Cheap Charlie Farangs that expect service but do not want to pay

[jenny2017]

2 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I remember when a Tuk tuk was a means of transport for everybody, but they are surely a novelty now. Why would a tourist hire one to travel from Chiang Mai city to Doi Suthep? I suspect that the driver knows that the novelty will have worn off by the time they arrive and that the return journey is not going to happen which explains why he wanted so much.


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One of my good Thai friends is a red taxi (songthaew) driver in Chiang Mai and owns his taxi. Yesterday I asked him about his work and whether he makes a reasonable living as a red songthaew driver in CM? He told me this:( From the OP)

 

   A songthaew is a modified pick up truck, just saying. 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 I can't count how many times I've felt like a sucker paying the agreed price when the journey wasn't nearly as far as that fare should have taken me.  Like Tuk-tuks on Sukhumvit that ask 200 baht to go 1/4 km.  Tourists who don't know their destination is only 250 meters away may agree up front, then have second thoughts when they find out they've been fleeced. anyway.  

People have responsibility to know what they are asking for including about how long a ride they want.   

 

People also have the responsibility not to cheat tourists because of their lack of local knowledge.  Most of us come from countries where that would be illegal, and any such vendors would be shut down in a hurry.  So it's not surprising that some tourists may react to being cheated by refusing to pay.

 

It's a clash of cultures between the Western nanny state where "everything is clearly marked and everyone pays the same clearly marked price", and Eastern culture, where kids start negotiating prices right out of the womb.

 

Edit:  And one of the reasons for taking a taxi or a songthaew is because I don't know where my destination is.  That's half the fun of being a tourist in a new location.  I'll pay the agreed fare regardless, but if a guy quotes me 1200 baht then takes me 500 meters down the road, I can understand how someone else may not feel so inclined.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by impulse

[jenny2017]

 

What's the antonym to Cheap Charley in Thailand, is it possible that it's Idiot? Many years ago at the night market in CM when a foreign woman gave a 500 baht tip on an overpriced 500 baht shirt that would cost 100 baht somewhere else.

 

    It's better to be a Kee Niaou, than a Kee Nok. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by jenny2017

[suzannegoh]

 
What's the antonym to Cheap Charley in Thailand, is it possible that it's Idiot? Many years ago at the night market in CM when a foreign woman gave a 500 baht tip on an overpriced 500 baht shirt that would cost 100 baht somewhere else.
 
    It's better to be a Kee Niaou, than a Kee Nok. 
 
 

Spending Spencer is the term that you are looking for.

[tryasimight]

13 hours ago, jenny2017 said:

+ 1 This guy is unbelievable and his posts are more than questionable. Especially the ones where he lifts the little man up into the sky. Why?

Perhaps he is one of the rare breeds on this forum....an independent thinker who doesn't follow the herds rhetoric?

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Perhaps he is one of the rare breeds on this forum....an independent thinker who doesn't follow the herds rhetoric?

 

That can be hazardous to one's sanity here on TVF.

 

[tgeezer]

 
What's the antonym to Cheap Charley in Thailand, is it possible that it's Idiot? Many years ago at the night market in CM when a foreign woman gave a 500 baht tip on an overpriced 500 baht shirt that would cost 100 baht somewhere else.
 
    It's better to be a Kee Niaou, than a Kee Nok. 
 
 

Why not try the language forum both those terms can mean the same.
I would think that rather than calling people names a Thai would be rejoicing in their good fortune and looking forward to the next incredibly generous wealthy person. Thais do not look down on people who can afford to give them money they look up to them and call them good people.


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[impulse]

7 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I would think that rather than calling people names a Thai would be rejoicing in their good fortune and looking forward to the next incredibly generous wealthy person. Thais do not look down on people who can afford to give them money they look up to them and call them good people.

 

I don't really care what they think of me.  I do care how they treat me.

 

In my experience, a few extra baht today goes a long way to better service and more smiles for years into the future.  10-20 baht means boo diddly squat to me, but when you're making 40 baht an hour, it's a nice little bonus and usually appreciated.

