Truth In Marriage

[sbk]

Yawn, I am SO sure that all your guys who have been through a divorce in the western world & feel hard done by were ALL completely innocent in any part of the marriage break up And your ex wives are living it up looking after the kids from your relationship & living like royalty on the child support checks you ALL must be paying But no matter what poor babies you are, this will not turn into a slag off western or thai women thread ok

I HATE white women...hissssss

that's it...tutsi off for a holiday...bye, folks...

Really tutsi? I doubt it I think you just hate your ex-wife. I am sure you are smart enough to know the difference.

Remember one thing tutsi: Dill Seeds

As for honesty in marriage. Well, my husband is painfully honest, sometimes too much so. But, knowing that about him I also know that I can trust him. Without honesty, there is no trust.

oh, darlin'...you are disruptin' the drama...I want the white girls on the forum to DISLIKE ME...cursed an' abused, etc...later to be nailed to the cross as an icon for abused ex-husbands everywhere...

oh, dear...looks like I have failed again...

Sounds a bit masochistic to me, tutsi. A little weird for my tastes, personally but I am sure there are some girls out there willing to oblige and nail you to the cross

[Bruce1]

There's a difference between lying and being diplomatic, for example:

HER: "Is my bum big?"

He has three choices:

LIE: "No, its not."

TRUTH: "Yes, its as wide as the Rama 8 bridge"

DIPLOMACY: "I haven't noticed any change."

[Grover]

There's a difference between lying and being diplomatic, for example:

HER: "Is my bum big?"

He has three choices:

LIE: "No, its not."

TRUTH: "Yes, its as wide as the Rama 8 bridge"

DIPLOMACY: "I haven't noticed any change."

Liar. No bum is as wide as the Rama 8 bridge.

If it looks fine, ok, tell her. If it looks a bit big say it. If it looks too big, say it. If they ask a stupid question, tell them that, etc.

Some real honesty is refreshing.

[tutsiwarrior]

Yawn, I am SO sure that all your guys who have been through a divorce in the western world & feel hard done by were ALL completely innocent in any part of the marriage break up And your ex wives are living it up looking after the kids from your relationship & living like royalty on the child support checks you ALL must be paying But no matter what poor babies you are, this will not turn into a slag off western or thai women thread ok

I HATE white women...hissssss

that's it...tutsi off for a holiday...bye, folks...

Really tutsi? I doubt it I think you just hate your ex-wife. I am sure you are smart enough to know the difference.

Remember one thing tutsi: Dill Seeds

As for honesty in marriage. Well, my husband is painfully honest, sometimes too much so. But, knowing that about him I also know that I can trust him. Without honesty, there is no trust.

oh, darlin'...you are disruptin' the drama...I want the white girls on the forum to DISLIKE ME...cursed an' abused, etc...later to be nailed to the cross as an icon for abused ex-husbands everywhere...

oh, dear...looks like I have failed again...

Sounds a bit masochistic to me, tutsi. A little weird for my tastes, personally but I am sure there are some girls out there willing to oblige and nail you to the cross

yeah,...I know, one is easily misunderstood. I had a girlfriend once that thought bondage was about tying one up and sticking pins in one's dick...

tutsi: 'stop that!!! an' untie me at once!!!' girlfriend: 'does this mean that you don't love me???'

dem white girls sho' is clazy...

Edited January 19, 2007 by tutsiwarrior

[terry57]

your a classic tutsi, and where you getting those drugs from mate.

[wolfmanjack]

Yawn, I am SO sure that all your guys who have been through a divorce in the western world & feel hard done by were ALL completely innocent in any part of the marriage break up And your ex wives are living it up looking after the kids from your relationship & living like royalty on the child support checks you ALL must be paying But no matter what poor babies you are, this will not turn into a slag off western or thai women thread ok

I HATE white women...hissssss

that's it...tutsi off for a holiday...bye, folks...

Really tutsi? I doubt it I think you just hate your ex-wife. I am sure you are smart enough to know the difference.

