Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

This topic is about the Palestinians making noise, though. And the "neighbours" aren't all that into playing nice themselves.

Come on, you chaps are big enough to deal with the nomads? Show some largesse, some noblesse oblige!

 

Let them share Jerusalem equitably. It's all all nonsense anyway.

[Morch]

Just now, Grouse said:

Come on, you chaps are big enough to deal with the nomads? Show some largesse, some noblesse oblige!

 

Let them share Jerusalem equitably. It's all all nonsense anyway.

 

 

Quote

....nonsense....

[dexterm]

56 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I view your posts in the manner in which they are posted and in light of their content. Spin all you like - but justifications and support of Palestinian violence are not alien to your posts.

 

Regardless of what you feel toward Israelis or Zionism, that has nothing to do with refusing to acknowledge anything that might reflect negatively on the Palestinians. It simply paints your positions as extremely biased, highly subjective and partisan. Not really broadcasting a whole lot of connection to the "truth" you sometime go on about.

 

That you have made your extreme partisan position clear is your own business. Other than in your imagination posters are not required to make such extreme choices, and may hold less simplistic, hateful, vehement views than yours. to the extent you even had a point, its totally irrelevant.

 

The OP is about the Hamas. And the Hamas are all for violence. Obviously, being a self proclaimed (faux) humanist, you won't criticize this choice, and at the same time milk whatever is possible from each report involving casualties. The Palestinian Authority (or rather, the Fatah) have called for "days of rage" - clashes with the Israeli security forces, which, spin it all you like - amounts to pretty much the same as Hamas.

 

Being an armchair commentator thousands of miles away doesn't seem to hamper you from pronouncing judgement on anything else. 

 

>>The OP is about the Hamas. And the Hamas are all for violence.

...Hamas in its charter accepts Israel in its 67 borders (you know those borders that the heavily armed IDF is firing across through a reinforced steel fence with watchtowers at the moment killing unarmed Palestinians), when will Israel reciprocate? Talk about being all about violence.

 

>>Being an armchair commentator thousands of miles away doesn't seem to hamper you from pronouncing judgement on anything else.
..doesn't seem to stop you either. This is a public forum. I thought exchange of opinions was the general idea.

Edited December 9, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>The OP is about the Hamas. And the Hamas are all for violence.

...Hamas in its charter accepts Israel in its 67 borders (you know those borders that the heavily armed is firing across at the moment killing unarmed Palestinians), when will Israel reciprocate?

 

>>Being an armchair commentator thousands of miles away doesn't seem to hamper you from pronouncing judgement on anything else.
..doesn't seem to stop you either. This is a public forum. I thought exchange of opinions was the general idea.

 

Addressing lame deflection #1: Hamas does not recognize Israel. Accepting the 1967 lines does not imply, as far as Hamas goes, peace. Try harder. If you're having trouble, refer to the headline of the topic: Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel.

 

Addressing lame deflection #2: You cited being in an armchair thousands of miles away as excuse for avoiding criticism of the Hamas (and on other instances, the Palestinians in general). I am not as blind as yourself to faults on both sides' positions, nor do I routinely ignore all wrongs perpetrates by one of the sides, or refuse to discuss issues reflecting negatively on either.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

35 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Addressing lame deflection #1: Hamas does not recognize Israel. Accepting the 1967 lines does not imply, as far as Hamas goes, peace. Try harder. If you're having trouble, refer to the headline of the topic: Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel.

 

Addressing lame deflection #2: You cited being in an armchair thousands of miles away as excuse for avoiding criticism of the Hamas (and on other instances, the Palestinians in general). I am not as blind as yourself to faults on both sides' positions, nor do I routinely ignore all wrongs perpetrates by one of the sides, or refuse to discuss issues reflecting negatively on either.

You were the one who said Hamas were all for violence. I pointed out that they are prepared to accept Israel in its 1967 borders. The current issue is rage against Israel expanding its borders into Palestinian land. Problem is no-one actually knows (not even the Israeli government) where Israel's borders are..Jerusalem's or the  state of Israel itself. Israel has never defined them !

 

It's not being 1000s miles away from Palestine that prevents me from criticizing Hamas. It's the fact that they are legally entitled to resist in any form they like. Personally I feel that violence in the face of the massive Israeli military machine is futile and sometimes counterproductive, and I support non violent passive resistance, or agitation for one man one vote in the whole of Palestine.

 

Amidst a lot of fence sitting and pseudo objectivity you never criticize the fact that Israel should remain a predominantly Jewish state...whatever it takes. To defeat that innate bullying racism is why I post.

[JemJem]

It seems that not too many (well, at least, not the high number feared) have heeded the terror group Hamas's call.

