Thailand Suspends All High-level Meetings With Singapore

[Martin]

I think you are right, 'lannarebirth'.

On another point, there has been criticism of "Singlish" that is totally opposite to my experience with it.

On my first visit to Singapore, a Swedish company, who wanted me to assess their equipment for the engineering college that we were setting up in Brunei, arranged for me to visit Ngee Ann Polytechnic, where I was able to ask the lab technicians if it gave them a lot of bother, and so on.

Seeing Ngee Ann Poly 'warts and all', I thought it was the finest 'technological sixthform college' that I had ever seen, or heard of. (Singapore Poly, which I also visited, ran it a close second).

So I moved to Ngee Ann when my contract in Brunei was finished.

In my first week in Ngee Ann (once I had installed 'lah firewalls' in my ear channels) I was most impressed by the functionality of the Singlish that my students spoke.

I phoned up our English Language Centre and asked for a course, or at least some bibliography, on it.

The ELC people were horrified, as their remit was to promote Queen's English.

But Singlish was better by far, in this internationalised day and age.

So functional ("Why you so like that?").

Sensible use of noun as verb, and verb as noun ("So I high-beamed him").

Maximum, and precise, communication from a quickly-learned, small-number-of-words vocabulary.

Some of my students were working their way through college by earning money as 'apartment agents'. They acted as intermediaries between two sets of older people without a common language, but who wished to move and had to strike a deal over payment for installations by incomer to outgoer.

I had one such who could operate adequately in Mandarin, Singlish, Hokkien, Cantonese, Teo Chew, Malay and Tamil.

(And when I led a group of them to trek for twenty days and study the various microhydroelectric installations at the villages along the Everest Trek, and then design a system for one of the highest villages, she picked up a useful amount of Nepali, toute suite.)

Well, maybe we'll just have to accept that one man's music is another man's cacophony.

[SamuiJens]

That rhetoric sure sounds like a military government to me. Could we be looking at another Burma? I have said in other posts that this is the first time in all the years I have lived here that I have been worried. The military throws out the constitution and deposes the democratically elected leader. I for one do not take this lightly.

Hmm, as much as I was in favor of getting rid of Toxin, the current admin is certainly out to stiffle any press that might be negative... hmmm, good point.

Another Burma? There is already one in the West. The people voted for a certain person, yet another person took the thrown. Oh, and the Patriot Act disallows people to talk bad about the government. :D

Well put Galong, I can't only agree!

[brazil]

interesting to note you are against any style of democracy in thailand

of course i am personal, as you have been personal in many of your armchair comments on this forum on those in power or loss of power without having any first hand experience of knowing such people.

in fact tv posters who are on thai tv will very much know thai generals as 2 tv stations are owned by the thai military

but as yet, you promoting fair government from military ranks, even though the thai military have countless corruptions remarks on its history, is very strange indeed

Edited January 17, 2007 by george

[beammeup]

I lived there for 2 years and I didnt see a lot of brain power. Everytime I here them speak there Singlish I get nausious, and freedom of the press? Dont make me laugh.

So in the two years you lived here you can now speak Thai fluently, reasonably, or just like the majority of farung who can order (but not correctly) a Beer Chiang?

That will put the level of brain power on record where Thais are much more fluent speaking English than the vast majority of farung who remain ignorant of the language of the country in which they live.

Oh and by the way nausious (sic) is spelled nauseous

I was talking about Singapore crow boy! I wouldn't expect the Thai's to speak fluent English as it isn't their national language.

[gbt71fa]

That rhetoric sure sounds like a military government to me. Could we be looking at another Burma? I have said in other posts that this is the first time in all the years I have lived here that I have been worried. The military throws out the constitution and deposes the democratically elected leader. I for one do not take this lightly.

Hmm, as much as I was in favor of getting rid of Toxin, the current admin is certainly out to stiffle any press that might be negative... hmmm, good point.

Another Burma? There is already one in the West. The people voted for a certain person, yet another person took the thrown. Oh, and the Patriot Act disallows people to talk bad about the government. :D

And the call Bush,Rumsfeld and Cheney "Great Americans" So much for FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't diss my country just because yours sucks. Uhm, the patriot act has nothing to do with freedom of speech you feeble-minded toads.

[beammeup]

The question is was this the most effective way to deal with Singapore on this issue? I don't think so. Lots of subtle ways they could have made a point with teeth without making themselves look like the bad guy.

