Thoughts on healthiest diet/vaccination programme for dogs

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, Arjen said:

WW, about the stitches, I tried to explain that treatment for a human in a hospital is much cheaper then treatment for a dog....

 

I have this discussion often with my wife. An older vet, or doctor for people has a lot of experience. So they do not need to search what is wrong, They just treat, and very often correct. A young vet, (or doctor for people) is more aware from new techniques and insights, but lacks experience. When I see how fast our "old vet" judges correct  whitch dog he can touch, and witch dog needs to muzzle, I am very impressed. My big sheppard (most Thai are scared for him) he touches without hesitation. Our much smaller absolute not trustable Thai dog, just in the first second he refuses to touch that dog without we put a muzzle on him.

 

And recently I have seen that this older very experienced vet. lost a dog while he was treating it. He was really sad about this. He left his pet shop, and came back after ten minutes.  I feel he has the shop to keep alive. 

 

It is not a problem for me you prefer a modern clinic. Even the animal hospital here. they have a huge petshop....

 

Arjen

"An older vet, or doctor for people has a lot of experience. So they do not need to search what is wrong, They just treat, and very often correct."

True to a certain extent, but several years ago one of my dogs was hit by a scooter and the 'old', v. experienced vet told me his serious limp was due to bruising.  I took him back every couple of days as his limp didn't improve - until my brother asked whether I was sure the vet had given him an X-ray.

 

It turned out that he hadn't (even though he had an X-ray machine) and my poor dog's leg was broken....  To be fair, the vet was/is a lovely, kind and compassionate man - but his practice was geared around poor people, and so he always tried to keep the cost as low as possible.

[wildewillie89]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Back on topic - she also mentioned an annual vaccination against heart worms.  Apparently expensive, which is why it's not immediately offered by vets?  Does anyone know anything about this?

Heartworms can be found from a simple blood test. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think they take a good few years to show any symptoms, so usually dogs over 2 years old will be the ones that have symptoms. Again, a lot of it depends on how healthy the dog is to begin with. Can be a fatal problem, but rare these days (although who knows in Thai).
 

Dr.Ronald Schultz says this: 'Checking for heartworm, tumors, dermatological problems and tooth decay should be done on a yearly basis'. 

[wildewillie89]

6 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

It might be better not to vaccinate our dogs at all and let the fittest survive to reproduce... which have natural immunity to disease.   Also stop breeding the weak genetically messed up pedigree dogs... which nearly all get hereditary diseases and its the norm to have expensive vet bill and heartache with them.

 

No one vaccinated the village mutts here.. and most are strong and fit.  Then see my neighbour with her pugs which can hardly breath and have recurring eye problems and vet bills, because they are genetic freaks.  

Not even puppy vaccines? Not even Rabies vaccines?
 

The village dogs that are owned are generally at least vaccinated as puppies (which is all they really need to be) and the government has run programs where one day a year most people take their dog to get vaccinated for rabies (usually at the temple). 

The pedigree issue I think has a lot to do with showing lines and looks. Yes, mutts generally are healthier, but working breeds and dogs that have stayed true to their heritage rather than be changed for looks or to fit into society still do quite well. 

[wildewillie89]

Just adding to that, the heartworm test is exactly the same as the test vets use for ticks (i.e. SNAP test). Other testing can obviously give more information about how far things have progressed if the SNAP gives a positive result. Full bloods and a SNAP shouldn't take longer than 30 minutes to receive the results and obviously should be either done 6 monthly or annually (as those two simple tests provide so much information re all health issues but particularly heartworm/ticks). I think 950 baht for CBC/SNAP at my vet. 

[jak2002003]

4 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Not even puppy vaccines? Not even Rabies vaccines?
 

The village dogs that are owned are generally at least vaccinated as puppies (which is all they really need to be) and the government has run programs where one day a year most people take their dog to get vaccinated for rabies (usually at the temple). 

