5 Years In Los And Still Don't Understand . .

[SamuiJens]

You are a bloody hard lot. The girl is only sixteen, maybe really nice girl, saw a lot of money in American house, and maybe though she will help her parents or grandparents.

Stupid mistake, I bet when you were sixteen you made few. Would be much better to sit the girl down, had a long talk to find out why she did it. After all nobody really lost anything, cheques are back with the owner. Like this, the family ruined this girl life and future, but they thing they done the right thing. The money paid to her is insignificant.All this anger about nothing much.

I agree in this situation, that to give another a chance is called for, since most teens are tempted to steal from someone or someplace, since things are put right in there face, and having a poor family makes it harder not to take, thinking that the person/place have plenty of Baht, and can afford to "loose" a bit. But it's still not to completly be forgotten, BUT in this instance a warning would be the right thing to do IMHO.

[lingling]

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

So then you need to remind them of that. Again, had this girl stolen from your wife's grandmother or something like that, I am confident that the situation would be different. If they make you pay then you are really being taken for a ride. You need to show some balls and have a serious talk with your wife.

[Robski]

Bl00dy heck mate what a situation. at the end of the day you have to live with them, they must know your position so let it lay for a while and then offer to negotiate along the lines of Terry 57's idea, you can't beat them play them at their own game, if you can save the day and get repaid your on a winner with a big lesson learned by you and also by the locals. chin up have a cool one and think it over.

Edited January 17, 2007 by Robski

[Boo]

Personally I would refuse to pay the money for the family & explain to your wife why, she in turn can explain that although you appriciate their cultural reasons for offering the girl the money, as a farang it is not in your culture to reward theivery & therefore feel they should respect your cultural reasons for not stumping up the cash

Seriously though, if the family have chosen to ignore the theft & disrespect this girl has shown by firstly stealing the money & then by not apologising, then they can come up with the cash for her face saving themselves.

Stand your ground Simon, don't be the families ATM They offered the money without asking if you would pay it & have just expected your wife to stump up the cash, so there is some serious issues already IMO about their respect levels for you.

[Mid]

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

Simon

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is cancelled. How long would a marraige between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

Your thinking about paying compensation to a family for lose of face caused by their daughter

[lingling]

... there is some serious issues already IMO about their respect levels for you.

Exactly. It appears that he gets the responsibilities but not the influence of the 'head of family'. Time to put the foot down and draw some borders.

[simon43]

Boo, I think actually they have a very high respect for me, (from my many visits to them etc etc).

But it seems that when face is involved, that is the single most important issue and monetary compensation is offered without first considering where the money is going to come from. Having offered this and it having been accepted, my wife's family has dug themselves a hole with no way out unless 'Khun Simon' can help them out.

I think this attitude of 'speak before putting brain into gear' is rather commonplace with Thai people......

[lingling]

Boo, I think actually they have a very high respect for me, (from my many visits to them etc etc).

But it seems that when face is involved, that is the single most important issue and monetary compensation is offered without first considering where the money is going to come from. Having offered this and it having been accepted, my wife's family has dug themselves a hole with no way out unless 'Khun Simon' can help them out.

I think this attitude of 'speak before putting brain into gear' is rather commonplace with Thai people......

In many Thai families one or a couple of persons will have a 'head of family' role. This includes having input in many important issues, but also having to take responsibility for others. It looks to me like they are dumping the responsibilities on you without letting you have any influence on how things are handled. If you were not asked for your opinion on how to deal with this matter then you should not be expected to take any responsibility (i.e. pay).

They probably respect your money but not you. Again, you need to have a serious talk with your wife.

[bkkmadness]

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is cancelled. How long would a marraige between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

I disagree this is an example of the difference between Asian and Western cultures, and I'm sure many Asians would agree with the consensus here, the theft was wrong so why should she get the money.

I'm sitting here with an Asian friend and he's surprised the family is even asking money for the daughter even though she is has been caught stealing. He said they should be too disgraced to be asking for anything and if he was in the same situation he would be telling them they are getting nothing since the 'theif is in their family'.

