Green light for Bt37-bn wind farm projects

By The Nation

 

 

Wind Energy Holding (WEH), a member of the KPN Group and one Southeast Asia’s leading renewable energy companies, today announced that it has successfully closed financing for five of the company’s onshore wind farms totalling 450 megawatts.

 

The investment for all five projects will total Bt37 billion. When complete, by the first quarter of 2019, the five wind farms will add to WEH’s existing 270MW of operating capacity.

 

WEH said that all of the financing was fully arranged and wrapped by Siam Commercial Bank (SCB). Financial close for the five projects comes on the heels of the commissioning of the Company’s 60MW Watabak project in December 2016, which was also financed by SCB.

 

The wind farms, located in Northeast Thailand’s Nakhon Ratchasima and Chaiyaphum provinces, will be supplied by both Vestas and General Electric (GE). Vestas, will supply 60 of their V136-3.0 MW turbines which will be the first of their kind in the Asia Pacific region.

 

With a hub height of 157 metres, they will also host the tallest towers in the region to date. GE will supply 90 of their GE3.43-137 turbines with an innovative steel-concrete hybrid tower. GE Power will also construct six new substations as part of the grid infrastructure being built for the projects, WEH said.

 

The projects have started construction and are expected to achieve commercial operations over the course of the second quarter of 2018 to the first quarter of 2019. Upon completion, WEH will have developed and constructed 720 MW of onshore windfarm capacity in Thailand, making it the single largest wind power developer and operator in the country and Southeast Asia.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/breakingnews/30332771

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2017-11-29

How much will go to the salvage of the boat and the windmill in the river

Does Thailand have enough of the "right kind of wind" for these projects? Obviously(?) someone has done the relevant homework but I'm still not convinced.

 

In my (limited) experience it's either not blowing at all, or it's blowing like nobodies business (and hammering down too).

 

There are some baby turbines near Rangsit station, I've never seen them rotating.

 

We do get rather a lot of sunshine, solar would make more sense would it not?

 

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Does Thailand have enough of the "right kind of wind" for these projects? Obviously(?) someone has done the relevant homework but I'm still not convinced.

 

In my (limited) experience it's either not blowing at all, or it's blowing like nobodies business (and hammering down too).

 

There are some baby turbines near Rangsit station, I've never seen them rotating.

 

We do get rather a lot of sunshine, solar would make more sense would it not?

 

wind does produce more electric power than solar and takes up less space.

There is one thing that is absolutely certain with privately owned wind farms and that is that the price of electricity will rise. 

Glad it isn't my money riding on those projects.

As above does Thailand really get enough wind to drive these ?? I'm surprised about this but I'm assuming they have done there homework but hey it's Thailand , I'm not convinced to be honest ! 

6 hours ago, webfact said:

V136-3.0 MW turbines

Looking at a wind map of Thailand

http://www.vortexfdc.com/assets/docs/vortex_3km_thailand_wind_map_resource.pdf

and the Vestas 136-3MW power curve https://www.google.co.th/search?q=vestas+wind+turbine+136-3mw+power+curve&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=nQs6d4e5eQZYwM%3A%2CL0UKO2El4pOnyM%2C_&usg=__o6_ZSN7oRl5uXBNGsGJBtJ8Abcg%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb_eqStuPXAhUYR48KHeMsCnMQ9QEINTAC#imgrc=nQs6d4e5eQZYwM:

 

something doesn't look right

• It seems to be rated 3MW at 14m/s which doesn't exist anywhere in the wind map.
• In the east and north areas ranging from about 4-6m/s maximum the output would be less than 0.5MW.

Output is also determined from "wind rose data" which is the frequency of occurrence of various wind speeds at a particular site. The wind speeds are not constant and does not come from only a single direction. For example a 10m/s wind might only occur 20% of the year while winds 0-4m/s might occur 80% of the year. I hope wind rose data for several years was collected to perform a valid statistical analysis.

