High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

[ratcatcher]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You could very well be correct. Thailand does not have a two track system capable of handling high volumes of freight at fast speeds. This could just be a Trojan horse to build a decent freight system, and then quietly forget the passenger trains.

To re-use your phrase, you could also very well be correct.  

The British used railways as a way to expand their Colonial Empire in the 19th and early 20th  centuries. Cecil John Rhodes' Cape to Cairo dream gave southern Africa its present day system. What the Chinese are doing is the same thing, you can move armies on the railway, as the Japanese knew in WW 11. 

[Dave67]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just a wild guess, but IMO only the line to Nong Kai will be laid, and it won't terminate in BKK, perhaps at Si Racha port, but more likely at the Thai/ Malaysian border, connecting with the railway in Malaya.

Narrow gauge in Malaysia, from the border to KL. I was on the project that built it or are you going build  2 railways there as well

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Dave67 said:

Narrow gauge in Malaysia, from the border to KL. I was on the project that built it or are you going to 2 railways there as well

Not difficult to transfer containers from one line to another at the border, or they could just terminate in Surin and build a new port there.

[Dave67]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not difficult to transfer containers from one line to another at the border, or they could just terminate in Surin and build a new port there.

Mate not being funny but that a ridiculous statement, put it on lorries drive it through then put it back on the train, have you  seen Pedang Basar Station  

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[owl sees all]

How does the train get across the Mekong? A new bridge!?

[Dave67]

Just now, owl sees all said:

How does the train get across the Mekong? A new bridge!?

I would assume so

[ratcatcher]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just a wild guess, but IMO only the line to Nong Kai will be laid, and it won't terminate in BKK, perhaps at Si Racha port, but more likely at the Thai/ Malaysian border, connecting with the railway in Malaya.

Your wild guess is fairly accurate at the moment.

The Nong Khai line continuing down from Vientiane via Nong  Khai , will come down to Korat and onward to Kaeng Khoi junction then southwards to Chachoengsao Jct and on to the Eastern seaboard of Chonburi  (Laem Chabang) and Rayong, .Maptaphut. 

Your comment re connection at Padang Besar, Thailand border, would be metre gauge to metre gauge as the KTM West and East coast lines are both meter gauge at present.

Any tracks laid under Chinese plans would be standard gauge (1.435mm) 

 

 

 

 

connecting with the railway in Malaya.

[ratcatcher]

2 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

I would assume so

The present line runs across the Friendship Bridge down the middle. The new railway would probably need a new bridge as suggested.

 

[Dave67]

1 minute ago, ratcatcher said:

The present line runs across the Friendship Bridge down the middle. The new railway would probably need a new bridge as suggested.

 

When you consider the size of the project a new railway is not an issue

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[ratcatcher]

Just now, Dave67 said:

When you consider the size of the project a railway is not an issue

Do you mean 'a new railway bridge' is not an issue?

[Dave67]

Just now, ratcatcher said:

Do you mean 'a new railway bridge' is not an issue?

Yes very small part of the railway they are building

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[Moti24]

High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

 

Creating a speeding bullet the size of the deputy pm's waistline is insane!  No doubt the weight restrictions will apply the same as for the trucks!  Stopping distance must be 6-10 kms, that's assuming it stays on the rails long enough to stop!

 

I hope they're going to publish a timetable so people can avoid being anywhere near the line when the bullet's flying.

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, Moti24 said:

High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

 

Creating a speeding bullet the size of the deputy pm's waistline is insane!  No doubt the weight restrictions will apply the same as for the trucks!  Stopping distance must be 6-10 kms, that's assuming it stays on the rails long enough to stop!

 

I hope they're going to publish a timetable so people can avoid being anywhere near the line when the bullet's flying.

If its Freight it won't be bullet train probably 180 kph+ max

[ratcatcher]

4 minutes ago, Moti24 said:

High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

 

Creating a speeding bullet the size of the deputy pm's waistline is insane!  No doubt the weight restrictions will apply the same as for the trucks!  Stopping distance must be 6-10 kms, that's assuming it stays on the rails long enough to stop!

 

I hope they're going to publish a timetable so people can avoid being anywhere near the line when the bullet's flying.

You're not paying attention to the discussion. Freight car loads are higher than highway trucks, even overloaded ones. Max speed will be in the 160-180km/h area.  Freight doesn't run to a published timetable, just schedules between shippers etc.