I dunno, Pap. I think Thailand did right by this suspension action. Only the jellybabies like Canada would run and hide in the corner if another country did this to them. This is international news and Thailand has to show a don't mess with us image, especially now. I am really shifting the mental sands to figure out why Singapore is doing this. They don't usually interfere with other country's political biz. What's the benefit to them? A telecom/satellite tie? Anti-muslim connection? Money and power is involved here. Singapore is stuck on a little piece of land and depends on Malaysia for food, water, manpower. And you know who runs Malaysia. Don't know the situation well enough to connect the dots.

Where is our erudite TV political professor?

Hey Jet I agree with most of what you have said except the part about Canada being Jellybabies. Are you refering to the softwood lumber deal or what ??? I know we usually have a spinless government but we are a proud and strong people (who dont like to be insulted).

Cdn govt is so indecisive. Lumber deals aside (Emerson has balls), Canada takes more time than the UN to make decisions. I could file my nails to the quick and back before Canada made a decision on anything. And the decisions are mostly pansycake decisions. Don't battle me on this issue. I know. Hope you were not here during the tsunami.

If you are Canadian and your talking about the Gov, Ok I'll agree Thats why I left there 13 years ago. If you are not Canadian

[John K]

As much as I am very much opposed to any form of censorship I think many of you are missing a crucial point here.

This far as I have seen any limitation placed is specifically against Thaksin, his cronies, and others that would very willingly sabotage the new governments attempts to undo the damage done by them. Using a metaphor ‘you don’t walk on freshly seeded grass.’

Please don’t forget the bombs, and you must ask yourself what was the intent of them. The general consensus is it was to disrupt and sabotage the government. If the government was to flounder take a wild guess who comes back as the ‘I can man.’ Then watch the censorship along with propaganda. That make no mention at all of people disappearing as I am sure many of you can expect.

What you should be watching for is gradual reduction in censorship as the government because more established. If that does not happen then a concern is valid. So far the restrictions have been easing as the government gets a footing.

The reports of censorship are simply black or white with no shades of grey as they do not judge reason. For the moment this is a necessary evil to fight a greater evil. Chemotherapy is a poison to kill cancer cells but unfortunately it’s effects are not limited to just cancer cells, you must ask yourself is this very different. Once the body is strong enough on it’s own to fight the cancer, the chemotherapy ends.

Everything this government has done thus far has been attempts to undo what damage the previous government did. We can all expect some mistakes by them but the damage they are working on is rooted very deeply so you must look at things in the bigger picture and accept that not all medicine tastes good.

As far as blocking the Internet and attempts to force morality and other things not related to Thaksin, yes that practice must be stopped. It is the parents responsibility and not the governments to raise their children.

Edited January 17, 2007 by John K

[Martin]

This 'international incident' is hard to discuss, when the rules of the forum prevent us mentioning, never mind commenting on the major part of the way in which Thailand's national policies are decided.

I will try to stay 'in line'.

Singapore has a government that can be voted out, once every five years. But (as the Singaporeans themselves feel it should) it doesn't allow for constantly-running, probably ill-informed, criticism of everything it does.

I once, jokingly, on this website coined an oxymoron and called it "a liberal democracy of the Confucian variety".

But, being just allowed to choose your dictator every five years, stretches the word "democracy" too far, I believe. Once I read an article by a political science writer who made a case for it being called "psephocracy".

Bush and Blair have shown how authoritarian and undemocratic-in-spirit the US and UK systems are by steamrollering their governments into the Iraq misadventure.

In view of what I must not mention, I describe Thailand's system as a 'constitutional (shush)y'.

Back in post #120, 'pjalittle' said:

"Thailand already had a constitution before Thaksin was taken down. That same constitution had been, by law, been approved by the King. A military junta was not the only means of addressing what was perceived to be a problem. That's not how a democracy is supposed to work.

So it's no wonder that now you're dealing with censorship and have a bunch of old soldiers playing at running a country. There's your real tragedy, it's not Thaksin."

The problem that he mentions was that the last Constitution had turned out pretty disastrously. For 74 years, there has been effort after effort to get one that would work. But, for many reasons, mostly cultural, it has been to no avail. Thaksin had immediately seen how to 'work the system' to get himself the role of governmental dictator, with landslide victories. And proved, after a while, to be an unnacceptable one.

So, having first turned to Thaksin, it later became appropriate to turn on him.

It could be argued that the coup was exactly how a constitutional (shush)y is supposed to work.

The phrase 'bunch of old soldiers' is factually correct, but liable to bring a wrong image to mind amongst us western-centrics to whom soldiers are military specialists unversed in politics.

