Keep me safe! - Why Road safety in Thailand cannot improve.

[tgeezer]

"Why not take actual accidents and analyse them?"
This is the 5th E. - Evaluation.
.
Thailand has no proper comprehensive analysis of crashes and no proper full set of statistics, so like so many people on this thread they don't have a realistic perspective v e of what is actually happening on Thai roads
 

I am advocating involving the whole population of drivers in the process, the 5th Evaluation would be drivers evaluating themselves.
Take the news report today of the pickup with passengers loose in the frieght compartment rear-ended by a truck.
The causes are obvious;
1. The pickup was not in the left most lane.
2 The pickup changed lanes without ensuring that his path was clear.
3 As a result of 1 the truck was undertaking.

All three things are wrong but frequently encountered here.
Education, probably one of the first Es in your list, is what I am advocating.


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[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

 

I am advocating involving the whole population of drivers in the process, the 5th Evaluation would be drivers evaluating themselves.
Take the news report today of the pickup with passengers loose in the frieght compartment rear-ended by a truck.
The causes are obvious;
1. The pickup was not in the left most lane.
2 The pickup changed lanes without ensuring that his path was clear.
3 As a result of 1 the truck was undertaking.

All three things are wrong but frequently encountered here.
Education, probably one of the first Es in your list, is what I am advocating.


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Again you are resorting to driving and anecdote instead of addressing the problem in terms of road safety. there are about 37million registered vehicles in Thailand mostly 2 wheeled, less than a 1/5th are pickups and 80% of those killed are on 2 or 3 wheels and you look at one crash for a solution?

[Airbagwill]

On 1/1/2018 at 5:47 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, but that's a nonsense.

 

From google dictionary

1.

an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

 

Also I scorn your attempt to compare road accident rates with the type of government, which appears to be a thinly veiled attack on the present government of LOS.

 

In the country I come from, the populace drives appallingly, yet the death rate is very low, but far as I can see purely by luck as it should be astronomical. I just  avoided certain death by inches twice within half an hour on one unfortunate trip ( from idiots that can't drive properly ). 

 

I suppose in the end though, it comes down to whether we want to live in a nanny state with all the horrors of that, or a country with sanuk ( something extremely lacking in my home country ) and accept that it has consequences that may not be pleasant.

 

I don't know why you choose to live in LOS, but I choose it for the sanuk.

 

as you don't understand the premise it is impossible f you to comment on the topic.

 

[Airbagwill]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:57 PM, sirineou said:

 I hate to disagree but there are two ways to improve traffic safety, or any other safety  (one of the hats I wear at work , is Site Safety Manager " 

Active and Reactive   .

The transportation system as with any other system has several components .

Input: what you hope to achieve

Process: how you achieve the input  (Active)

Output: result as close as possible to input but diminished by unforeseen consequences 

Monitoring: how close is your input to the process

Adjustment: changes to process to limit unforeseen consequences and achieve  input/output parity  (reastive)

Unforeseen consequences :   Shit happens LOL

 

The Thai traffic system is a work in progres , and many adjustments need to, and are being made . Some will argue not enough. 

Punishment for not adhering to the rules and regulations governing the process part of the system   are part of the adjustment portion of the system, and since the system is not done adjusting, you are not "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted" because the horse has not bolted yet ,but is still with in the system .  Even punishing a horse that is out of the system stands as a deterrent to those still in the system. 

There are many other ways to adjust behaviour,,  IMO, punishment ranks Up there in effectiveness .

 

How are you disagreeing?

[Airbagwill]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:05 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO in the 70s the average US consumer car was a pile of goat vomit. The reduced death rate could be put down simply to better construction incorporating safety features. I don't have any clue as to France though.

In both countries it could ( though that is a supposition ) be as simple as too many cars reducing the average speed. It's hard to die in a traffic jam.

Of more significance would be the accident rate and not the death rate.

 

Again you are referring to E for engineering. Cars are much safer now than 40 years ago. However Thailand has a preponderance for pickups, the least safe private vehivles and low safety spec sedans.

Both countries have redesigned roads as well....a major undertaking.

You also need to be aware that the death rate for 4 wheeled vehiclesinThiland is about the same as the USA.

The USA is currently struggling with the highest death rate in the Western world.

[Airbagwill]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Had a few of those near death experiences myself. The only thing I can see that will cut the rate is to widen the roads so central barriers can be used, but obviously too expensive in anything but the long term.