Edited December 8, 2017 by ratcatcher

[thaibeachlovers]

26 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Mate not being funny but that a ridiculous statement, put it on lorries drive it through then put it back on the train, have you  seen Pedang Basar Station  

Oh lordy lordy. Think about it, puleese.

Have overlapping lines on the border and transfer direct from one side to the other. No need for lorries at all.

[sanuk711]

6 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only

China's rail system---wikipedia---Certain mixed use freight and passenger rail lines, that can be upgraded for train speeds of 250 km/h, with current passenger service of at least 200 km/h , are also considered high-speed rail.

 

If anyone does not consider 200--250 Klms high speed, then OK..maybe you need to get a rocket....I dont know where you come from but certainly not from riding the rail systems of the UK or USA

 

Who is building this project

Who has built the biggest HS-rail system in the world in their own country then built so many other systems all around the world-Africa/Turkey etc.

And what bar fly's are telling us this can never be done---(once again)  yer I wonder who to go with on this one.

.

Of course its going to take freight as well--all I day I hope, & so do all the people in Issan hope. We watch Daily as hundreds of 18 wheel truck trailers make their way up the highways to try to keep up with a land locked country that is growing at speed--& takes so much of Thailand's exports.

If that rail system can  cut that road traffic down by just half--driving will be wonderful.

 

[Moti24]

5 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

You're not paying attention to the discussion. Freight car loads are higher than highway trucks, even overloaded ones. Max speed will be in the 160-180km/h area.  Freight doesn't run to a published timetable, just schedules between shippers etc.

Thanks for stating the obvious!  But, your comments refer to the real world!  TiT!!!!!

[owl sees all]

5 minutes ago, Moti24 said:

Thanks for stating the obvious!  But, your comments refer to the real world!  TiT!!!!!

A new bridge across the Mekong would cost a fortune. Is all this worth it? Resurect the Thai freight airship idea.  Slower, but could carry people too.

Edited December 8, 2017 by owl sees all

[aguy30]

Sounds like China is making plans for the future for when they take over Thailand and it becomes a China province. Mainland China will then have rail connections to their new port cities of Laem Chabong and Rayong, Province of Thailand, China.

[Moti24]

4 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Resurect the Thai freight airship idea.  Slower, but could carry people too.

That would be fatal without instilling the preventative maintenance inportance in the minds of the morons running the show!

 

It'd be like teaching a buffaloe to ride a motorcycle!

[Dave67]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh lordy lordy. Think about it, puleese.

Have overlapping lines on the border and transfer direct from one side to the other. No need for lorries at all.

Mate, I've been it the railway game for 30 years, you carry on in your fantasy world, "overlapping lines" never heard that one before

[ratcatcher]

20 minutes ago, Moti24 said:

Thanks for stating the obvious!  But, your comments refer to the real world!  TiT!!!!!

Thanks for your comment. I believe most people involved in this particular discussion were referring to the real world.

[Ricardo]

 

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh lordy lordy. Think about it, puleese.

Have overlapping lines on the border and transfer direct from one side to the other. No need for lorries at all.

Given that the SRT is already dualling/upgrading much of its metre-gauge line down to Padang Besar, with the latest contract (Hua Hin to Prachuap) awarded to Ital-Thai a few months ago, the transfer-point for containers is more likely IMO to be the new freight-yards near the (currently under-construction) new Ban Sue (Bangkok) main-terminal (which is planned to  replace Hualumpong), where the proposed Khorat-Bangkok route will terminate.

 

They can then move, on the existing SRT meter-gauge network, South or up to Chiang Mai or even back up to those places in the North-East where the new line doesn't go.  That makes good commercial sense to me.

 

One other error in that (frankly awfully ignorant & misleading) article, only the 3km-test-track and the Khorat-Bangkok sections have yet got even close to starting, there remain the Khorat-border section & the line down to Laem Chabang & Maptaphut, still to be agreed or financed.

[Dave67]

29 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

China's rail system---wikipedia---Certain mixed use freight and passenger rail lines, that can be upgraded for train speeds of 250 km/h, with current passenger service of at least 200 km/h , are also considered high-speed rail.

 

If anyone does not consider 200--250 Klms high speed, then OK..maybe you need to get a rocket....I dont know where you come from but certainly not from riding the rail systems of the UK or USA

 

Who is building this project

Who has built the biggest HS-rail system in the world in their own country then built so many other systems all around the world-Africa/Turkey etc.