The pedigree issue I think has a lot to do with showing lines and looks. Yes, mutts generally are healthier, but working breeds and dogs that have stayed true to their heritage rather than be changed for looks or to fit into society still do quite well. 

Honestly, you think the village dogs and street dogs are all taken for annual vaccinations?

 

Around here the dogs are left to fend for themselves with the occasional food drop of left over Thai family dinner.  There is no way they are taken for vaccinations.. even as puppies.  They are always getting killed, run over, mange, and just disappear to be replaced by the younger ones or new ones wandering into the area.  There are puppies running about, pregnant dogs, male dogs fighting and going around in packs of well over 10 when a bitch is on heat.  

 

We have 2 temples right near our home.  I pass them every day.  I have never once seen dogs being vaccinated there in 10 years of living here.   Maybe where you are its different.  I am in the countryside on Chiang Mai.

 

 

[wildewillie89]

9 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Honestly, you think the village dogs and street dogs are all taken for annual vaccinations?

 

Around here the dogs are left to fend for themselves with the occasional food drop of left over Thai family dinner.  There is no way they are taken for vaccinations.. even as puppies.  They are always getting killed, run over, mange, and just disappear to be replaced by the younger ones or new ones wandering into the area.  There are puppies running about, pregnant dogs, male dogs fighting and going around in packs of well over 10 when a bitch is on heat.  

 

We have 2 temples right near our home.  I pass them every day.  I have never once seen dogs being vaccinated there in 10 years of living here.   Maybe where you are its different.  I am in the countryside on Chiang Mai.

 

 

Yes, a hell of a lot more vaccination needs to occur. However, it is not as dire as people seem to think (if looking at it from a developing country point of view). If talking annual vaccines, then it is more rabies we are considering in Thai. If we look at the figures, vaccines clearly are being given and are helping (as represented in the number of human deaths/animals testing positive in the early 90s compared to now). 

The Vet Ministry each year lists the provinces that need to vaccinate not only dogs that fall under government responsibility (strays, government buildings, temple etc), but also privately owned dogs. So if your area is clear of rabies and has been for a while, then the government will only vaccinate non-private dogs. If your area is at risk, then they will also vaccinate privately owned dogs annually until the risk is contained. The only reason for Thai residents not to know about this is that they live under a rock or they blatantly refuse to vaccinate (farang generally vaccinate at the vet anyway). 

I live in a rural Issan village and even here the local officials have books in their offices with lists of houses that have been vaccinated. When I was bitten by a village dog, I just had to locate the house, go to the Tessaban and find out if that dog had been vaccinated or not. Before, vets would administer the vaccine, however, now 3 or 4 local officials have training/licensing to administer them. So before, the local areas were restricted to a day a year (vet was free), whereas now the country is running out of vaccines as so many dogs are being vaccinated.

Yes, Thai don't look after their dogs. They don't feed them, they leave gates open so they form packs/get pregnant, they fight, but there are programs run in the areas the government deem at risk. Even though the dogs look incredibly mangy and deformed, many Thai (obviously nowhere near all), even in rural Issan, will get puppy shots. Untreated core diseases have fatality rates of 50-90% for puppies born to mothers who haven't been vaccinated. We would be seeing bodies laying about everywhere if absolutely no vaccines were given, rather than the frequent bodies, but not so frequent that one would be inclined to think the community has an extremely serious outbreak. Distemper especially, from memory, was the leading cause of canine death prior to the vaccine being introduced.

My Mrs is a head of Public Health so helps coordinate these programs. She recently suggested to the Vet Ministry at a conference to vaccinate for rabies every few years and tag/tattoo the non-owned dogs to identify them so vaccines are not wasted on already vaccinated dogs. The reply from the Vet Ministry was, 'we know other countries do 3 yearly rabies shots, but in Thai we do annually'. She has since written an essay to the Royal family with the suggestion (which she was awarded for), however, Thailand is quite slow to change compared to the rest of the world on many things.