I think it's an easy escape to say this is an Asian thing, I think you should be looking closer to home to find the problem because this just doesn't sit right. I assume most people in the village know you are pretty wealthy and I guess that makes you and your family a target for people trying to make a quick buck. Would it be so surprising to think they might be trying it on with your family knowing that at the end of the day the money will be sent up by you if enough pressure is applied? Are you are all the money is going to the girl's family, nobodys taking a little for themself on your side of the family are they? They seemed to have agreed to this quite easily.

Is there really a standard compensation amount for weddings being called off because the bride to be was found out to be of 'bad character' for whatever reason?

[simon43]

bkkmadness - It looks 'genuine' to me. The girl's parents travelled from Isaan down to Phuket with the stolen cheques to discuss the matter with my wife. My wife is actually the person saying that the marriage is cancelled. (She is physically very small but definitely the boss of the family). So this cancellation is a big issue for the girl's parents etc.

But it would have been rather nice of the parents to 'wai' me when they visited my wife. They waied her very respectfully but ignored me

Simon

Anyway - can't really add much more here. I think a Beer Lao or two is the best option right now...

[george]

Can't they put some gold in the pon shop and get some cash? Or you Simon lend them the money after they have signed a loan agreement and given you a land title as security.

[bkkmadness]

Boo, I think actually they have a very high respect for me, (from my many visits to them etc etc).

But it seems that when face is involved, that is the single most important issue and monetary compensation is offered without first considering where the money is going to come from. Having offered this and it having been accepted, my wife's family has dug themselves a hole with no way out unless 'Khun Simon' can help them out.

I think this attitude of 'speak before putting brain into gear' is rather commonplace with Thai people......

Face is also used as the biggest excuse to scam money out of a farang as well who put it down to a cultural difference.

I disagree with your last statement, don't under estimate the Thai brain, lets face it they almost had a 1000 dollars of the American, and they are close I reckon to getting almost that amount again from you.

[lingling]

But it would have been rather nice of the parents to 'wai' me when they visited my wife. They waied her very respectfully but ignored me

And you wife did not react to this? They disrespect you in your own house and your wife lets them get away with it?

[lannarebirth]

But it would have been rather nice of the parents to 'wai' me when they visited my wife. They waied her very respectfully but ignored me

And you wife did not react to this? They disrespect you in your own house and your wife lets them get away with it?

It sounds like they were just following the wifes example.

[simon43]

Lingling, you post some good questions/comments! I certainly need to speak with my wife tomorrow, (she is visiting one of our staff who head-butted a car today whilst out riding his motorbike (no helmet). I won't even mention who paid the hospital bill . . .

Simon

[bkkmadness]

bkkmadness - It looks 'genuine' to me. The girl's parents travelled from Isaan down to Phuket with the stolen cheques to discuss the matter with my wife. My wife is actually the person saying that the marriage is cancelled. (She is physically very small but definitely the boss of the family). So this cancellation is a big issue for the girl's parents etc.

But it would have been rather nice of the parents to 'wai' me when they visited my wife. They waied her very respectfully but ignored me

So what they travelled from Issan down to Phuket, its not the end of the earth is it? How long did that take them if they drove, couple of days? Well worth it for the promise of 30 K from you.

I guess your wife as boss of the family must have been the one that agreed to paying them the money?

[elsie]

I disagree this is an example of the difference between Asian and Western cultures, and I'm sure many Asians would agree with the consensus here, the theft was wrong so why should she get the money.

Seconded.

I'm 100% Asian, and I fail to see why the girl should get any "compensation". Stealing is wrong. End of story. If I were the girl, my parents would have been so embarrassed beyond belief, and would have understood why the wedding was cancelled.

[rafval]

maybe she thought they were left as a tip

Last week, my wife's sister took an American man to visit her family in Isaan.

During that visit, someone stole $1,000 of travellers cheques from this guy....

After investigation, the cheques were found in the possession of a 16 year old family friend who had been cleaning the room.

This girl was due to 'marry' the 18 year old son of my wife's sister. She thought the cheques were 'real' money.

After family discussions, it was agreed that the marriage could not go ahead.

My wife's family has agreed to pay this 'thief' 20,000 baht and 1 baht of gold in compensation for the cancelled wedding.

Now . . . how can compensating this thief ever be right??????

What would you have done? (I told my wife in no uncertain terms that this girl should be paying my wife's family compensation for the shame brought upon them by this theft taking place in her mother's house...)

What do you think??