Some other factors (there are several more for brain freeze) are elevation above sea level and temperature that affect wind density. The more dense the wind the greater pressure against the turbine blades.

 

Excellent. Very proactive and embracing of science. Very environmentally-conscious. Wonderful.

 

And the reward? The boat owner unloaded them in the river.

 

Another Thai triumph.

 

     + 

Wind source = Parliament.                                             Wind farm = electrical energy.

Working together.                                      Just like fish and chips and bread and jam.

 

5 hours ago, gamini said:

wind does produce more electric power than solar and takes up less space.

When there's no wind?

Don't thesefolks know that where ever these wind farms are installed that they play havoc on the AVIAN species????????????????????

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

When there's no wind?

There is water.....

 

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/barge-carrying-wind-turbines-worth-millions-sinks-in-chao-phraya-river.html

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

When there's no wind?

There are always an abundance of hot air from the 2 Ps and 1 Sansern. 

8 hours ago, Crossy said:

When there's no wind?

About the same as solar at night.

Wind farms kill a lot of birds each month, much more  than solar farms do.

Geezer

This will never happen here. Will it?

4 hours ago, halloween said:

About the same as solar at night.

.... does wind produce more electric power than solar - When there's no wind?

.... About the same as solar at night (implying no energy production)

 

I am not a meteorologist nor scientist but it's my understanding of the following.

 

Wind is created by temperature differentials like one might see in coastal and desert areas. While such features can be used to produce energy during the day, they alone are less likely to cause night time winds. So you're correct. But wind does blow at night and not just from cyclic seasonal storms that can't tell time (LOL).

 

There are the ever present active atmospheric jet streams and huge oceanic temperate circulations that create what I'd called terrestrial winds. Then there are planetary winds caused by combined solar radiation and earth's rotation. In such global regimes winds are not constrained by day and night. That is good for personal energy production.

 

However, night time wind turbine operations might not be good for a national electric grid. For a country that has uniform day and night like Thailand as opposed to a country (or multi-national energy partnership) that spans both day and night, energy demand is much lower at night than during the day.

 

If significant wind energy is produced during the night and such energy is excess to the load demand (ie., customers) of the grid, the electricity becomes excess energy. To protect the grid, that energy must be "dumped," energy source shutdown and/or sell the energy at a "negative" price to the consumer. See link for an example of negative energy pricing.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2015/09/texas_electricity_goes_negative_wind_power_was_so_plentiful_one_night_that.html

Negative Electricity Prices Are Not A Sign Of Renewable Success

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2016/02/19/negative-electricity-prices-are-not-a-sign-of-renewable-success/#41f2d4073806

 

The relationship of renewable energy to a power grid is complicated. There must be great care to coordinate Thailand's electric grid with wind energy sources and not rush into such projects for the sake of publicity.

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

.... does wind produce more electric power than solar - When there's no wind?

.... About the same as solar at night (implying no energy production)

 

I am not a meteorologist nor scientist but it's my understanding of the following.

 

Wind is created by temperature differentials like one might see in coastal and desert areas. While such features can be used to produce energy during the day, they alone are less likely to cause night time winds. So you're correct. But wind does blow at night and not just from cyclic seasonal storms that can't tell time (LOL).

 

There are the ever present active atmospheric jet streams and huge oceanic temperate circulations that create what I'd called terrestrial winds. Then there are planetary winds caused by combined solar radiation and earth's rotation. In such global regimes winds are not constrained by day and night. That is good for personal energy production.

 

However, night time wind turbine operations might not be good for a national electric grid. For a country that has uniform day and night like Thailand as opposed to a country (or multi-national energy partnership) that spans both day and night, energy demand is much lower at night than during the day.