[jak2002003]

2 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Yes, a hell of a lot more vaccination needs to occur. However, it is not as dire as people seem to think (if looking at it from a developing country point of view). If talking annual vaccines, then it is more rabies we are considering in Thai. If we look at the figures, vaccines clearly are being given and are helping (as represented in the number of human deaths/animals testing positive in the early 90s compared to now). 

The Vet Ministry each year lists the provinces that need to vaccinate not only dogs that fall under government responsibility (strays, government buildings, temple etc), but also privately owned dogs. So if your area is clear of rabies and has been for a while, then the government will only vaccinate non-private dogs. If your area is at risk, then they will also vaccinate privately owned dogs annually until the risk is contained. The only reason for Thai residents not to know about this is that they live under a rock or they blatantly refuse to vaccinate (farang generally vaccinate at the vet anyway). 

I live in a rural Issan village and even here the local officials have books in their offices with lists of houses that have been vaccinated. When I was bitten by a village dog, I just had to locate the house, go to the Tessaban and find out if that dog had been vaccinated or not. Before, vets would administer the vaccine, however, now 3 or 4 local officials have training/licensing to administer them. So before, the local areas were restricted to a day a year (vet was free), whereas now the country is running out of vaccines as so many dogs are being vaccinated.

Yes, Thai don't look after their dogs. They don't feed them, they leave gates open so they form packs/get pregnant, they fight, but there are programs run in the areas the government deem at risk. Even though the dogs look incredibly mangy and deformed, many Thai (obviously nowhere near all), even in rural Issan, will get puppy shots. Untreated core diseases have fatality rates of 50-90% for puppies born to mothers who haven't been vaccinated. We would be seeing bodies laying about everywhere if absolutely no vaccines were given, rather than the frequent bodies, but not so frequent that one would be inclined to think the community has an extremely serious outbreak. Distemper especially, from memory, was the leading cause of canine death prior to the vaccine being introduced.

My Mrs is a head of Public Health so helps coordinate these programs. She recently suggested to the Vet Ministry at a conference to vaccinate for rabies every few years and tag/tattoo the non-owned dogs to identify them so vaccines are not wasted on already vaccinated dogs. The reply from the Vet Ministry was, 'we know other countries do 3 yearly rabies shots, but in Thai we do annually'. She has since written an essay to the Royal family with the suggestion (which she was awarded for), however, Thailand is quite slow to change compared to the rest of the world on many things.

What area of Thailand do you live in?

 

I am in Chiang Mai and there are no such things happening here.  No vaccination books held by the vets to say what house the dogs belong to, no government people coming to the villages vaccinating the dogs.  

 

We don't see many bodies.. because the dogs either die as puppies, or skulk away to die in the undergrowth.  We see some hit by cars.  Also many get poisoned 'accidently' when farmers put rat poison in the rice fields.  

 

The local village shops have dogs, which last a few years, but are replaced by the puppies they have given birth to.  Sometimes, even way out in very remote places with no houses or people about, when I go cycling, I see dogs in the middle of nowhere too.  These must be feral dogs.. and no way anyone has had them vaccinated.

 

Your account sounds very good on paper, but I suspect in the real world this is not as good as it sounds.  

 

Figures are nearly always messed about with here.  For example, when I went to get anti rabies shots after a dog bite, I told the doctor I saw on the internet government report that our area was rabies free so maybe I did not need the vaccination.  Well, the look on his face was priceless... he said that is far from true. 

 

 

[wildewillie89]

8 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

What area of Thailand do you live in?

 

I am in Chiang Mai and there are no such things happening here.  No vaccination books held by the vets to say what house the dogs belong to, no government people coming to the villages vaccinating the dogs.  

 

We don't see many bodies.. because the dogs either die as puppies, or skulk away to die in the undergrowth.  We see some hit by cars.  Also many get poisoned 'accidently' when farmers put rat poison in the rice fields.  

 

The local village shops have dogs, which last a few years, but are replaced by the puppies they have given birth to.  Sometimes, even way out in very remote places with no houses or people about, when I go cycling, I see dogs in the middle of nowhere too.  These must be feral dogs.. and no way anyone has had them vaccinated.