 

BTW, in China, they call us Da Toh.  (phonetic spelling)  It means big head, or someone who spends more than they need to.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by impulse

[suzannegoh]

Why not try the language forum both those terms can mean the same.
I would think that rather than calling people names a Thai would be rejoicing in their good fortune and looking forward to the next incredibly generous wealthy person. Thais do not look down on people who can afford to give them money they look up to them and call them good people.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

That's a novel theory. Farangs are charged double out of respect?

[tryasimight]

9 hours ago, zoza said:

I have just returned from a trip up country and was surprised at the attitude of the

staff at some of the bars and restaurants, at one they put an extra 50 baht on the

bill?at another place they told my wife it was an old menu and the prices had gone up, at yet another informed her that for takeaway food it was more expensive?

near every place the beer was about 30baht dearer than you pay in Pattaya, this was not one or two places, it was only one or two that seemed to not try to have you over at every turn,

and then there was the push back, bumped into a group of expats, sitting near a

hotel entrance and as I knew one I was invited to join them, it turns out they were

buying beer from a shop across the road and drinking it on the hotels bench.

it is high season and lots of businesses want to make big money, and maybe not as

many tourists as hoped for have arrived, so what do Thais do when the numbers are down they up the cost of everything, so you have two sides of the coin.

on my first trip here 16years ago I flagged down a rickshaw to take us to the shopping mall a bit of a novelty for twenty baht...well that went out the window when the 90 year old driver impressed us with his fitness as he pedalled like mad

to make good his escape with my 100 baht in his hand..swings and roundabouts 

We went to a bar in Sangkha, Surin over the New Year and a large bottle of Singha was 95 baht. I can't remember the price I paid for a small bottle in Pattaya recently but I very much doubt you can get a tallie for that price.

[Russell17au]

On 06/01/2018 at 7:59 AM, steven100 said:

There's so many cheap charlie farangs in Thailand .....   They expect 5 star service for a three star price .....  

That's why I don't drink with farang ....    they are cheap.  !!

Thank you for judging me and branding me as cheap, especially since we have never met and you don't know me, I am a farang and I find that your branding all farang as cheap is only showing how judgemental, ignorant and arrogant you are and I personally find your comment quite insulting.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

That's a novel theory. Farangs are charged double out of respect?

 

 

In many Eastern cultures, people with more money are expected to help out those less fortunate.  And in those cases, asking for a higher price is a sign of deference to someone else's higher status.

 

Of course, like all honorable customs around the world, that one is oft abused.

 

[suzannegoh]

 

In many Eastern cultures, people with more money are expected to help out those less fortunate.  And in those cases, asking for a higher price is a sign of deference to someone else's higher status.

 

 

In your experience, do rich Thais share that expectation?

 

[tgeezer]

I didn't say that someone who provides someone with a huge bonus is respected for it, but why not? If I was working in a service industry, a waiter for example, and was given a huge tip by a tourist, I certainly would not consider the customer an idiot.


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[newatthis]

16 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

16 hours ago, steven100 said:

This is exactly the reason I have nothing to do with farang ...  only thai's.
but then again ... I've been around ...

No such thing as favours anymore?

Exactly right. Where has this word disappeared to. I remember [and not that long ago] mowing lawns, weeding gardens, fixing fences etc of friend's place and even taking your own lunch to do it. Now the catch phrase seems to be "I owe you one" or "you owe me big time."

And stop pointing the finger at farang. Thais are no different. A tree got blown down once in a storm. Thai neighbours "helped" my wife, cut up and then they took it away to make charcoal......for 500baht.

And the worst part is that people shun others because they don't return the favours. If you have to return a favour, then it wasn't a favour. It's like gift giving. I don't want another gift in return.

Sorry, but the world is changing and not for the best.

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

In your experience, do rich Thais share that expectation?

 

If Yingluck S. and the local noodle lady both walk into a market looking to buy turnips or mangoes, I'm pretty sure she happily pays more than the noodle lady.

