New point system aims to weed out bad drivers

[maddox41]

When do I stop laughing as 90% of Thais won't be driving after 6 months with this system

Been this way in Australia for years 12 points lose any don't  get any back  for 3 years it can work it does work just not here nothing works here anyway 

Another waste if resources and time 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

When I worked in Australia, traffic tickets were handed out by cops in patrol cars and at radar check points. That was ages ago.

 

How do they hand out speeding and traffic light tickets these days?

Australia has a demerit point system as advocated in the OP - (UK has an accumulative system).

In Oz, the  licences are issued by the States.

Back in the late 90s and into the new centuryIn Queensland, the amount of speed cameras etc increased dramatically on all roads as they did elsewhere in Oz  too. .

Tickets are issued by mail. To the registered owner.

You have 3 choices within 28 days

1. Pay the fine,
2. elect to go to court, 
3. nominate someone else as the driver of the vehicle.

 

In both the UK and Australia you have the option to go to court.

 

To achieve this effectively one needs several factors to be in place - most of which would require major political reforms in Thailand.

 

• You need a fully trained and uncorrupt enforcement force - usually the police.
• You need a court/justice system that is separate from the police.
• You need well-designed signed and demarcated roads.
• A system that can send out fines and collect them.

 

Most people would think twice about breaking the law, EXCEPT when it comes to driving laws, offences in ALL countries are incredibly common. Deterrents seem to be fines, banning from driving and even imprisonment - there are also therapeutic and re-educational approaches.

I fail to see that Thailand has the required skills or infrastructure to effectively introduce any of this without major political, social and engineering reforms

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Airbagwill

[NanLaew]

49 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Australia has a demerit point system as advocated in the OP - (UK has an accumulative system).

In Oz, the  licences are issued by the States.

Back in the late 90s and into the new centuryIn Queensland, the amount of speed cameras etc increased dramatically on all roads as they did elsewhere in Oz  too. .

Tickets are issued by mail. To the registered owner.

You have 3 choices within 28 days

1. Pay the fine,
2. elect to go to court, 
3. nominate someone else as the driver of the vehicle.

 

In both the UK and Australia you have the option to go to court.

 

To achieve this effectively one needs several factors to be in place - most of which would require major political reforms in Thailand.

 

• You need a fully trained and uncorrupt enforcement force - usually the police.
• You need a court/justice system that is separate from the police.
• You need well-designed signed and demarcated roads.
• A system that can send out fines and collect them.

 

Most people would think twice about breaking the law, EXCEPT when it comes to driving laws, offences in ALL countries are incredibly common. Deterrents seem to be fines, banning from driving and even imprisonment - there are also therapeutic and re-educational approaches.

I fail to see that Thailand has the required skills or infrastructure to effectively introduce any of this without major political, social and engineering reforms

 

With reference to your bullet-points.

 

If it's an automated ticket-in-the-mail system, where exactly are the police involved?

 

The much maligned Thai Justice system is not in the pocket of the police.

 

I have no problems with the highway signage and ever since the US Army Corps of Engineers were involved with designing and building Thailand's major highway network, things are pretty good when it comes to the nations roads.

 

The system you speak of is what the OP is all about. They're not claiming it's any sort of silver bullet BTW.

Edited December 16, 2017 by NanLaew

[StevieAus]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

When I worked in Australia, traffic tickets were handed out by cops in patrol cars and at radar check points. That was ages ago.

 

How do they hand out speeding and traffic light tickets these days?

I should have been clearer as I was referring to the cameras that detect speeding of which certainly in NSW there has been a huge increase in recent years

Obviously if you are pulled over. by the police they know who the driver is

[Airbagwill]

9 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

With reference to your bullet-points.

 

If it's an automated ticket-in-the-mail system, where exactly are the police involved?

 

The much maligned Thai Justice system is not in the pocket of the police.

 

I have no problems with the highway signage and ever since the US Army Corps of Engineers were involved with designing and building Thailand's major highway network, things are pretty good when it comes to the nations roads.

 

The system you speak of is what the OP is all about. They're not claiming it's any sort of silver bullet BTW.

I'm pretty much in disagreement with every point you made

 

Firstly the police set up and administer the cameras are responsible for positioning, calibration and maintenance have been cases where the positioning for instance has been questioned as it might have been set up to trap rather than prevent.