 

If significant wind energy is produced during the night and such energy is excess to the load demand (ie., customers) of the grid, the electricity becomes excess energy. To protect the grid, that energy must be "dumped," energy source shutdown and/or sell the energy at a "negative" price to the consumer. See link for an example of negative energy pricing.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2015/09/texas_electricity_goes_negative_wind_power_was_so_plentiful_one_night_that.html

Negative Electricity Prices Are Not A Sign Of Renewable Success

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2016/02/19/negative-electricity-prices-are-not-a-sign-of-renewable-success/#41f2d4073806

 

The relationship of renewable energy to a power grid is complicated. There must be great care to coordinate Thailand's electric grid with wind energy sources and not rush into such projects for the sake of publicity.

 

 

 

Basic wind patterns.

18 hours ago, Srikcir said:

.... does wind produce more electric power than solar - When there's no wind?

.... About the same as solar at night (implying no energy production)

 

I am not a meteorologist nor scientist but it's my understanding of the following.

 

Wind is created by temperature differentials like one might see in coastal and desert areas. While such features can be used to produce energy during the day, they alone are less likely to cause night time winds. So you're correct. But wind does blow at night and not just from cyclic seasonal storms that can't tell time (LOL).

 

There are the ever present active atmospheric jet streams and huge oceanic temperate circulations that create what I'd called terrestrial winds. Then there are planetary winds caused by combined solar radiation and earth's rotation. In such global regimes winds are not constrained by day and night. That is good for personal energy production.

 

However, night time wind turbine operations might not be good for a national electric grid. For a country that has uniform day and night like Thailand as opposed to a country (or multi-national energy partnership) that spans both day and night, energy demand is much lower at night than during the day.

 

If significant wind energy is produced during the night and such energy is excess to the load demand (ie., customers) of the grid, the electricity becomes excess energy. To protect the grid, that energy must be "dumped," energy source shutdown and/or sell the energy at a "negative" price to the consumer. See link for an example of negative energy pricing.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2015/09/texas_electricity_goes_negative_wind_power_was_so_plentiful_one_night_that.html

Negative Electricity Prices Are Not A Sign Of Renewable Success

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2016/02/19/negative-electricity-prices-are-not-a-sign-of-renewable-success/#41f2d4073806

 

The relationship of renewable energy to a power grid is complicated. There must be great care to coordinate Thailand's electric grid with wind energy sources and not rush into such projects for the sake of publicity.

 

 

 

Uncontrolled inputs are always a problem. Germany has had the experience you describe, with more input than usage, but the answer is simple (for grid control) - give control of the wind farm circuit breakers to the grid controller so that excess can be removed.

A bigger problem is the variability. As wind/solar inputs increase/decrease, another input must change to compensate. This usually means having a fossil fuel input on hot standby and/or changing load, and their design usually does not include a rapid ramping rate. Having units on such standby also has a cost which must be passed on to consumers, hence the cost of energy in the countries that have gone heavily into renewables.

3 hours ago, halloween said:

give control of the wind farm circuit breakers to the grid controller so that excess can be removed.

Yes - one of the options I mentioned: energy source shutdown

 

But consider this wind farm is a private enterprise and not state-owned. It needs sustained, predictable revenues that generate profits to O&M, a timely return of invested capital and a reasonable return on invested capital (ie., profit margin).

 

If the State controls energy generation with the ability to unilaterally shutdown an energy project for whatever reason (extreme-breach pricing agreement to favor State; don't assume the State to have a purely technical interest), the project investors assume greater risk for the success of their investment. Under such State authority, I doubt there will be privately funded wind energy projects, or frankly, any energy project in the State.

 

Of course the State and investors might negotiate in the energy pricing agreement for such State authority for unilateral shutdowns due to surplus energy production. But I'd expect substantial compensation would accrue to the project owners to keep them "financially whole" during the shutdown that may cost more than simply dumping energy or paying a negative price to the consumers.

 

19 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Yes - one of the options I mentioned: energy source shutdown

 

But consider this wind farm is a private enterprise and not state-owned. It needs sustained, predictable revenues that generate profits to O&M, a timely return of invested capital and a reasonable return on invested capital (ie., profit margin).

