who want a quick job to stay in Thailand for a while.  I'm sure I'm not the only retired person with Education degrees living in this country, but there is no interest in our expertise that I have seen.  There is so much more to say on the subject, but this will suffice for now.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

8 hours ago, lmaxv said:

In the long run, it would be better if Thais taught English language; however, after they have become somewhat proficient in the language and in ESL teaching skills.  The latter they should acquire through teacher training from skilled native English-speaking teachers with degrees in Education, not from people with just any degree who want a quick job to stay in Thailand for a while.  I'm sure I'm not the only retired person with Education degrees living in this country, but there is no interest in our expertise that I have seen.  There is so much more to say on the subject, but this will suffice for now.

There is a general perspection out there that if you can speak the language, you can teach it! How many comments are made by non-educators on this website. Of course, after 50, you know it all! LOL

 

And, then, you get some whose heads explode when they are called to teach at the university level with an undergraduate degree! They call themselves "professors". What a travesti! Of course, the top people in the ministry of education and even principals are mostly incompetent. Someone just related to me this story about a principal's conference for principals of private English schools. Most --if not all of them-- could not communicate effectively in English. If they cannot, how do they hire competent teachers. If they are allowed to fester in the system, I cringe knowing what they know (or don't) about pedagogy --and language teaching, in general. 

[jenny2017]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:19 PM, JAG said:

Interesting that Cameroon is 75/80 - given the number of "Native English Speaking" Teachers in Thailand who hail from there!

Ho Ho Ho!! And I was wondering where the "native English Speakers" from Philippines were? 

 

( In the PI)  But perhaps the greatest decline is in the ability to speak English. Only 32 percent of respondents in the March 2006 survey said they could speak in English compared to 56 percent in 1993 and 54 percent in 2000.

 

Some interesting facts:

 

   http://www.philstar.com/headlines/332133/poll-pinoy-proficiency-english-declining

 

      

Edited November 17, 2017 by jenny2017

[jenny2017]

On 11/11/2017 at 6:52 PM, 0815 said:

 

The little kids at a laotian school speak a better English then Thai ...

Perhaps also better than you?

[jenny2017]

Here's something truly interesting from Wikipedia: 

 

    The EF English Proficiency Index (EF EPI) attempts to rank countries by the average level of English language skills amongst those adults who took the EF test. The index is based on data from a survey, not on a representative sampling model. It is "not a statistically controlled study", as The Economist states;^[1] "the subjects took a free test online and of their own accord. They were by definition connected to the internet and interested in testing their English; they will also be younger and more urban than the population at large."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index

 

[metisdead]

Grammar police posts and replies have been removed.