 

As for the police, there is no separation of power - they tend to set themselves up as judge and jury in the event of a crash and try to analyse and administer "justice" in the form of payments at the scene. In fact most of this is illegal even in Thailand, but if it makes the problem go away...etc. etc.. They are of course not trained in any of this. Taking any case to court in Thailand is a long-winded business and unfortunately the courts and police see themselves as one and the same in most circumstances

 

As for the highways - they were originally based on a 1960s American system - at a time when road deaths in the USA were around 30 per 100k! The roads in the US even now suffer form that legacy, as the US still has one of the highest death rates in the developed world. Incidentally the Thai/US roads system was not planned particularly to benefit Thailand but to make it easier for the US military to move heavy equipment and ordinance around. Thailand is now, at the behest of the Chinese, introducing a new (equally lethal?) road system that meets the requirements of a bourgeoning industrial nation. 

 

Thailand STILL pursues the old US philosophy of long multi-laned straight roads where as this is known to increase the likelihood of crashes. Furthermore it is only in the last year or two that they have begun to remove trees from the central reservation and install Armco barriers as opposed to concrete. - All outdated US concepts.

The signage system in the states is archaic in the extreme. What Thailand has is the remnants of the US system with bits and bobs of the EU system. The EU system is a far batter system replying in short reaction curve symbols.

However the positioning of signage and the corresponding layout of lanes etc. on Thai roads is simply not done correctly, if at all.

 

In the EU road signage is positioned for maximum visibility and the town names are ordered re distance and positioned above the appropriate lane. The type of road is also signified by the color and type of the sign. Billboards etc. are illegal in the EU and trees and other obstacles are religiously removed. The positioning of signs should be calculated for visibility and reaction a little above the average speed for that piece of road - Thailand does none of this.

 

The result is that signs are often invisible, they are positioned to late for a safe reaction they are not coordinated with the lane markings etc.

 

.... and of course there is the infamous U-turn....need I say more?

 

-PS - "The system you speak of is what the OP is all about. They're not claiming it's any sort of silver bullet BTW." - I'm not arguing that, my initial point is that repeatedly and more frequently in the past few months various nabobs have come out with their own "pronouncements" on road safety - none of which are practical or can have any effect. All it does is show how little they understand about road safety. In fact a lot of then are presented as if they are silver bullets too!

 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

I'm pretty much in disagreement with every point you made

And not very succinct or accurate so here we go.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Firstly the police set up and administer the cameras are responsible for positioning, calibration and maintenance have been cases where the positioning for instance has been questioned as it might have been set up to trap rather than prevent.

You are from the 'speed cameras are for revenue and do not improve road safety' camp maybe? You may also be talking of your experience in either the UK or Australia? Meanwhile, back in Thailand, the very effective network of speed cameras in Khon Kaen (for example) have been in place and working for maybe 4 years now. They are monitored, tickets are issued (in the post) and in my very frequent and lengthy passing through experience, the speed of traffic, especially on the long and congested straight bits of Mitrapharp north and south of town, is aa whole helluva lot slower AND SAFER than it was say 10-15 years ago.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

As for the police, there is no separation of power - they tend to set themselves up as judge and jury in the event of a crash and try to analyse and administer "justice" in the form of payments at the scene. In fact most of this is illegal even in Thailand, but if it makes the problem go away...etc. etc.. They are of course not trained in any of this. Taking any case to court in Thailand is a long-winded business and unfortunately the courts and police see themselves as one and the same in most circumstances

Now you are back in Thailand, good. On the automatic, ticket-in-the-post system, there are no cops acting as 'judge and jury'. Moreover, in the event of a crash, and if they ever show up, the first thing the cops ascertain is if either or both (or all) cars involved have insurance. The greater number of drivers are insured these days and the cops lose interest rapidly unless one or other of the parties is uninsured. Then the cops pretend to be working in their best interests and obfuscate the otherwise standard operating procedures of who pays what to whom. Over 20 years ago when insurance was a novelty, the cops made loads of money brokering settlements between mutually uninsured parties. Those days are mostly long gone. As for your contention of Thai courts and police "seeing themselves as one" that's just plain nonsense... unless you mean that YOU see them as one. They are most assuredly not.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

As for the highways - they were originally based on a 1960s American system - at a time when road deaths in the USA were around 30 per 100k! The roads in the US even now suffer form that legacy, as the US still has one of the highest death rates in the developed world. Incidentally the Thai/US roads system was not planned particularly to benefit Thailand but to make it easier for the US military to move heavy equipment and ordinance around. Thailand is now, at the behest of the Chinese, introducing a new (equally lethal?) road system that meets the requirements of a bourgeoning industrial nation. 