 

Could it be that many Palestinians are now fed up of the ongoing conflict and also the levels of corruption endemic among the Palestinian authorities ?! Also, I believe that many Palestinians just want to lead an ordinary life, with at least a decent standard of living; rather than to worry about Jerusalem's being the official capital of Israel.

 

Having said that, of course, there will still be thousands fighting pitched battles with the Israeli security services, at least in the coming days.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You were the one who said Hamas were all for violence. I pointed out that they are prepared to accept Israel in its 1967 borders. The current issue is rage against Israel expanding its borders into Palestinian land. Problem is no-one actually knows (not even the Israeli government) where Israel's borders are..Jerusalem's or the  state of Israel itself. Israel has never defined them !

 

It's not being 1000s miles away from Palestine that prevents me from criticizing Hamas. It's the fact that they are legally entitled to resist in any form they like. Personally I feel that violence in the face of the massive Israeli military machine is futile and sometimes counterproductive, and I support non violent passive resistance, or agitation for one man one vote in the whole of Palestine.

 

Amidst a lot of fence sitting and pseudo objectivity you never criticize the fact that Israel should remain a predominantly Jewish state...whatever it takes. To defeat that innate bullying racism is why I post.

 

If you must, please do a better job of taking my words out of context. For starters, consult the topic and stop deflecting. If you must deflect, stop lying - the Hamas by no means "accepts Israel". It accepts a temporary state in which the Palestine will be within the 1967 lines. This was discussed on many previous topics, pathetic that you should rehash it as it these things aren't clear. The current issue is not about Israel expanding anywhere - that happened long ago. The issue at hand is Hamas advocating violence in response to the President of the USA's speech.

 

As for the rest of your nonsense - make up your mind if distance is relevant or not, you made two different claims (not that either amounts to much anyway). Regardless, none of your deflections actually addresses the extreme partisan nature and lack of objectivity which are the hallmarks of your posts, nor do they recommend your view as conductive to discussion, or point to any merits other than it being a handy propaganda construct.

 

Deny it all you will, but justification and support of Palestinian violence are not, in fact, alien to your posts. Deny it all you will, but you do milk any unfortunate consequences of Palestinian violence to the max, while rarely, if ever, offering much by way of reflection on the responsibility of Palestinian leaders and the Palestinians in generals in this regard.

 

I get it that in your schoolyard world, people are obligated to take sides, and express extreme views as vehemently as possible. Hence the "fence sitting" nonsense. I get it that someone who doesn't do "objectivity", while supposedly being aware of actual facts will do his his best to deride anything that resembles "objectivity" from others. And of course, can't have it without some more off-topic deflection while throwing in the simplistic misrepresentation of another poster's views.

 

As for you being unequivocally against either bullying or racism..... But of course, according to your bizarre view such things could never be attributed to Palestinians, for example.

 

And now a reminder of that thing you try not to discuss - Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel.

[Morch]

47 minutes ago, JemJem said:

It seems that not too many (well, at least, not the high number feared) have heeded the terror group Hamas's call.

 

Could it be that many Palestinians are now fed up of the ongoing conflict and also the levels of corruption endemic among the Palestinian authorities ?! Also, I believe that many Palestinians just want to lead an ordinary life, with at least a decent standard of living; rather than to worry about Jerusalem's being the official capital of Israel.

 

Having said that, of course, there will still be thousands fighting pitched battles with the Israeli security services, at least in the coming days.

 

As said, there are thousands of demonstrators participating in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Lower scale and intensity demonstrations carried out within Israel by Arab citizens.

 

With regard to the Gaza Strip, friction points with Israeli security forces are limited to several "routine" flashpoints along the border fence and near the border passages. Whether participation is on par with what was expected or not, no idea. Seems about right, though.

 

When it comes to the West Bank, the main factors determining participation levels and, more importantly, direct clashes with Israeli security forces, are the PA leadership's public statements, the actual directives given to the Palestinian security forces, and the degree to which the latter obey them. When they wish it, these forces are rather adept at keeping demonstrators at a safe distance or funneling them to less volatile locations. There are localized and personal variations as to the level of control both the PA  and its security forces can (or are willing) to apply.

 

East Jerusalem itself is a somewhat different category. There are no Palestinian security forces there, and up until the previous demonstrations, the local Palestinian populace was not exactly at the fore of such activities. This changed, with residents displaying impressive persistence and unity - but the context was more concrete and involved clearer religious significance. Whether that was a one off remains to be seen.

 

I think people underestimate the meaning of Jerusalem for either Israelis and Palestinians. It's not about logic, and not necessarily even about religion.