However, the greatest risk I faced when driving in the rural areas was in killing a few kids on a m'bike pulling out in front of me without looking and getting beaten to death by the villagers. For that reason I preferred the hours between 1am and 5am when they were mostly asleep and before dawn reduced visibility.

 

In the end though, the only way to be safe on Thailand's roads is not to drive on them. I like the train. I also like the government buses if there is no train.

 

 

E for engineering...one of the central aims of road safety is to separate different flows of traffic.

Central reservations in Thailand however are mostly severely lacking. Firstly there needs to Armco barriers instead of concrete, ditches or nothing....and NO TREES.

I have noticed in some areas that this is changing for the better.

It also helps to have clearly marked lanes..in WHITE that Re maintained and don't disappear when it is dark or raining.

Again driving is not the same across safety.

And the plural of anecdote is not data.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:09 AM, Enoon said:

 

Notionally it's about road safety, but actually it's about the difference between cultures.

 

No need for essays, it's all been done, there's plenty of literature.

 

Start on the inside and work your way out, it's a lot quicker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any talk of culture is basically on VERY thin ice as it is a word used without definition or understanding.

Road safety is a  science - it really doesn't matter where you are in the world, the earth isn't flat, the same applies to road safety.

 

 

Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint.

[geronimo]

Good post!

 

I think the very fact that anything is possible on Thai roads makes for an interesting experience every time you get behind the wheel ....

[geronimo]

On 1/5/2018 at 9:35 AM, Airbagwill said:

Any talk of culture is basically on VERY thin ice as it is a word used without definition or understanding.

Road safety is a  science - it really doesn't matter where you are in the world, the earth isn't flat, the same applies to road safety.

 

 

Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint.

2

Not that I am one of them, but there are quite a few people who seem to think our planet, is in fact, flat!

[Airbagwill]

38 minutes ago, geronimo said:

Not that I am one of them, but there are quite a few people who seem to think our planet, is in fact, flat!

A lot of people thinking something doesn't alter the reality. Never has, never will.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, Airbagwill said:

as you don't understand the premise it is impossible f you to comment on the topic.

 

Being as it's a public forum, I can participate without your approval, and while I understand the premise I don't have to believe in it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:56 PM, Airbagwill said:

E for engineering...one of the central aims of road safety is to separate different flows of traffic.

Central reservations in Thailand however are mostly severely lacking. Firstly there needs to Armco barriers instead of concrete, ditches or nothing....and NO TREES.

I have noticed in some areas that this is changing for the better.

It also helps to have clearly marked lanes..in WHITE that Re maintained and don't disappear when it is dark or raining.

Again driving is not the same across safety.

And the plural of anecdote is not data.

No argument regarding the trees which should all be cut down on central reservations, but who do you suggest is going to pay for all that Armco?

In a perfect world and all that, but In LOS one needs to come up with an affordable solution.

[lvr181]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:35 PM, Airbagwill said:

Any talk of culture is basically on VERY thin ice as it is a word used without definition or understanding.

Road safety is a  science - it really doesn't matter where you are in the world, the earth isn't flat, the same applies to road safety.

 

 

Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint.

"Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint."

 

OMG, how did you arrive at that conclusion? No basis in fact so I guess you thought this one up to support your own views! 

 

And a definition of culture: 

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

"Afro-Caribbean culture" et al

synonyms:

Civilization, society, way of life, lifestyle etc

 

Please do not try to hoodwink us with your "without definition or understanding".

Edited January 8, 2018 by lvr181
Additional comment

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:44 AM, geronimo said:

Good post!

 

I think the very fact that anything is possible on Thai roads makes for an interesting experience every time you get behind the wheel ....

If gambling was permitted in LOS, one could bet on actually reaching the destination unscathed .

[tgeezer]

"Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint."

 

OMG, how did you arrive at that conclusion? No basis in fact so I guess you thought this one up to support your own views! 

 

And a definition of culture: 

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. "Afro-Caribbean culture" et al

synonyms:

Civilization, society, way of life, lifestyle etc

 

Please do not try to hoodwink us with your "without definition or understanding".

Well said, culture is simply the curent state of development of every aspect of the lives of a group of people. To say that Thai culture does not consider that two wheeled vehicles are road traffic, is not in the least racist.

The OP is schooled in analysis of figures as the answer to road safety which might or might not be correct depending on what the statistics were based on. I would like to ask the OP, if anecdotes of accidents where death has occured combined with other anecdotes of similar accidents is not considered a good basis for compiling figures where do the figures come from?