In Thailand, a military career is not just about preparing to fight wars in other countries, or to throw back invaders. It is also about training to 'tread the corridors of power' of civilian life, politics and business, if that becomes necessary.

So the present government is not people 'playing'. They are seriously running the country on lines that, I expect, they will have discussed in their training years.

Again, arguably, just how a constitutional (shush)y is supposed to work.

Having seen the almost-universal acclaim with which the CNS taking power (and apologising for the inconvenience!!!) was greeted, I think they have the legitimacy to govern in Thailand's system, morally as well as practically.

Of course, when the 'big unmentionable event that cannot never come' happens, there will be the crisis that is part-and-parcel of this method of running a country. It may go well or badly, quickly or be protracted.

Western nations have gone to great lengths to set up systems that avoid that crisis, but that is because westerners are culturally very different to Thai nationals. IMO, not better, not worse, just different.

[OlRedEyes]

The reports of censorship are simply black or white with no shades of grey as they do not judge reason. For the moment this is a necessary evil to fight a greater evil. Chemotherapy is a poison to kill cancer cells but unfortunately it’s effects are not limited to just cancer cells, you must ask yourself is this very different. Once the body is strong enough on it’s own to fight the cancer, the chemotherapy ends.

As far as blocking the Internet and attempts to force morality and other things not related to Thaksin, yes that practice must be stopped. It is the parents responsibility and not the governments to raise their children.

You contradict yourself a bit there I think. The chemotherapy theory, which does sound nice, should then be extended to the cancer in the children (internet, morality etc) till they are strong enough as adults by the same reasoning. Problem is it can never be stopped once started because new generations spring up. Same with the current political situation. There will inevitable be new 'threats'. 'Addiction' follows.

Edited January 17, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[beammeup]

As much as I am very much opposed to any form of censorship I think many of you are missing a crucial point here.

This far as I have seen any limitation placed is specifically against Thaksin, his cronies, and others that would very willingly sabotage the new governments attempts to undo the damage done by them. Using a metaphor ‘you don’t walk on freshly seeded grass.’

Please don’t forget the bombs, and you must ask yourself what was the intent of them. The general consensus is it was to disrupt and sabotage the government. If the government was to flounder take a wild guess who comes back as the ‘I can man.’ Then watch the censorship along with propaganda. That make no mention at all of people disappearing as I am sure many of you can expect.

What you should be watching for is gradual reduction in censorship as the government because more established. If that does not happen then a concern is valid. So far the restrictions have been easing as the government gets a footing.

The reports of censorship are simply black or white with no shades of grey as they do not judge reason. For the moment this is a necessary evil to fight a greater evil. Chemotherapy is a poison to kill cancer cells but unfortunately it’s effects are not limited to just cancer cells, you must ask yourself is this very different. Once the body is strong enough on it’s own to fight the cancer, the chemotherapy ends.

Everything this government has done thus far has been attempts to undo what damage the previous government did. We can all expect some mistakes by them but the damage they are working on is rooted very deeply so you must look at things in the bigger picture and accept that not all medicine tastes good.

As far as blocking the Internet and attempts to force morality and other things not related to Thaksin, yes that practice must be stopped. It is the parents responsibility and not the governments to raise their children.

John I don't always agree with your posts but that was very well put!

[tracer]

How dare the institutions/people in Singapore do what they did. Shame on them! Thailand is the center of the universe, why won't they recognize this! I mean what is Singapore these days? A cheap copy of Bangkok, not?

Thailand rules!

Be honest, you want that crook back?? He has enough money to destabilise about any country in this area.

Donot say he hasnt as whats visible is likely 1% of what he salted away...

Ofcourse there is no way Thailand can enforce it but Singapore has to realise that he is out. Ie a tourist.

[beammeup]

The reports of censorship are simply black or white with no shades of grey as they do not judge reason. For the moment this is a necessary evil to fight a greater evil. Chemotherapy is a poison to kill cancer cells but unfortunately it’s effects are not limited to just cancer cells, you must ask yourself is this very different. Once the body is strong enough on it’s own to fight the cancer, the chemotherapy ends.

As far as blocking the Internet and attempts to force morality and other things not related to Thaksin, yes that practice must be stopped. It is the parents responsibility and not the governments to raise their children.

You contradict yourself a bit there I think. The chemotherapy theory, which does sound nice, should then be extended to the cancer in the children (internet, morality etc) till they are strong enough as adults by the same reasoning. Problem is it can never be stopped once started because new generations spring up. Same with the current political situation. There will inevitable be new 'threats'. 'Addiction' follows.