[Catoni]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

Agreed but when another 911 rank atrocity occurs you will be able to trace some motivational roots back to Delta Tango

 

As for stoking the flames, Trump has just thrown a Molotov cocktail (Putin cocktail with a splash of polonium) on the flames to divert from his appalling situation.

         What ? ?    You think the Islamic terrorist extremists have not wanted to pull another 9/11 all along ? ? ? 

   Hey.... I've got a bridge to sell you.... cheap..  

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Catoni said:

         What ? ?    You think the Islamic terrorist extremists have not wanted to pull another 9/11 all along ? ? ? 

   Hey.... I've got a bridge to sell you.... cheap..  

Presumably a bridge of sighs not a bridge of friendship ?

[dexterm]

A sample of the intifada so far.

 

Israel has killed  2 more in Gaza supposedly attacking a Hamas training compound, with the most moral army in the world injuring 6 children in the process. 

Even though Hamas have not fired at Israel, Israel regularly collectively punishes Hamas for any fire emanating from Gaza.

 

In East Jerusalem the IDF fired stun grenades and tear gas and charged on horseback using their whips through a crowd of peaceful demonstrators in Salah Eddin, one of the city's busiest shopping streets, because the demonstrators did not have a permit from the illegal occupiers.

 

'Israeli forces also closed down most shops on Salah Eddin and confiscated Palestinian flags and posters from demonstrators.

"One police officer didn't like a poster that a woman was holding. He went to take it, the woman objected so he punched her full in the face," said Fisher.'
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/tense-scenes-rallies-jerusalem-move-continue-171209134755423.html

 

So much for freedom of speech in the only supposed democracy in the Middle East

 

[Srikcir]

20 minutes ago, dexterm said:

the only supposed democracy in the Middle East

At times Israeli government seems to behave more like a Jewish theocracy.

[FreddieRoyle]

This story has just taken a very violent turn. A synagogue in Gothenberg,Sweden has just been firebombed by a large gang of attackers, furious about the Palestinian situ. Not sure why this is not headlining in all media, maybe it needs time? The President of the Jewish Assembly in Sweden was inside the synagogue at the time of the attack.

 

 No excuse whatsoever for this violence. It is a disgrace.

[stevenl]

32 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

This story has just taken a very violent turn. A synagogue in Gothenberg,Sweden has just been firebombed by a large gang of attackers, furious about the Palestinian situ. Not sure why this is not headlining in all media, maybe it needs time? The President of the Jewish Assembly in Sweden was inside the synagogue at the time of the attack.

 

 No excuse whatsoever for this violence. It is a disgrace.

It is in the media, attack was apparently carried out by 20 men.

 

Agree, no excuse for this, on the upside: no injuries and no fire to the building. At the moment I would say the wounded in the Palestinian territories and in Israel are more serious than this incident though.

 

No surprise these things are happening right now, and this is exactly what DT is after, so he can blame the Palestinians after he incited it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by stevenl

[car720]

17 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The poster I replied to routinely presents two distinct images of the Palestinians, both contrived. On the one hand, the Palestinians are presented as passive, naive,  bearing no responsibility or accountability for anything much. They are perpetual victims, and as such all criticism and condemnation ought to be suspended. On the other hand, the very same people are touted as prime candidates for either founding a progressive state of their own or prepped to embrace them Western values of liberalism and multiculturalism, by integrating with Israelis. That these presentations are not compatible with each other, never mind reality gives a hint as to most of his nonsense.

 

So when framing things as either a violent struggle or surrender - that's more a point of view suggested by a poster who is a wannabe political activist, rather than a balanced take. One cannot ignore the series of bad choices and crap leadership which got the Palestinians to where they are.

 

The only real gains they ever made toward achieving their national aspirations happened when they negotiated and accepted that this comes with certain concessions. Each instance in which diplomacy was derailed and the route of violence taken, resulted in worsening their circumstances. To put this in context - had the Palestinians accepted the original partition plan, they would have been in a way better position relative to what they may get today. The same applies for each and every consecutive instance. And with each new opportunity botched, the returns get smaller. Is it fair? Probably not. Such is life.

 

The Palestinians would gain nothing from cutting relations with the USA, which still funds them generously. There is no credible alternative mediator readily available. There is no way that these "days of rage" will change Trump's decision. The Arab/Muslim world is in no position (and frankly, are less interested) to provide much support other than relatively mild expressions of solidarity and outrage. 