 

To answer your question, the rich ones who haven't lost touch with their culture, yes.   The few I know are extremely generous when they're out and around.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by impulse

[suzannegoh]

I didn't say that someone who provides someone with a huge bonus is respected for it, but why not? If I was working in a service industry, a waiter for example, and was given a huge tip by a tourist, I certainly would not consider the customer an idiot.


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I'd agree if the subject is honest people who receive a tip but not if the subject is people who charge farangs a multiple of what they charge Thais.

[impulse]

22 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

I'd agree if the subject is honest people who receive a tip but not if the subject is people who charge farangs a multiple of what they charge Thais.

 

 

Back home, our governments make negotiating unnecessary with consumer protection laws that require clearly marked prices.  They haven't done us any favors when it comes to learning negotiating skills, which are handy in places where just about everything is negotiable.  And that's why we often get our clocks cleaned in places like SE Asia, China, the Middle East, etc.

 

In that arena, good business means getting the maximum price that a customer is willing to pay for a good or a service.  That means sizing up the prospects, asking a price based on the maximum they may be willing to pay, and negotiating from there.  If foreigners get a higher starting price, it's because they're seen as willing (or at least able) to pay more.  If they don't negotiate that down as low as a local can, that's on their negotiating skills.  Or how much time and effort they're willing to take out of their life to negotiate the price down.  I've seen Chinese and Thai people pour tea and spend hours negotiating a price.  I'm not willing to do that.  So I pay more.  But that's on me.

 

Obviously, that doesn't address dual pricing that's clearly marked and not negotiable.  But my opinion on that isn't widely shared here on TVF because I'm (generally) in favor of it.  Otherwise a lot of the venues that I enjoy would either go out of business or reduce the amenities to a level I wouldn't enjoy nearly as much.  It's all about overhead absorption and incremental revenue.  And I do agree that my view is controversial.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by impulse

[gandalf12]

On 06/01/2018 at 4:00 AM, NanLaew said:

Many, many years ago in Pattaya, way before motorcyccle taxis, hiring a songtaew to take one over the hill for an afternoon on Jomtien beach was all done quite honorably. The fare was agreed pre-departure and the pick-up time for the return trip agreed. No money was paid until the return trip had been completed. Nobody was bilked and nobody was left stranded on the beach.

 

I guess there was just a much better class of 'tourist' and songtaew driver back then. Even in Pattaya.

I remember thise days as well.  Just shows the kind if people that come to Thailand now. I have and never will try to get away without paying or not paying the agreed price 

[geriatrickid]

It starts with being a cheap fool hiring willing to sit in the back of a pickup truck  for a 40km trip like someone's field worker. Behave like a  low class local and be prepared to be treated as one. Depressing thread but it explains why  much of Thailand treats farangs as low class nobodies. It is because they are. 

 

I get it, that it takes all kinds to make the world go round, but don't expect customs officials or bank managers, or large business owners or  bona fide hisos to pay too much attention to the views of farangs like this, if the farang social circle is shuttle bus drivers, beer bar whores, tour desk sales clerks, guest house operators etc. 

 

Foreign residents who hang about low status Thais and befriend them accomplish two things in Thailand;

1. They  don't have an actual Thai friend despite how many years together and how much they might do for the Thai and;

2.  They will be treated as someone who occupies a low rung on the ladder.

 

It reads elitist and condescending, but that is the harsh reality.  Cheap farangs who rip off Thais are in the low end of the spectrum and are doing unto the local what the local does unto them. Hire a proper vehicle and driver and stop trying to go jungle.

[impulse]

Just now, gandalf12 said:

On 1/6/2018 at 7:00 AM, NanLaew said:

Many, many years ago in Pattaya, way before motorcyccle taxis, hiring a songtaew to take one over the hill for an afternoon on Jomtien beach was all done quite honorably. The fare was agreed pre-departure and the pick-up time for the return trip agreed. No money was paid until the return trip had been completed. Nobody was bilked and nobody was left stranded on the beach.