 

 

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[lvr181]

23 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Well said, culture is simply the curent state of development of every aspect of the lives of a group of people. To say that Thai culture does not consider that two wheeled vehicles are road traffic, is not in the least racist.

The OP is schooled in analysis of figures as the answer to road safety which might or might not be correct depending on what the statistics were based on. I would like to ask the OP, if anecdotes of accidents where death has occured combined with other anecdotes of similar accidents is not considered a good basis for compiling figures where do the figures come from?

 

 

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Statistics?  Hmmm...........that's a worry.

 

British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."   

[tgeezer]

Figures lie and liars figue.


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[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No argument regarding the trees which should all be cut down on central reservations, but who do you suggest is going to pay for all that Armco?

In a perfect world and all that, but In LOS one needs to come up with an affordable solution.

They are as we speak fitting Armco and it ain't that expensive...in fact baht per death it's really good value.

Concrete may seem cheaper at first but it requires heavy moving equipment and isn't so easy to repair and in most circumstances is less effective.

Road deaths in Thailand represent a loss of about 5% of GDP....so any expense by the government will in the end pay for itself.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, lvr181 said:

Statistics?  Hmmm...........that's a worry.

 

British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."   

That was "attributed" to BD by Mark Twain. It of course is intended as a salutary warning to those - especially politicians who try to use them as FACT(see our friend above). Stats are not facts nor are they even accurate they are aids to forming and understanding once analysed. V. WHO stats paper.

[Airbagwill]

“Culture” is no excuse! -  I'm sorry but I don't think people have the vaguest idea what they mean by culture - it just sounds/looks good in a discussion - in the first place culture isn't static or fixed, it is used frequently as a substitute for racism or national stereotyping without any regard to its true meaning. It's used by the bootless and unhorsed in place of a real discussion. - If you really want to understand the culture of road behaviour in Thailand, then pretend you are on a boat on a river and everything falls into place.

 

[Airbagwill]

The problem is that most discussions on road safety in Thailand and on this forum are not based on reason and logic but on anecdote and personal prejudices...it is a question of perception versus reality, but most people are completely unaware o fit.

 

her are my 20 home truths about the discussion of road safety......and NO! it isn't about driving in Thailand!, it's about perceptions and methods of discussion of road safety.....

 

 

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Well said, culture is simply the curent state of development of every aspect of the lives of a group of people. To say that Thai culture does not consider that two wheeled vehicles are road traffic, is not in the least racist.

The OP is schooled in analysis of figures as the answer to road safety which might or might not be correct depending on what the statistics were based on. I would like to ask the OP, if anecdotes of accidents where death has occured combined with other anecdotes of similar accidents is not considered a good basis for compiling figures where do the figures come from?

 

 

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You're confusing culture with sweeping generalisations a tool that panders to prejudice.

[thaibry]

..should be de-husked by the time you get there.

"Again, the challenge is to convince Thai institutions that there are some valuable assets that could be tapped to improve the situation with little or no cost to the government.  "
 
Yes.. road safety in every country has been brought about by state investment and involvement.
All successful countries have implemented the 5 Es of road safety.
Education, Enforcement, Engineering, Emergency and Evaluation. You can't have one without the others.
However Thailand, as an industrialising country, needs to be aware that the current situation is costing the nation trillions of baht and can bring about similar changes to a country that a full scale war does.
Corruption, graft and nepotism have had a terrible effect....it has meant that misinformed, unqualified and incompetent people have ended up in high-ranking policy making jobs and the implementation of an effective road safety policy (which Thailand has available) and the construction of proper roads has been impaired by inappropriate diversion of allotted funds.
In fact one really good way of assessing how rife corruption is in a country is to look at the roads....The worse the design and shorter the lifespan before repairs is inversely proportional to the amount of corruption.
 

"Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint."
 
OMG, how did you arrive at that conclusion? No basis in fact so I guess you thought this one up to support your own views! 
 
And a definition of culture: 
the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. "Afro-Caribbean culture" et al

synonyms:

Civilization, society, way of life, lifestyle etc
 
Please do not try to hoodwink us with your "without definition or understanding".

I wonder what the producers of self-driving cars would have to change to enable their cars to work in Thailand?

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[thaibry]

I wonder what the producers of self-driving cars would have to change to enable their cars to work in Thailand?

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[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Well said, culture is simply the curent state of development of every aspect of the lives of a group of people. To say that Thai culture does not consider that two wheeled vehicles are road traffic, is not in the least racist.