Remember one thing tutsi: Dill Seeds

As for honesty in marriage. Well, my husband is painfully honest, sometimes too much so. But, knowing that about him I also know that I can trust him. Without honesty, there is no trust.

well SBK,

thats the whole point of this post " without honesty, there is no trust "

i mean that is not a very hard concept to grasp, is it not ?

i think what it boils down to is how one views themself.

im far from perfect but i feel that im an honest person so i must have honesty with a partner.

i suppose if one lean towards lying they would expect the same from there partner.

that would be the only way one could deal with it.

Well said. As far as the thai cultural lying to save face it is the truth. Here is an example that convinced my wife. We went on a trip. We were lost. We asked for directions. The thai person lied to us. Sent us on a wild goose chase. The next person lied to us. Tried to send us back to where we had just been. We had to ask over 10 people before we got where we wanted but not one single one said that they did not know. This has never happened to me anywhere but thailand. I have told this story many times and the answer is always that the thai people do not want to look stupid by saying they do not know and they figure they will never see you again. Now it is very difficult to get my wife to ask for directions. She says why should she ask they will only lie anyway!

[tutsiwarrior]

your a classic tutsi, and where you getting those drugs from mate.

drugs?...what drugs? tutsi is au naturel except for the odd vodka here and there...

[autonomous_unit]

I'm compulsively truthful and expect the same from my wife. Things get a little heated because I usually cannot help myself but to be undiplomatic at times. Luckily, she is of a scientific bent and can understand this, but after nine years I think there are times she wishes I'd just keep my thoughts to myself for a few minutes. I don't think of it as man vs. woman or western vs. Thai. It is me versus the universe.

We don't do the white lies either:

"Does this shirt make me look fat?"

(perfect ironic back-beat) "No, but it doesn't hide it as well as that other one..."

[jamman]

There's a difference between lying and being diplomatic, for example:

HER: "Is my bum big?"

He has three choices:

LIE: "No, its not."

TRUTH: "Yes, its as wide as the Rama 8 bridge"

DIPLOMACY: "I haven't noticed any change."

Liar. No bum is as wide as the Rama 8 bridge.

If it looks fine, ok, tell her. If it looks a bit big say it. If it looks too big, say it. If they ask a stupid question, tell them that, etc.

Some real honesty is refreshing.

"Am I getting fat?"

"Ya, a bit, but you still look good".

She will read your facial expression as you say this, and feel both your love for her as well as your apprehension of her getting any fatter. All that was needed to be said was said - no need for a lie, no need to be hurtful.

I'd love an example of where even a white lie is called for.

There have been times when I've been out of shape, or had a belly bigger by beer. "I'm getting fat!" she exclaims. "Ya, me too!". I don't want to be fat, and I don't want her fat. It's not some trauma to see a mirror, or to hear in words what the mirror says. We don't need our egos packed in tissue paper and styrofoam and crated away safely. Yes, fat. Fat doesn't explode. Yes, you are getting a little fat.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[tutsiwarrior]

'I'd love an example of where even a white lie is called for.'

'you lie like a dog , you falang blackguard...'

Edited January 19, 2007 by tutsiwarrior

[jamman]

We don't do the white lies either:

"Does this shirt make me look fat?"

(perfect ironic back-beat) "No, but it doesn't hide it as well as that other one..."

I'm envious of your sympatico. Good job. A mate you can trade irony with - that's poetic finesse - that adds art to life's moments.

[jamman]

Well said. As far as the thai cultural lying to save face it is the truth. Here is an example that convinced my wife. We went on a trip. We were lost. We asked for directions. The thai person lied to us. Sent us on a wild goose chase. The next person lied to us. Tried to send us back to where we had just been....

Sounds very frustrating. Totally mental. Delusional even. "Yes, I know, and now I will tell you what I know, to help you". By adult standarts, it's so develepmentally impaired as to be near insanity. Here, take my lie, and take it as if my lie has any reality to it. Living in a mental dream, as if there was not a real world that words were meant to reference. Playing pretend. Having speech be segmented from emotion, which is segmented from perceptions - segmented mind, like a segmented orange. Not whole, not holistic - everything dreamily separate. Fragmented, ignorant, cowardly children.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[jamman]

'I'd love an example of where even a white lie is called for.'