OK, if you say so. The US Army Cops of Engineers were involved primarily with building Highway 2. All 4 Thai national highways had their origins way before any Americans got involved in Vietnam and AFAIK, there were no warplanes based in Chiang Mai or Songkhla where Highway 1 and 4 exeunt respectively. However, the somewhat dated construction techniques were grandfathered into Thailand's own expansion and improvements but have been superceded with newer and better construction technologies, especially on newer motorways. 

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Thailand STILL pursues the old US philosophy of long multi-laned straight roads where as this is known to increase the likelihood of crashes. Furthermore it is only in the last year or two that they have begun to remove trees from the central reservation and install Armco barriers as opposed to concrete. - All outdated US concepts.

The signage system in the states is archaic in the extreme. What Thailand has is the remnants of the US system with bits and bobs of the EU system. The EU system is a far batter system replying in short reaction curve symbols.

However the positioning of signage and the corresponding layout of lanes etc. on Thai roads is simply not done correctly, if at all.

I thought bends were more likely to create accidents than straights, especially unmarked ones at the ends of long, safe straights. Plenty more accidents in the twisty bits of Highway 1 up north than on the mind-numbingly boring, straight bits of Highway 2. Armco barriers, or at least the local equivalents of them, have been a feature of the national highways of Thailand for a whole lot longer than 'in the last year'. Do you drive outside Bangkok at all? For the most part, Thailand relies on a central ditch as the main dividing feature of the central median, not many trees at all. I agree there's plenty of concrete dividers in Bangkok but it's the same in a whole lot of other countries and not just the old fashioned USA. I worked in Houston and New Orleans and have to admit that the only issues with the perfectly adequate, huge and clear signage was the average dolt behind the wheel with the brain also in cruise control suddenly realizing that his exit was coming up fast and braking and haring across 4 or 5 lanes of traffic to make the exit. Sorry but good signage doesn't make better drivers.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

In the EU road signage is positioned for maximum visibility and the town names are ordered re distance and positioned above the appropriate lane. The type of road is also signified by the color and type of the sign. Billboards etc. are illegal in the EU and trees and other obstacles are religiously removed. The positioning of signs should be calculated for visibility and reaction a little above the average speed for that piece of road - Thailand does none of this.

But Thailand DOES do this, especially on the fast-growing new motorway expansion.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

The result is that signs are often invisible, they are positioned to late for a safe reaction they are not coordinated with the lane markings etc.

See my earlier comment about the rush-hour commuters in Houston. Great big signs that get ignored. Meanwhile, the new motorway signage is really, really good, bright blue (so it's almost EU and not at all like those useless, dangerous green American ones) and well placed above lanes.

 

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

.... and of course there is the infamous U-turn....need I say more?

No, you have said quite enough, albeit most of it rubbish, but I do agree with you on the lethal u-turn. However, there are u-turns on many dual-carriageways and similar speed-rated highways in the UK and most people manage to use them safely and most trucks that are prohibited from using them obey the law and don't.

 

There is a definite issue with the total lack of enforcement of driving laws in LOS... but that's not what the OP is about at all.

Edited December 16, 2017 by NanLaew

[Airbagwill]

19 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

And not very succinct or accurate so here we go.

 

You are from the 'speed cameras are for revenue and do not improve road safety' camp maybe? You may also be talking of your experience in either the UK or Australia? Meanwhile, back in Thailand, the very effective network of speed cameras in Khon Kaen (for example) have been in place and working for maybe 4 years now. They are monitored, tickets are issued (in the post) and in my very frequent and lengthy passing through experience, the speed of traffic, especially on the long and congested straight bits of Mitrapharp north and south of town, is aa whole helluva lot slower AND SAFER than it was say 10-15 years ago.

 

Now you are back in Thailand, good. On the automatic, ticket-in-the-post system, there are no cops acting as 'judge and jury'. Moreover, in the event of a crash, and if they ever show up, the first thing the cops ascertain is if either or both (or all) cars involved have insurance. The greater number of drivers are insured these days and the cops lose interest rapidly unless one or other of the parties is uninsured. Then the cops pretend to be working in their best interests and obfuscate the otherwise standard operating procedures of who pays what to whom. Over 20 years ago when insurance was a novelty, the cops made loads of money brokering settlements between mutually uninsured parties. Those days are mostly long gone. As for your contention of Thai courts and police "seeing themselves as one" that's just plain nonsense... unless you mean that YOU see them as one. They are most assuredly not.