 

Your account sounds very good on paper, but I suspect in the real world this is not as good as it sounds.  

 

Figures are nearly always messed about with here.  For example, when I went to get anti rabies shots after a dog bite, I told the doctor I saw on the internet government report that our area was rabies free so maybe I did not need the vaccination.  Well, the look on his face was priceless... he said that is far from true. 

 

 

Vets generally hold records under a dogs name, rather than where they live. Although I think our vets have our address also (would have to double check). Either way, most vet clinics are private so they really don't have any obligation to give out information. If your area is considered no risk, then you wouldn't have seen the programs, as the budget would logically be put into higher risk areas. In my municipality in Chaiyaphum (higher risk - most recently a cat died of rabies in the last couple of months), the public health officials in each municipality keep a log of what privately owned animals have been vaccinated by them. The staff do rounds of their jurisdiction to find any dogs they can (so whether dogs on farms, feral in wood lands, and the obvious spots like temples etc). The biggest problem is their is not enough vaccines, hence the idea to tag/tattoo dogs so vaccines can go further rather than re vaccinating the same dogs. If your province does have rabies cases and moves into a higher risk category, then it would be a similar scenario for you. 

No doubt figures are messed with in Thailand, however, one only needs to look at the annual conferences and the new initiatives each year to see the country is at least trying (due to the incredibly hopeful campaign involving the eradication of rabies by 2020). The simple initiative of training local staff to vaccinate rather than restricting each village to only one day a year the vet comes to have their dogs vaccinated has already put waiting lists on vaccines this year for many areas. As the WHO points out, there are many cases that are not 'diagnosed' so the figures realistically are higher than what are presented, however, the trend is showing a decrease in cases. 

The doctor thing is hit and miss in Thai, they really wouldn't know unless they are directors, or had the cases themselves (which would also imply they have the actual physical means to make a correct diagnoses to begin with, which I think would be doubtful). For instance, one of our cousins was bitten by a house hold dog that was vaccinated 6 months earlier. Even with that known vaccination record it was still thought that the dog could somehow have rabies by the doctors. The belief comes from a obvious fear of the disease, but also the fact that many dogs are dumped by people from other provinces, so doctors will always believe rabies is around (even if the field work/researchers say it isn't), which is a not a bad thing as they will obviously never risk not giving a post vaccine. 

[AaronC76]

My local vet has quoted me for neutering/spaying my two dogs: 3,800 for the bitch and 3,200 for the boy.

Does this sound accurate?

I was told previously it would cost about 800 for the dog!

They are both big dogs, over 30kg, so I assume the high price must be due to the amount of anesthetic needed during the op?

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, AaronC76 said:

My local vet has quoted me for neutering/spaying my two dogs: 3,800 for the bitch and 3,200 for the boy.

Does this sound accurate?

I was told previously it would cost about 800 for the dog!

They are both big dogs, over 30kg, so I assume the high price must be due to the amount of anesthetic needed during the op?

Haven't got my prices yet. They would do full bloods before hand so that would account for close to 1,000 of that final figure I guess. 

 

I think size is a factor. I have one vet in my city that won't do anything over 30kg. I would be happy with those prices. My female is 50kg and male will be closer to 70kg, get prices in March when I get the female done. Universities, if live close, are probably a lot cheaper. 

[wildewillie89]

A teacher just died of rabies in Surin. The following kind of adds to what I was explaining happens in rabies areas. This vaccination protocol has happened in my village the last few years due to animal cases being 45 min drive away (same Province). My particular village I don't think has ever actually had a rabies case. The government and people do act, it's just people don't really know or see it unless involved. I know I wouldn't if my family wasn't a part of the process. 

 

'Following her death, the Surin Livestock Office declared her village, Phorang, a rabies control zone earlier this week and dispatched a team of officials to vaccinate all dogs and cats in the community. Local residents were also told to quarantine their pet dogs and cats until the office could ascertain the disease was under control'.