 

I guess there was just a much better class of 'tourist' and songtaew driver back then. Even in Pattaya.

I remember thise days as well.  Just shows the kind if people that come to Thailand now. I have and never will try to get away without paying or not paying the agreed price 

 

But that goes both ways.  Back then, there weren't as many opportunistic vendors that flocked to the tourist areas to prey on them, either. 

 

It happens all over the world- a friendly village becomes a destination for adventurous tourists.  Then the spiral where it gets easier and easier to get there, drawing less adventurous tourists, and all that money attracts less and less savory vendors.

 

That's why I enjoy places like Songkhla so much.  With the nearby insurgency, it's still a little off the beaten path and that whole tourism eco-system is decades behind .  It hasn't lost its "friendly village" aura.  I'm sure there are many other places today that are like Songkhla, and like Pattaya was back then.  And I hope we don't hear about most of them- lest they start on that spiral.

 

[impulse]

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

It reads elitist and condescending, but that is the harsh reality.  Cheap farangs who rip off Thais are in the low end of the spectrum and are doing unto the local what the local does unto them. Hire a proper vehicle and driver and stop trying to go jungle.

 

Some of my fondest memories of childhood are piling a bunch of us into the back of a hay filled pickup truck and going on a hay ride.  That was in Michigan, BTW.  Lifelong memories.  Like piling into the back of a songtheaw and laughing all the way down the road.  I'd hate to give all that up for status.

 

[Billy Bloggs]

Ok from my time in CM ( i quickly learned the price to most places) some liked quoting over the top I just said no and waited for the next, if they took the best route to get there I may tip.

I also got a couple who would hire for the trip to where I wanted to go, Doi Suthep for 3 of us it was 600 baht total(this was about 6 months ago) and he waited for us no problem, a trip to the night safari for 4 was 500 baht and again he waited for us.

So for the OP if his friend maybe didnt try to gouge money from people he might get more business and less hassles.

But yes in every society there will be low lifes, but hospitals if any good have a copy of your photo page of your passport and should report you if you skip without paying then the embarrassment begins.

[suzannegoh]

37 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Back home, our governments make negotiating unnecessary with consumer protection laws that require clearly marked prices.  They haven't done us any favors when it comes to learning negotiating skills, which are handy in places where just about everything is negotiable.  And that's why we often get our clocks cleaned in places like SE Asia, China, the Middle East, etc.

 

In that arena, good business means getting the maximum price that a customer is willing to pay for a good or a service.  That means sizing up the prospects, asking a price based on the maximum they may be willing to pay, and negotiating from there.  If foreigners get a higher starting price, it's because they're seen as willing (or at least able) to pay more.  If they don't negotiate that down as low as a local can, that's on their negotiating skills.  Or how much time and effort they're willing to take out of their life to negotiate the price down.  I've seen Chinese and Thai people pour tea and spend hours negotiating a price.  I'm not willing to do that.  So I pay more.  But that's on me.

 

Obviously, that doesn't address dual pricing that's clearly marked and not negotiable.  But my opinion on that isn't widely shared here on TVF because I'm (generally) in favor of it.  Otherwise a lot of the venues that I enjoy would either go out of business or reduce the amenities to a level I wouldn't enjoy nearly as much.  It's all about overhead absorption and incremental revenue.  And I do agree that my view is controversial.

 

 

 

I agree with that for the most part.  Previously you seemed to be suggesting that in Asia rich people pay more than poor people out of altruism and that they are respected for it.  This paints it more as an issue of market forces.

What you are saying about official double pricing might be a minority view but most Westerners favor that type of system when it comes to income taxes.
 

Edited January 7, 2018 by suzannegoh

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

I agree with that for the most part.  Previously you seemed to be suggesting that in Asia rich people pay more poor people out of altruism and that they are respected for it.  This paints it more as an issue of market forces.

 

The rich people I know do pay more out of altruism.  They just stop negotiating a lot sooner.  And they are respected for it. 