And what bar fly's are telling us this can never be done---(once again)  yer I wonder who to go with on this one.

.

Of course its going to take freight as well--all I day I hope, & so do all the people in Issan hope. We watch Daily as hundreds of 18 wheel truck trailers make their way up the highways to try to keep up with a land locked country that is growing at speed--& takes so much of Thailand's exports.

If that rail system can  cut that road traffic down by just half--driving will be wonderful.

 

I have 3 High speed rail projects my CV sunshine all 300kph Taiwan Lenght 350k Wuhan -Guangzhou-830k, X'ian -Zhengzhou 650k. Carry on if want keep making yourself look stupid

[sanuk711]

3 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

I have 3 High speed rail projects my CV sunshine all 300kph Taiwan Lenght 350k Wuhan -Guangzhou-830k, X'ian -Zhengzhou 650k. Carry on if want keep making yourself look stupid

Well that's it then Dave....your be a shoo in when they start, just leave the name of the bar your at and I am sure the Chines engineers who know absolutely nothing will beat their way to you.......

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

Well that's it then Dave....your be a shoo in when they start, just leave the name of the bar your at and I am sure the Chines engineers who know absolutely nothing will beat their way to you.......

Funnily enough mate part of my job in China was to train the Chinese Engineers how to construct HSR. Like everything else they copied the German and Japanese systems

[spidermike007]

One wonders if it could be used or both passengers, and freight. That makes sense. But, can high speed trains handle much freight? 

 

Citing an executive at China Railway Rolling Stock Corp (CRRC), it said the country’s first super-fast freight train had been designed to haul cargo at speeds of up to 250 kph and would roll off an assembly line in the first half of 2016. The new freight trains are said to be modelled on existing bullet trains, which can run at up to 350 kph.

 

https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freight-directory/news/China-building-high-speed-freight-trains/65289.htm#.WipblyOB3UY

 

 

 

 

[ratcatcher]

20 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

Well that's it then Dave....your be a shoo in when they start, just leave the name of the bar your at and I am sure the Chines engineers who know absolutely nothing will beat their way to you.......

He'll probably give you three bar names. The Joint Bar. The Rebar and the Draw Bar

or this bar 

[Ricardo]

1 hour ago, sanuk711 said:

If anyone does not consider 200--250 Klms high speed, then OK..maybe you need to get a rocket....I dont know where you come from but certainly not from riding the rail systems of the UK or USA

 

I'd just point out that the Kunming-Laos section of the line anticipates maximum-speeds below the range you suggest above.  IIRC 160kph or 180kph was the maximum-speed planned.

 

Quote

And what bar fly's are telling us this can never be done---(once again)  yer I wonder who to go with on this one.

 

In the decade or so over which I've been watching this project evolve, and occasionally commenting on TV, I've never once done so from a bar.  Nor have I ever said it can't be done, only that I am concerned that it should be a paying-proposition, in whatever form & with whatever financing eventually apply. 

 

Thailand could not easily afford a dud capital-investment of this scale, and for the sections thus far discussed, they're currently intending to finance it themselves, since they don't like the terms China has offered so far.  Unlike Laos, where it's 70% Chinese-loans.

 

You might consider that some retirees here have had successful international business-careers, or are even still enjoying them,  it is definitely  mistaken to assume that we're all propping-up a bar in Pattaya  ...  although I do enjoy doing that too, from time to time.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ricardo

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

One wonders if it could be used or both passengers, and freight. That makes sense. But, can high speed trains handle much freight? 

 

Citing an executive at China Railway Rolling Stock Corp (CRRC), it said the country’s first super-fast freight train had been designed to haul cargo at speeds of up to 250 kph and would roll off an assembly line in the first half of 2016. The new freight trains are said to be modelled on existing bullet trains, which can run at up to 350 kph.

 

https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freight-directory/news/China-building-high-speed-freight-trains/65289.htm#.WipblyOB3UY

 

 

 

 

Can , being the word. Normally a railway is built to a standard of higher speed than the actual running speed. Also going up 50k from 300 would mean changes to the track won't go into great detail but rate of change of the curve transition would be a lower rate lengthening the curve transition, 

 

Freight train at 250kph , would be funny shape bullet train carrying 40ft containers, still, feasible. Weight and rail wear would be the issue, but anything is possible in China