'you lie like a dog , you falang blackguard...'

I feel so foolish right now. Because your words have put me at a loss. I can't guess what you are trying to accomplish, what you are trying to mean. Are you trying to have a dialogue? Are you trying to somehow embarass me? I honestly don't have the social skills to tell.

I tend to start with the assumption that people enjoy diologue - although most "conversations" show opposite trends.

So, I don't know how to respond, or if I should.

[longway]

Well said. As far as the thai cultural lying to save face it is the truth. Here is an example that convinced my wife. We went on a trip. We were lost. We asked for directions. The thai person lied to us. Sent us on a wild goose chase. The next person lied to us. Tried to send us back to where we had just been....

Sounds very frustrating. Totally mental. Delusional even. "Yes, I know, and now I will tell you what I know, to help you". By adult standarts, it's so develepmentally impaired as to be near insanity. Here, take my lie, and take it as if my lie has any reality to it. Delusion, delusion, delusion - as if there was not a real world that words were meant to reference.

u hv to watch their body language, usually its apparent that they dont know, if its unclear then stop and ask again.

i have to ask for directions alot

this should be part of the been in thailand too long thread.

u know uve been in thailand too long if when ur asked for directions u give them even if dont know urself, just coz u dont want to seem unhelpful.

btw this western people value the truth and thais dont thing is well...a lie. or just deluded.

[jamman]

Well said. As far as the thai cultural lying to save face it is the truth. Here is an example that convinced my wife. We went on a trip. We were lost. We asked for directions. The thai person lied to us. Sent us on a wild goose chase. The next person lied to us. Tried to send us back to where we had just been....

Sounds very frustrating. Totally mental. Delusional even. "Yes, I know, and now I will tell you what I know, to help you". By adult standarts, it's so develepmentally impaired as to be near insanity. Here, take my lie, and take it as if my lie has any reality to it. Delusion, delusion, delusion - as if there was not a real world that words were meant to reference.

u hv to watch their body language, usually its apparent that they dont know, if its unclear then stop and ask again.

i have to ask for directions alot

I usually catch it on the hems and the haws, and then cut it short with "oh, you don't know? Ok, thanks, bye." I don't hang around for people to gather all their friends to stare attentively at the puzzle of a map, or of the name of a place. It only takes about one second to know if you know something.

[Artfullmover]

Thai's and F'n Lies?

One thing thats sets the Thai's apart is they can be dead honest or go the complete other way. When threated they have the intendacy to clam up or feed you a banquet of bullshit without too much thought if are you are buying it or not, Most soft C.....s ( Male chickens) dont put up much of a challenge and the rest tend to give to much of the benifit of the doubt.

In summary the average thai girl, when the heat is on will start to lean toward the teachings of buddha ( take care of number one) and block there thoughts of your feelings out as a thing of yesterday or something best not thought about, best to think if the future. The sad fact is that they will take a fair bit of crap and do some personal suffering from someone who has the finaces and the will to support them. When your in that situation how can you really know who your partner really is and how much can you rely on them to stand by you in difficult times.

The best thing to do when your in doubt is play it cool gather facts and when they mount up move on. No point in confrontation it more than likely than not end up with you being left with nothing except frustration. Also an understanding of Buddism is a great way to understand the rules of engagement. Once you have an understanding of that it will level the playing field. ( to some degree at least).

Yes Thai girls are pretty much the same as all others. The only thing that really sets them apart is the circumstances they find them self in and there beliefs in the teaching of buddah.

I love the Thai girls for who they are and are very much attached to one. When thing are good they are Very good, when things are bad one should always face facts.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Artfullmover

[longway]

Well said. As far as the thai cultural lying to save face it is the truth. Here is an example that convinced my wife. We went on a trip. We were lost. We asked for directions. The thai person lied to us. Sent us on a wild goose chase. The next person lied to us. Tried to send us back to where we had just been....