 

If the State controls energy generation with the ability to unilaterally shutdown an energy project for whatever reason (extreme-breach pricing agreement to favor State; don't assume the State to have a purely technical interest), the project investors assume greater risk for the success of their investment. Under such State authority, I doubt there will be privately funded wind energy projects, or frankly, any energy project in the State.

 

Of course the State and investors might negotiate in the energy pricing agreement for such State authority for unilateral shutdowns due to surplus energy production. But I'd expect substantial compensation would accrue to the project owners to keep them "financially whole" during the shutdown that may cost more than simply dumping energy or paying a negative price to the consumers.

 

Why should anyone enter into a contract buy more than they require, especially when that excess can cause damage to billions worth of infrastructure? South Australia has just commissioned a 10MWh battery which will be used for assisting fluctuation control as well as night storage - it will be interesting to see what working life it manages.

How do you "dump energy'?

5 hours ago, halloween said:

How do you "dump energy'?

Not an electrician nor power expert but what comes to mind immediately are "cold sinks" and "grounding mechanisms." If not done correctly without fail might cause grid damage.

5 hours ago, halloween said:

a 10MWh battery which will be used for assisting fluctuation control as well as night storage

I call that a cold sink. You refer to new technology developed by Telsa, not yet in operation and appears untried in a grid setting. There's risk and not sure if economically viable for a private enterprise without complete pass-through of purchase and O&M to the ratepayer.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/what-is-tesla-big-sa-battery-and-how-will-it-work/8688992

With regard to the "Green Light" windfarm, are there provisions for negative energy? That would be the responsibility of the government. However, if the output of the windfarm was in fact substantially overstated (ie., technical incompetence, inflated for government subsidies), the occurrence of negative energy might never be an issue.

5 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Not an electrician nor power expert but what comes to mind immediately are "cold sinks" and "grounding mechanisms." If not done correctly without fail might cause grid damage.

I call that a cold sink. You refer to new technology developed by Telsa, not yet in operation and appears untried in a grid setting. There's risk and not sure if economically viable for a private enterprise without complete pass-through of purchase and O&M to the ratepayer.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/what-is-tesla-big-sa-battery-and-how-will-it-work/8688992

With regard to the "Green Light" windfarm, are there provisions for negative energy? That would be the responsibility of the government. However, if the output of the windfarm was in fact substantially overstated (ie., technical incompetence, inflated for government subsidies), the occurrence of negative energy might never be an issue.

Your 5 month old link is OLD news http://utilitiesretail.energy-business-review.com/news/teslas-100mw129mwh-lithium-ion-battery-commissioned-in-south-australia-011217-5991516

And while the battery might prove a very limited storage for oversupply, there is NO way to "dump energy".

7 hours ago, halloween said:

Your 5 month old link is OLD

And your link is how old?

7 hours ago, halloween said:

there is NO way to "dump energy".

False.

4 hours ago, Srikcir said:

And your link is how old?

False.

The date was given 1/12/17.

As an electrical engineer with over 20 years in generation and system control, I await your link.

On 02/12/2017 at 2:47 AM, halloween said:

South Australia has just commissioned a 10MWh battery which will be used for assisting fluctuation control as well as night storage - it will be interesting to see what working life it manages.

A link to the BBC report of its coming on-line  ...

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358

7 hours ago, halloween said:

The date was given 1/12/17.

TY-Riccardo provided the link.

See my post #16 to Ricardo.

Edited December 3, 20178 yr by Srikcir
re-edit

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

A link to the BBC report of its coming on-line  ...

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358

TY for the link.

Does further support the question of my prior post regarding the new Thailand's Green light" mega wind farm as to whether it is safeguarded against "negative energy."

I never denied such solutions nor that there can be ways to address the issue other than  with negative energy prices. Seeing as Telsa's "battery farm" may be the first of its kind, I doubt Thailand's "Green light" has such a mechanism for an energy dump.