 

No face lost because it's not charity.  But everyone knows what just happened.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by impulse

[suzannegoh]

 
The rich people I know do pay more out of altruism.  They just stop negotiating a lot sooner.  And they are respected for it. 
 
No face lost because it's not charity.  But everyone knows what just happened.
 

Rich Thais in Chiang Mai seem pretty tough on hired help to me, both in terms of what they will pay and in how they treat them.

[impulse]

1 minute ago, suzannegoh said:

Rich Thais in Chiang Mai seem pretty tough on hired help to me, both in terms of what they will pay and in how they treat them.

 

 

Employees are a different deal.  There's some really dysfunctional (to my western sensitivities anyway) dynamics that go on between bosses and their employees here in Asia- and it's not just about the money.  And don't even get me started on how they often treat their business suppliers.  ("A lot like Trump" comes to mind.)

 

It's very different than their personal, day to day dealings with vendors and service people.  With them, they are very generous.  But keep in mind, I don't know more than a couple of dozen truly rich Asians, and just a few of them are Thai.

 

[MaeJoMTB]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:46 AM, cyberfarang said:

a Farang in Chiang Mai wants to go to Doi Suthep. My friend quotes a price of 1200 baht return trip

Normal price is 40bht per person (Zoo to Wat Doi Suthep one way) or 500bht for a private hire to the top of the mountain (Doi Suthep).

So sort of depends what he means by 'Doi Suthep', I'm guessing Wat Doi Suthep as there aren't many places to disappear at the top of Doi Suthep (mountain).

 

[cyberfarang]

1 hour ago, newatthis said:

An interesting read this over a Sunday coffee.

You may be right steven100, but there are many Thais offering a 3  star service and wanting a 5 star payment.

Did some home improvements and I paid very good money to a recommended tiler to get a new roof put on. A week later, we got a storm and it leaked like a sieve. "Please come and have a look?" "Sorry, no can do. Finished now."

 

After the flood, the wife and I decided to invest in upgrading the front garden to protect it in the future, A neighbour and his wife came along and offered for him to help. My wife said they were struggling financially so I offered to pay him 400baht a day [paid daily] to help me. Hours 8.30 to 4.00 and he can go home for a hour for lunch. He would turn up at 10.00am, talk to the next door neighbour for about an hour, then do a little bit of work. My wife had to stand over him the rest of the day. ["You're too jai dee"]

He turned up the next day and I said: "Right, we're going to do this, this and this today and we'll finish." "No, no,, no. I like to work at my own pace. It'll take us 3-4 days to do that." Sent him packing.

There are cheap Charlie Thais, too

You are definitely a cheap Charlie. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

 

Our front garden is fairly large, almost half a rai. The ground is mostly grass and weeds with half a dozen trees. After 6 weeks the grass and weeds grow very quickly and it looks like the Amazon jungle out there. I bought one of those petrol grass cutters and at first was cutting it all down myself. But even with the cutter and especially during the hot season I found it exhausting back breaking work. So we hired a guy, one of our neighbours to cut the garden down using my grass cutter once every 6 weeks and once a month during the rainy season. He quoted us 300 baht to do the job, takes about 2.5 hours each time. Regardless as to the price he first quoted us, I decided to pay him 700 baht each time for the job. While he`s working I give him cold soda water and treat the man with real respect. Ever since he`s does a fantastic job and always available when we need him. For me 700 baht is well worth it for peace of mind.

 

Regardless of whatever the so called going rates are, you only get what you pay for and I always pay what I consider a job is worth not what someone tells me I should be paying.

 

 

[MaeJoMTB]

16 hours ago, jenny2017 said:

But they all had something in common. No insurance policy, and all of them were already older people. They all had to be "Cheep Charlies", because of the little amount of money they could spend. Why these people want to live here is something I do not understand.        

Living alone in a bedsit in the wet/cold UK isn't much fun.

Living here on a UK state pension (4,500bht/week) would be preferable.

 

But anyway the OP was about a foreign tourist being charged 1,200bht for an 80bht SongTaw ride.

Edited January 7, 2018 by MaeJoMTB