Simon

[YaiJung]

I find it to be hugely disrespectful on the part of your wife and her family to try to pressure u into paying for something that u had absolutely nothing to do with. I see way too much of this nonsense over here and I cringed when I read your post. If you don't put your foot down now and refuse the money your marraige is doomed. Sorry to say, but it sounds like it is already. To give them even one baht will just start the wheels turning in their heads.

I've been there, done that, and can say that if u want to retain your dignity and self-esteem u will have to stick to your guns. It sounds like u already laid down the law by telling your wife when u heard the ridiculous story that u wouldnt pay one baht.

You have to treat them like children. What u say goes and thats it period. If u don't, just like children, they will test u and push and push.

Its unfortunate that it has to be like this, but its a fact of life when u are dealing with people who have a third-world mentality.

Best of luck

[bkkmadness]

I disagree this is an example of the difference between Asian and Western cultures, and I'm sure many Asians would agree with the consensus here, the theft was wrong so why should she get the money.

Seconded.

I'm 100% Asian, and I fail to see why the girl should get any "compensation". Stealing is wrong. End of story. If I were the girl, my parents would have been so embarrassed beyond belief, and would have understood why the wedding was cancelled.

Thats right LC, your family would have lost a ton of face. They wouldn't dare ask for cash would they? How could they?

Same old story, some scummy people scream 'it's a Thai thing you wouldn't understand' and some farang dude loses some more cash.

Happens everyday, usually only to newbies, so what's going on with you Simon? I know you can afford it, but how can you live with yourself knowing you are getting cheated like this? You must feel a bit like you lose a bit of your own 'face' when you are getting treated like such an idiot? (forgive the bluntness!)

[wasabi]

Tell the family you want to talk personally with the girl. Go to a private location then take her over your knee and spank her for a solid 3 minutes until her brown bottom is bright red. Send her out of the room then head to the local bar for a well deserved Singha. If the family asks for the 30,000 just keep saying mai kao jai and drinking that Singha.

You don't understand Thai people is one of the oldest scams out there. Really it's a lose lose situation for you, if you pay you will be hit up again and again, if you don't pay your wife will hold a grudge but at least you'll be 30k richer. If the girl is pretty you could consider paying the 30k as long as the girl promises to be your mia noi upon reaching 18 years of age but this doesn't exempt her from the spanking. After all aren't you paying some type of replacement dowry if so you deserve your just due. hel_l their the ones who want to do it the Thai way.

[bkkmadness]

:D

Sounds like a plan.

Edited January 17, 2007 by bkkmadness

[bkkandrew]

Tell the family you want to talk personally with the girl. Go to a private location then take her over your knee and spank her for a solid 3 minutes until her brown bottom is bright red. Send her out of the room then head to the local bar for a well deserved Singha. If the family asks for the 30,000 just keep saying mai kao jai and drinking that Singha.

You don't understand Thai people is one of the oldest scams out there. Really it's a lose lose situation for you, if you pay you will be hit up again and again, if you don't pay your wife will hold a grudge but at least you'll be 30k richer. If the girl is pretty you could consider paying the 30k as long as the girl promises to be your mia noi upon reaching 18 years of age but this doesn't exempt her from the spanking. After all aren't you paying some type of replacement dowry if so you deserve your just due. hel_l their the ones who want to do it the Thai way.

You know, you have hit on something here! Aside from the spanking fetish, if I was the OP, I would use this to his advantage, explaining that, as he was effectively paying the dowry, this entitled him to have a mia noi, or perhaps downgrade the wife and insert the new one as the mia luang. After all, it is part of Thai culture, promoted from the top, none other that K. Sonthi...

I think she would rapidly abandon stringent application of Thai culture to the situation at hand once this was argument was put forward as the solution!

[TRIPxCORE]

You are a bloody hard lot. The girl is only sixteen, maybe really nice girl, saw a lot of money in American house, and maybe though she will help her parents or grandparents.

Stupid mistake, I bet when you were sixteen you made few. Would be much better to sit the girl down, had a long talk to find out why she did it. After all nobody really lost anything, cheques are back with the owner. Like this, the family ruined this girl life and future, but they thing they done the right thing. The money paid to her is insignificant.All this anger about nothing much.