Sounds very frustrating. Totally mental. Delusional even. "Yes, I know, and now I will tell you what I know, to help you". By adult standarts, it's so develepmentally impaired as to be near insanity. Here, take my lie, and take it as if my lie has any reality to it. Delusion, delusion, delusion - as if there was not a real world that words were meant to reference.

u hv to watch their body language, usually its apparent that they dont know, if its unclear then stop and ask again.

i have to ask for directions alot

I usually catch it on the hems and the haws, and then cut it short with "oh, you don't know? Ok, thanks, bye." I don't hang around for people to gather all their friends to stare attentively at the puzzle of a map, or of the name of a place. It only takes about one second to know if you know something.

all they are doing is trying to help u.

i usually end up getting very good directions, even get escorted to where i need to go on occasion.

In summary the average thai girl, when the heat is on will start to lean toward the teachings of buddha ( take care of number one)

my friend that is so wrong that i am not sure where to begin. if you are interested in buddhism i hope you will look into it a bit deeper.

'what the buddha taught' is a good book i believe. theres book by karen armstrong which i think is also very good, i forget the exact name, but it shoudlnt be too hard to pick out.

Edited January 19, 2007 by longway

[tutsiwarrior]

'I'd love an example of where even a white lie is called for.'

'you lie like a dog , you falang blackguard...'

I feel so foolish right now. Because your words have put me at a loss. I can't guess what you are trying to accomplish, what you are trying to mean. Are you trying to have a dialogue? Are you trying to somehow embarass me? I honestly don't have the social skills to tell.

I tend to start with the assumption that people enjoy diologue - although most "conversations" show opposite trends.

So, I don't know how to respond, or if I should.

nah...it's just juxtaposition (white lies/blackguards) and poetic license in all of it's brutal majesty...

[pap]

Cultural differences and saying Thais are liars is not the same thing. The concept of face is not the same definition as lying in a non western mind. Anyone who thinks this does not truly understand the concept. And using cultural differences or face as an excuse to lie is not common either. Thais are no more or less honest than any other people I have come across. If I think everyone around me is lying maybe I should check the company I am keeping.

Try doing business in China or Japan then go to Morocco. You will very clearly see a difference. I you could easily believe each of them was lying if you only viewed things from your own perspective unless of course you were Chinese, Japanese or Moroccan.

You either accept the differences or you don't. But it is important to understand Face or what a lie IS from the cultural context you are in. Saying we all know right from wrong is a cop out. Not the other way around. Right and wrong also differ for each culture.

That is not to say we don't have commonalities in our cultures but those commonalities are not as pervasive as one might think.

Again, for the purposes of this discussion what you can live with is what matters.

[Jet Gorgon]

Hog shed, eh, Terry? Laughing at my dental package, still? Payback time. And just so you won't get lonely, I'm lumping Tutsi in there with ya.

Tutsi and Terry trussed up by ex-wives in a tree,

Along comes a white chick out to take a pee,

Looks round, sees no-one, strips and squats to wee.

Tutsi and Terry strain to lookey see.

Tutsi says to Terry, "Think she'll set us free?"

"Looks like my ex-wife, probly charge a fee."

The lady completes her comfort task, looks up in the tree.

"EEK, I bet you boys were ogling me!"

Terry says yes, Tutsi says maybe.

2021, and still they hang in the tree,

Tutsi and Terry, the honest wannabees.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Jet Gorgon

[jamman]

Cultural differences and saying Thais are liars is not the same thing. The concept of face is not the same definition as lying in a non western mind. Anyone who thinks this does not truly understand the concept. And using cultural differences or face as an excuse to lie is not common either. Thais are no more or less honest than any other people I have come across. If I think everyone around me is lying maybe I should check the company I am keeping.

Try doing business in China or Japan then go to Morocco. You will very clearly see a difference. I you could easily believe each of them was lying if you only viewed things from your own perspective unless of course you were Chinese, Japanese or Moroccan.