The OP is schooled in analysis of figures as the answer to road safety which might or might not be correct depending on what the statistics were based on. I would like to ask the OP, if anecdotes of accidents where death has occured combined with other anecdotes of similar accidents is not considered a good basis for compiling figures where do the figures come from?

 

 

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Seriously? I posted a list of where the stats came from and there is a document by WHO that discusses how their stats are compiled too....Surely if you want to talk directly should find out about the basics...you also appear a bit shakedown what may or may not qualify as anecdotal. I think you needto clear some basics up in your own mind first?

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, thaibry said:

I wonder what the producers of self-driving cars would have to change to enable their cars to work in Thailand?

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Look at the 5 Es!

[Airbagwill]

Figures......I've been reading loads of road safety stats, figures and stuff for years and in the last 17 years in particular about Thailand.
I've said this on Thaivisa many times before, and it seems pretty obvious to me that someone who keeps asking for figures either doesn't have an argument or doesn't understand the argument. ed, related to reality and conclusions drawn. If you are so fond of figures why not read them for your self.....you will find them sadly rewarding in supply of any counter argument.....that needs to come from the interpreter.
Most of the arguments and conclusions I've put forward are taken from those far more experienced than I...and many of them don't even require figures they just need a little thought. 
For example, 
Do you accept the basic concept of the 5 Es?
Do you accept that road, traffic and vehicle engineering are part of road safety?
Do you accept that first responders such as police and emergency services are under-trained and inadequately equipped to deal with the road safety situation in Thailand?
Do you realise that driving and road safety are not one and the same?
Do you agree that lack of road safety costs a nation money?
None of these issues need detailed figures to prove them, simple logic and you can work it out for yourself. The basic concepts of road safety are self evident and yet somehow people get the idea that all these arguments will collapse if only one set of figures can be "proved wrong" a dodgy concept at best when all you can really hope for is inaccuracy.
I am no expert and in fact think that is a ridiculous concept...It is the message not the messenger that is for discussion.
The concepts I posit are generally accepted worldwide by authorities and safety organisations as that is where they come from. ....and furthermore, they have been demonstrated to be effective. So I come to this discussion reasonably well versed in both theory and practice. However I would suggest that it is self evident that some have come to this debate sorely misinformed and with gross misapprehensions and are therefore illequiped to put forward a valid argument or opinion on the topic. Surely if you are going to comment, it is up to you to inform yourself on the topic first? But instead some people throw in complete nonsense as if in some Dunning Kruger style  haze they are determined to put forward some gainsaying based on nape of the neck reactions, forgetting that just because they can drive, it doesn't qualify them as experts on road safety. The result is a series of illogical, fallacious and untenable postulations.
To respond to such assertions requires a language that is alien to reason and logic and one that I don't speak.

[Airbagwill]

5 hours ago, lvr181 said:

"Culture is used as a substitute for analysis and as a get out term by those with inherently racist views as a way of givng some cloaked resctability to what is basically a racist viewpoint."

 

OMG, how did you arrive at that conclusion? No basis in fact so I guess you thought this one up to support your own views! 

 

And a definition of culture: 

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

"Afro-Caribbean culture" et al

synonyms:

Civilization, society, way of life, lifestyle etc

 

Please do not try to hoodwink us with your "without definition or understanding".

So because you've heard the phrase"afro-carribean culture" you think you understand and can define culture?.....

PS I can assure you I'm not trying to hoodwink anyone, au contraire I'm attempting to remove the hoods that are blinkering your understanding.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Airbagwill

[lvr181]

7 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

So because you've heard the phrase"afro-carribean culture" you think you understand and can define culture?.....

PS I can assure you I'm not trying to hoodwink anyone, au contraire I'm attempting to remove the hoods that are blinkering your understanding.

Do you not understand 'et al'? "afro-carribean culture" was merely an example of many. DO NOT take it out of context!

 

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by lvr181
Typo correction

[tgeezer]

You're confusing culture with sweeping generalisations a tool that panders to prejudice.

I agree with you that culture is a generalisation and that might lead to predudice but that is not always a bad thing.
“It is part of Thai culture to be very tolerant”. Is a sweeping generalisation but I would make it because I can cite incidents which support my assertion. It isn’t scientific or backed by any statistics that I know of, but no less valid in a discussion about leniency in Thai courts.

Similarly when I say that “It is part of Thai culture to ignore the rules of the road” it would seem to me to support an assertion that “Road safety cannot improve” .
However this is your topic and I understand that since “road safety is not about driving” I have to agree that I am not qualified comment.





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