The cancer is Thaksin and his cronies. The Thai people deserve to be rid of these gangsters.

[Plus]

interesting to note you are against any style of democracy in thailand

Reject ANY style means "no democracy at all". Not the same as rejecting semi democracy

of course i am personal, as you have been personal in many of your armchair comments on this forum on those in power or loss of power without having any first hand experience of knowing such people.

Who are was personal with? Thaksin?

in fact tv posters who are on thai tv will very much know thai generals as 2 tv stations are owned by the thai military

I'm not sure what you mean. We have four TV sets in our house, I know all the generals very much.

but as yet, you promoting fair government from military ranks, even though the thai military have countless corruptions remarks on its history, is very strange indeed

Not the ones currently at the top. Joining the military is a career move. Thaksin didn't marry general's daugher just for looks.

The government is run by western edicated beaurocrats, not by the army, btw.

[blam]

I think all of us that have lived in Thailand long enough, say 15 years or more, have watched a wonderfully kind and polite little country turn itself into a self absorbed 3rd world low class entity. (Another topic altogether.)

That said. Singapore: 'middle class society' driven, well educated, and well heeled; facing this 3rd world military dictatorship slap in the face, must be chuckling with smiling eyes (into their oversize sleeves) in that fine old ancient Khoo Clan fashion.

Now, here in Thailand, we have a military junta taking offense of statements made by the coup d'etat ousted former Prime Minister. Is he going to say that all the military guys were right? No, but he will try to cover his butt with excuses of why the Sing investment moneys went out the door into the realm of the Lost Boys "Never Never Land".

If the ruling junta, really a dictatorship if you will, is as clean as they make themselves out to be, why are they afraid of Taksin's criticism? Taksin is a guy that blabs himself into massive troubles all the time, why are the Thais being so sensitive? His wife is the real string puller, and the reason why Taksin is where he is today!

Is the world of internal dominance and dictatorship really the way of the future in Thailand? I think yes. Things are going to get worse my brothers, Thailand is going down the toilet. This 'firing over the bow' of Singapore is the clearest indication of it. History is going to frown on it. The future is not going to forgive it.

Thailand has truly become nothing more than a 3rd world military dictatorship. Let's call a spade a spade. This swat at Singapore was a little mistake, and the mistakes are going to get larger and even more emboldened. Still they are mistakes nonetheless. An indicator of things to come?

I am in favor of the junta setting up an election committee to stop vote buying, then sponsoring real 'free' elections, (without the military rulers in power having the chance to run for office.) Then the junta stepping out of the democratic election process altogether.

My fear is that the dictatorial power will become so addictive and corruptive, that Thailand will become very much like Burma. Think now, how long before the western world boycotts Thai products and opens the tap for Southern Chinese valley rice and grain products ? Not long my friends, not long. The days of the great "Chuan Leekpai/Bill Clinton/Thailand/Western World" friendships are long gone. Singapore knows this all too well. They are not amused, but laughing none the less. Nice going dictators.

Thailand loses this round, and I am afraid it is the beginning of a nasty downtrend and endless spiral of negative results.

Old and in the way in Phuket.

[John K]

The reports of censorship are simply black or white with no shades of grey as they do not judge reason. For the moment this is a necessary evil to fight a greater evil. Chemotherapy is a poison to kill cancer cells but unfortunately it’s effects are not limited to just cancer cells, you must ask yourself is this very different. Once the body is strong enough on it’s own to fight the cancer, the chemotherapy ends.

As far as blocking the Internet and attempts to force morality and other things not related to Thaksin, yes that practice must be stopped. It is the parents responsibility and not the governments to raise their children.

You contradict yourself a bit there I think. The chemotherapy theory, which does sound nice, should then be extended to the cancer in the children (internet, morality etc) till they are strong enough as adults by the same reasoning. Problem is it can never be stopped once started because new generations spring up. Same with the current political situation. There will inevitable be new 'threats'. 'Addiction' follows.

I wanted to point out that the government dealing with Thaksin is at the right level. Thaksin and the government are heavyweights. The government coming down on lightweights like children is wrong. The proper thing to do is not go after the children but give the parents the tools to govern their own families. The fact that effective software is available to block sites for children, the Thai government should make it freely available to parents who wish to use it.

Blocking the Internet selectively that started under Thaksin has similarities of the book burnings of the 1930's in Germany. Selectively limiting content simply amounts to subtle propaganda. The reason many are opposed to this is because we recognize it is of a controlling nature. They not only block children but mature educated adults too.

[george]

Thread closed pending moderation issues.

/Admin