You're talking as if the girl in question is only 6 years old, not 16. At 16 years of age, everyone knows taking money that doesn't belong to you is wrong. Now I fail to see how this girls life will be "ruined" because of the canceled marriage. How is her life ruined, may I ask? Just because she isn't "worth" as much to a potential future husband because of this episode? Like you said, the girl is only 16. In a few years this whole thing will probably be forgotten about or she might meet someone that has no knowledge any of this even happened. I would hardly say her life is going to be ruined.

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

Simon

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is canceled. How long would a marriage between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

This is something that really upsets me. Isn't it convenient how the trouble caused to the farang is just forgotten about while this whole "face" thing gets top priority? This is just plain wrong and it only goes to show that the people involved have absolutely no respect for farang. Your concerns aren't important enough for them to worry about but you certainly matter when money is needed aren't you? Fluck that man!!!!!!!!

[bino]

I'm agreeing with you Simon- the concept of rewarding a thief would piss me off, to say the least. Especially when you figure like bkkmadess said- she stole $1000 (which she couldn't spend) and now she / family are getting almost the same amount in cash and gold.

How about your wife's sister? She has lost a lot of face to the American, and if there was any relationship there or chance for the sister to marry this guy, it is surely shot to hel_l now. Shouldn't the thieving girl's family be compensating her for a lost sinsod also?

You said that your wife has asked to "borrow" the compensation money from you. Why not go with Terry's method? Since you have made your point of view known to your wife, tell her that you won't freely give the money, but begrudgingly loan it to her in order to resolve the situation with the family. Demand interest on the loan at a compirable rate to what it would earn if it was still in your account / investments, making it clear that there will be no further monies for the family until paid in full.

Gotta admit though- wasabi's mia noi aspect has its merits also! If you're gonna pay for something, you might as well get some value for the money!

Edited January 17, 2007 by bino

[teacup]

This is something that really upsets me. Isn't it convenient how the trouble caused to the farang is just forgotten about while this whole "face" thing gets top priority? This is just plain wrong and it only goes to show that the people involved have absolutely no respect for farang. Your concerns aren't important enough for them to worry about but you certainly matter when money is needed aren't you? Fluck that man!!!!!!!!

I agreed with everything you just said.

Even being a thai myself, I still absolutely hate it when people(esp our own thais) took some part of the culture and used it in the out of context way. It doesn’t serve anyone any good for the long term when applying it with absolutely no common sense at all. I just had it with this “face saving” thing. It’s absurd and ridiculous way to solve the problem in this situation!

[allexx]

Yep, would be nice if the girl actually said sorry, but she hasn't... I suggested to the family that I phone up the American guy and for the girl to tell him in English, Thai, Lao or whatever that she was sorry. My wife couldn't understand why the girl should apologize to the guy.

Simon

Now you know your wifes IQ.

[bendix]

Yep, would be nice if the girl actually said sorry, but she hasn't... I suggested to the family that I phone up the American guy and for the girl to tell him in English, Thai, Lao or whatever that she was sorry. My wife couldn't understand why the girl should apologize to the guy.

Simon

Now you know your wifes IQ.

Dammit . . now I got coffee on my computer screen! Not funny.

[helicoptor]

BTW great post - lots of viewpoints - all interesting to say the least

That 'Gum' on your forehead - is it henna tattoo? If so it may take a while to wear off...

BOT - Thais use this 'lost face' culture excuse as and when it suits them - and it certainly does suit in this case, It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if this whole saga was concocted between the two families before you even turned up. Your wife dismissing your protests with her comment, 'This is how we do in Thailand' <deleted> is patronising and disrespecting you.

Thai culture does not come into it, do not let this cloud your instincts, stick to your guns, do not pay, strip it down again and see it for what it is

Girl Steals from you, consequence is she get a wad of money for doing so?

BTW all the thais I work with have been reading this and they are at your obvious naivety and seemingly endless supply of $$$

[TRIPxCORE]

Yep, would be nice if the girl actually said sorry, but she hasn't... I suggested to the family that I phone up the American guy and for the girl to tell him in English, Thai, Lao or whatever that she was sorry. My wife couldn't understand why the girl should apologize to the guy.

Simon

Now you know your wifes IQ.

Ok c'mon now, there is no need for a personal attack. This isn't our situation to deal with anyway, it's Simon's. He asked for our input in the matter which we have been giving but he doesn't need us insulting his wife too.