You either accept the differences or you don't. But it is important to understand Face or what a lie IS from the cultural context you are in. Saying we all know right from wrong is a cop out. Not the other way around. Right and wrong also differ for each culture.

That is not to say we don't have commonalities in our cultures but those commonalities are not as pervasive as one might think.

Again, for the purposes of this discussion what you can live with is what matters.

I'm trying to grok you, so I will paraphrase. You are saying that what, from the outside, seems like a lie, from the subjective inside of the person "lying" is not a lie. And that if we could embody their culture, we would understand that they are not lying. They are just operating under different cultural assumptions - that they all undersand - no one is fooled.

An analalogy might be Jewish diamanond merchants. They spend a few hours haggling towards the exact price that they know will be reached in any case. Both people feign ignorance, feign outrage, feign all sorts of seemingly advantageous emotions, and all along know the final outcome.

Am I paraphrasing you? That within a culture, within an individual, these seeming lies are just the outward show of a game everyone knows that everyone else is playing? That if you are in the culture, the lies are transparent, and irrelevent?

If I got that right, I disagree, and the proof is in the pudding.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[jamman]

all they are doing is trying to help u.

i usually end up getting very good directions, even get escorted to where i need to go on occasion.

I don't doubt your experience.

What do you make of the many people who had the different, famous, archtypical, stereotypical one?

Do you make anything of it?

I understand that their experience and yours differs. But is it a fact that they had their experience? What of that? Did they cause it? Were they Thai Pupeteers, controlling the Thais with their bad social behaviour? Do Thais have any culpability, and did they act, in relation to these people?

How to incorparate in our understanding these many stories of locals giving bad directions? You don't have that experience, yes, but then?

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[pap]

Cultural differences and saying Thais are liars is not the same thing. The concept of face is not the same definition as lying in a non western mind. Anyone who thinks this does not truly understand the concept. And using cultural differences or face as an excuse to lie is not common either. Thais are no more or less honest than any other people I have come across. If I think everyone around me is lying maybe I should check the company I am keeping.

Try doing business in China or Japan then go to Morocco. You will very clearly see a difference. I you could easily believe each of them was lying if you only viewed things from your own perspective unless of course you were Chinese, Japanese or Moroccan.

You either accept the differences or you don't. But it is important to understand Face or what a lie IS from the cultural context you are in. Saying we all know right from wrong is a cop out. Not the other way around. Right and wrong also differ for each culture.

That is not to say we don't have commonalities in our cultures but those commonalities are not as pervasive as one might think.

Again, for the purposes of this discussion what you can live with is what matters.

I'm trying to grok you, so I will paraphrase. You are saying that what, from the outside, seems like a lie, from the subjective inside of the person "lying" is not a lie. And that if we could embody their culture, we would understand that they are not lying. They are just operating under different cultural assumptions - that they all undersand - no one is fooled.

An analalogy might be Jewish diamanond merchants. They spend a few hours haggling towards the exact price that they know will be reached in any case. Both people feign ignorance, feign outrage, feign all sorts of seemingly advantageous emotions, and all along know the final outcome.

Am I paraphrasing you? That within a culture, within an individual, these seeming lies are just the outward show of a game everyone knows that everyone else is playing? That if you are in the culture, the lies are transparent, and irrelevent?

If I got that right, I disagree, and the proof is in the pudding.

Your example is fairly accurate although this method doesn't work for me. It seems to work for more than half the world. Shear force of numbers does not make something right. But it sure can't be ignored either.

[Bruce1]

I think part of the challenge of figuring out other people (Thai and others) is working out the unstated meaning behind their questions and statements. For instance, when a woman asks, "Is my bum fat?" she often really wants to know "Do you still want me?" To answer both "Yes" or "No" is wrong cause if you say either she'll read that as "You don't want me". So the real answer she wants is for you to put your arms around her, give her a tender kiss and say "Come to bed". She'll inevitably say, "You only want sex" (Duh!) and probably refuse, but it doesn't matter if she refuses, cause inside she's pleased you still want her - even though she knows her bum really is getting fat.