 

OK, if you say so. The US Army Cops of Engineers were involved primarily with building Highway 2. All 4 Thai national highways had their origins way before any Americans got involved in Vietnam and AFAIK, there were no warplanes based in Chiang Mai or Songkhla where Highway 1 and 4 exeunt respectively. However, the somewhat dated construction techniques were grandfathered into Thailand's own expansion and improvements but have been superceded with newer and better construction technologies, especially on newer motorways. 

 

I thought bends were more likely to create accidents than straights, especially unmarked ones at the ends of long, safe straights. Plenty more accidents in the twisty bits of Highway 1 up north than on the mind-numbingly boring, straight bits of Highway 2. Armco barriers, or at least the local equivalents of them, have been a feature of the national highways of Thailand for a whole lot longer than 'in the last year'. Do you drive outside Bangkok at all? For the most part, Thailand relies on a central ditch as the main dividing feature of the central median, not many trees at all. I agree there's plenty of concrete dividers in Bangkok but it's the same in a whole lot of other countries and not just the old fashioned USA. I worked in Houston and New Orleans and have to admit that the only issues with the perfectly adequate, huge and clear signage was the average dolt behind the wheel with the brain also in cruise control suddenly realizing that his exit was coming up fast and braking and haring across 4 or 5 lanes of traffic to make the exit. Sorry but good signage doesn't make better drivers.

 

But Thailand DOES do this, especially on the fast-growing new motorway expansion.

 

See my earlier comment about the rush-hour commuters in Houston. Great big signs that get ignored. Meanwhile, the new motorway signage is really, really good, bright blue (so it's almost EU and not at all like those useless, dangerous green American ones) and well placed above lanes.

 

No, you have said quite enough, albeit most of it rubbish, but I do agree with you on the lethal u-turn. However, there are u-turns on many dual-carriageways and similar speed-rated highways in the UK and most people manage to use them safely and most trucks that are prohibited from using them obey the law and don't.

 

There is a definite issue with the total lack of enforcement of driving laws in LOS... but that's not what the OP is about at all.

now you're just talking nonsense - I'm not engaging in pigeon chess with you.

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

now you're just talking nonsense - I'm not engaging in pigeon chess with you.

No problem, we can agree to disagree but it does appear that you don't drive much in Thailand. Well, not recently anyway.

[4MyEgo]

Me thinks me better give them my Ozzie drivers licence when I gets pulled over instead of my Thai one 

 

[amdy2206]

It would be so simple to copy a points system from the UK, Australia, Canada ..... etc rather than making their own up. But I suppose they always think they know better than established countries - face again!! Face will be the downfall of Thailand along with never admitting they are wrong or others know better. Also licences are ignored. You hace 6 points and no licence. Take a test then we will add them!! Farcical.

[wakeupplease]

It will take more that a few bar-codes and points system to get these boys off their asses, no money in the back pocket no back pocket get off chair. The sole reason every young Thai wants to be a member of the BIB.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, Thaimike370 said:

In a month 95% of drivers will be off the road.

If only...

Police will just make more money.

As Bruce Forsyth used to say: "points make prizes..."

 

[mikiea]

On 12/15/2017 at 5:28 AM, Smiley Face said:

Since so many Thai driver don't bother with a license anyway I don't see this as being a tremendous advantage.  Thailand still needs a real police force to enforce laws in the first place.  If anything, it will only serve to encourage larger bribes to the BIB to turn the other way.  Certainly Thai driving is a problem but lack of effective, honest policing is a worse issue since it lets the reckless Thai drivers go unchecked.

the pecker head driver on yaba or the sxit for brains bus or truck driver operating on 6 hrs sleep in the last 48 could care less about this new set of rules , it is toilet paper to them . take the fines out of the coppers hands , make them do what all policemen do all over the world ---ARREST BAD GUYS-----   make drunk drivers go to jail mandatory .  cars ,trucks , buses towed  and impounded with a hefty storage fee . make the pain of getting caught with a DUI hurt so much it will serve as a deterrent , pull license's  one year suspension mandatory no exceptions , make it hurt . in other words  be POLICE MEN  .

[rocketmankabin1]

Ha. They tried this a few years back. After a month or so, we never heard about any enforcement and the point system just disappeared.