 

A course of action advocating violence will go nowhere, and will only result in more Palestinian casualties. Some posters may be all for that, as it serves to fuel both their pet agendas and supposedly, will eventually discredit Israel and the USA. Not that it's overly clear if, how or when this will happen, but shouldn't worry them keyboard warriors. Some say - why not take up a non-violent struggle? It's a good question, and not too complicated to answer for anyone with a bit of first hand experience with Arab and/or Palestinian culture. Simply doesn't resonate well with local ethos. There are bits of this, but diluted in their message and inconsistent in application. How about changing course and opting for equal civil rights, then?! Yeah....and just drop that dream of independence and sovereignty, be citizens of Israel? Not an overwhelming winning proposition, not even with the actual interpretation being somewhat removed from the above mentioned kumbaya version.

 

Only two worthwhile things out there. Get back on the negotiations track, and cut the best deal available, while accepting it is going to come short of expectations. Otherwise, focus inwards - internal reconciliation, political and social reform, rebuild institutions associated with statehood, and launch a diplomatic campaign resting on a solid foundation. While applying either, engage the Israeli public directly - build a better understanding, rapport and trust with those forces more receptive to the Palestinian position.

 

As for the rest of your post, I don't really believe  that you any such "trouble", considering the biased and incorrect way you phrase your "argument" and faux question.

I  don't know if I am biased.  I don't particularly like any of them at all.

I cannot help remembering Lebanon though from several years back when it used to be one of the banking capitols of the world and also an extremely beautiful place so I also wonder what strife abounded in Palestine before it was  occupied.  Is occupied the right word?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

Come on, you chaps are big enough to deal with the nomads? Show some largesse, some noblesse oblige!

 

Let them share Jerusalem equitably. It's all all nonsense anyway.

Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city under UN supervision, and was never part of Israel in the UN charter.

The UN had only just begun, but failed in its first major test when it allowed the terms of the charter creating Israel to be voided, just because the US sided with Israel.

It has since shown itself to be completely useless in conflict resolution, but that is down to the corrupt veto system which made the entire project a nonsense from the beginning.

It is worth remembering that Israel would never have existed now if the Russians had vetoed it, but for some reason they did not.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

I  don't know if I am biased.  I don't particularly like any of them at all.

I cannot help remembering Lebanon though from several years back when it used to be one of the banking capitols of the world and also an extremely beautiful place so I also wonder what strife abounded in Palestine before it was  occupied.  Is occupied the right word?

Palestine has probably been "occupied" for all of human history, but the Romans, the Turks, the British and now the Zionists are the best known.

[craigt3365]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

This story has just taken a very violent turn. A synagogue in Gothenberg,Sweden has just been firebombed by a large gang of attackers, furious about the Palestinian situ. Not sure why this is not headlining in all media, maybe it needs time? The President of the Jewish Assembly in Sweden was inside the synagogue at the time of the attack.

 

 No excuse whatsoever for this violence. It is a disgrace.

Why would it make international headlines?  Nobody was hurt, doesn't seem anything was burned.  Sure, it's horrible, but hardly worth of the headlines for international news.  Only a small amount of space there....

[Grouse]

47 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city under UN supervision, and was never part of Israel in the UN charter.

The UN had only just begun, but failed in its first major test when it allowed the terms of the charter creating Israel to be voided, just because the US sided with Israel.

It has since shown itself to be completely useless in conflict resolution, but that is down to the corrupt veto system which made the entire project a nonsense from the beginning.

It is worth remembering that Israel would never have existed now if the Russians had vetoed it, but for some reason they did not.

Seemed like a good idea at the time! Balfour said he had done 58 impact assessments 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Seemed like a good idea at the time! Balfour said he had done 58 impact assessments 

Had the project been carried out properly and Israel confined to the 1948 borders, with Jerusalem an international city, the world would have been spared much blood and treasure.

 

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had the project been carried out properly and Israel confined to the 1948 borders, with Jerusalem an international city, the world would have been spared much blood and treasure.

 

Maybe the land could be bought back, my boy (it'll be worth a penny or two but the Arabs could afford it)

[FreddieRoyle]

46 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Why would it make international headlines?  Nobody was hurt, doesn't seem anything was burned.  Sure, it's horrible, but hardly worth of the headlines for international news.  Only a small amount of space there....

consider if a gang of 20 masked white men firebombed a mosque in Europe and the muslims were all terrified for their lives hiding in the basement. Mate, that would be headline news on CNN for a month. Why do liberals always try hiding muslim violence?

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

consider if a gang of 20 masked white men firebombed a mosque in Europe and the muslims were all terrified for their lives hiding in the basement. Mate, that would be headline news on CNN for a month. Why do liberals always try hiding muslim violence?

Any idea what triggered it? Just asking? 

[FreddieRoyle]

Just now, Grouse said:

Any idea what triggered it? Just asking? 

according to the media it was outrage over Trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem. But in my opinion seeing as it was about the 30th firebomb in Sweden in the last month it was just violence directed at westerners and western values by the usual suspects and the embassy saga is a nice excuse

[Srikcir]

16 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

consider if a gang of 20 masked white men firebombed a mosque in Europe and the muslims were all terrified for their lives hiding in the basement. Mate, that would be headline news on CNN for a month. Why do liberals always try hiding muslim violence?

And yet from Sweden:

Dvir Maoz, a representative of the World Bnei Akiva movement in Gothenburg, who witnessed the incident, said "At the same time, I cannot say that we feel an increase in anti-Semitism every day,”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/239092

Is Maoz trying to hide Muslim violence too?

[FreddieRoyle]

4 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

And yet from Sweden:

Dvir Maoz, a representative of the World Bnei Akiva movement in Gothenburg, who witnessed the incident, said "At the same time, I cannot say that we feel an increase in anti-Semitism every day,”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/239092

Is Maoz trying to hide Muslim violence too?

from your link "There were a few children who were very stressed. One of them told me that he was feeling very unsafe. Another told me casually that because he has a very Jewish name, it causes Arabs in his school to curse him, harass him and spit on him. It's very hard for him,” continued Maoz."

 

If being spat on regularly in school and firebombed in the mosque is not anti-semitism in your opinion then there is no point discussing this palestinian upsrising.

[craigt3365]

28 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

consider if a gang of 20 masked white men firebombed a mosque in Europe and the muslims were all terrified for their lives hiding in the basement. Mate, that would be headline news on CNN for a month. Why do liberals always try hiding muslim violence?

And why do conservatives always try to make the smallest thing international headline news?

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/four-mosques-burn-as-2017-begins?utm_term=.uw0PzNxkv#.teY4koKMr

[geriatrickid]

21 hours ago, wabothai said:

For your information trumper, most people in the world are upset

Are those the same people who look the other way  when rockets are fired from Gaza into  Israel?

Are those the same people who support the  discrimination against people of the  jewish faith in  muslim lands?

Are those the same people who are oblivious to the fact that more arabs of the jewish faith were expelled from arab countries, and  who lost all of their assets and  belongings as they fled for their lives, than the arabs of the muslim faith who heeded the arab legion  and left Jerusalem and the west bank because the arab  armies had promised to exterminate every last jew when they attacked Israel in 1948?

 

Why should anyone   care what these people think? It's not as if they have ever done anything to promote peace in the middle east.

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, dexterm said:

A sample of the intifada so far.

 

Israel has killed  2 more in Gaza supposedly attacking a Hamas training compound, with the most moral army in the world injuring 6 children in the process. 

Even though Hamas have not fired at Israel, Israel regularly collectively punishes Hamas for any fire emanating from Gaza.

 

In East Jerusalem the IDF fired stun grenades and tear gas and charged on horseback using their whips through a crowd of peaceful demonstrators in Salah Eddin, one of the city's busiest shopping streets, because the demonstrators did not have a permit from the illegal occupiers.

 

'Israeli forces also closed down most shops on Salah Eddin and confiscated Palestinian flags and posters from demonstrators.

"One police officer didn't like a poster that a woman was holding. He went to take it, the woman objected so he punched her full in the face," said Fisher.'
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/tense-scenes-rallies-jerusalem-move-continue-171209134755423.html

 

So much for freedom of speech in the only supposed democracy in the Middle East

 

 

There is no "intifada", other than in your posts which echo Hamas propaganda.

 

Two members of Hamas military wing were killed when a Hamas post was attacked in retaliation for rockets launched from the Gaza Strip. That there were civilians, and worse, kids, injured is unfortunate - but does not really have a whole lot to do with your bogus "most moral army" meme.

 

As you very well know, and was repeated on many previous topics - the understandings reached after the last round of fighting are that Hamas is responsible when it comes to rockets launched. Can't claim to be the sovereign power in the Gaza Strip, and not be held responsible. That you do not like it, or refuse to accept facts and reality, does not change either one bit.

 

Your descriptions of "peaceful demonstration" are misleading. Enough pictures and clips around - not quite what you're trying to sell. In your world, of course, police forces allow demonstrations to take place wherever, and demonstrators do whatever. Reality is, of course, different.

 

I guess that you will use your default pitiful excuses to justify or ignore any Palestinian violence associated with the demonstrations. 

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Morch

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Srikcir said:

At times Israeli government seems to behave more like a Jewish theocracy.

 

And some posters will insist on off-topic deflections.