It's the same with us blokes. When we say, "I'm going to the pub/going to play golf etc" what we're really saying is, "I need a bit of time out to evaluate where I'm up to in this relationship." If she doesn't get your message, she'll say, "You're spending a lot of time away from me", which will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If she gets your message, she'll say, "Hurry back cause I bought a new nightie I want to model for you", thus ensuring you'll come home early.

I doubt if Thai women are much different to other women in this, but what do you think?

[wolfmanjack]

Cultural differences and saying Thais are liars is not the same thing. The concept of face is not the same definition as lying in a non western mind. Anyone who thinks this does not truly understand the concept. And using cultural differences or face as an excuse to lie is not common either. Thais are no more or less honest than any other people I have come across. If I think everyone around me is lying maybe I should check the company I am keeping.

Try doing business in China or Japan then go to Morocco. You will very clearly see a difference. I you could easily believe each of them was lying if you only viewed things from your own perspective unless of course you were Chinese, Japanese or Moroccan.

You either accept the differences or you don't. But it is important to understand Face or what a lie IS from the cultural context you are in. Saying we all know right from wrong is a cop out. Not the other way around. Right and wrong also differ for each culture.

That is not to say we don't have commonalities in our cultures but those commonalities are not as pervasive as one might think.

Again, for the purposes of this discussion what you can live with is what matters.

I think someone earlier disputed that not telling the truth was part of thai culture. I have read many books on thai culture and they ALL mention that to lie to make someone feel good id ok. One example i read sticks in my mind. IT was a rsvp issue where the person was having a dinner party and needed to know how many people to order steaks for. The thai would say they are coming so you feel good when they get the news and then feel bad when they do not show up. This way it balances out. If they say no they can not come then you feel bad when they tell you no and then feel bad again when they do not show up. Feeling bad twice is worse than feeling bad once even though you spent extra money for steak because they said they would come.

My pet peeve is from suppliers that tell me they will deliver tomorrow. Then the next day tell me tomorrow again. I used to get this for an entire month until I would drive to their place and see they have not even started on a project that takes several days to finish. Many times they have an order from someone else and they KNOW it will be a month before they finish that order and can even start on mine.

Now i give them a deadline and if it isn't finished by that time i order it from another supplier. In every case they deliver the order anyway and want paid. Many times they show up with the order after the container has already left then get angry or pretend to get angry when I do not accept the order. This has been going on for 10 years and has not changed with most of the suppliers. A few will come right out and tell me that they can not start on an order until so and so date but most will take the order knowing that they can not finish on time. I accept this as part of doing business here.

[tutsiwarrior]

Hog shed, eh, Terry? Laughing at my dental package, still? Payback time. And just so you won't get lonely, I'm lumping Tutsi in there with ya.

Tutsi and Terry trussed up by ex-wives in a tree,

Along comes a white chick out to take a pee,

Looks round, sees no-one, strips and squats to wee.

Tutsi and Terry strain to lookey see.

Tutsi says to Terry, "Think she'll set us free?"

"Looks like my ex-wife, probly charge a fee."

The lady completes her comfort task, looks up in the tree.

"EEK, I bet you boys were ogling me!"

Terry says yes, Tutsi says maybe.

2021, and still they hang in the tree,

Tutsi and Terry, the honest wannabees.

tutsi is immortalised once again on thai visa...whaddabout you, terry?

[TAWP]

The first time was in the 'Don't accept checks from these people'-thread.

[longway]

all they are doing is trying to help u.

i usually end up getting very good directions, even get escorted to where i need to go on occasion.

I don't doubt your experience.

What do you make of the many people who had the different, famous, archtypical, stereotypical one?

Do you make anything of it?

I understand that their experience and yours differs. But is it a fact that they had their experience? What of that? Did they cause it? Were they Thai Pupeteers, controlling the Thais with their bad social behaviour? Do Thais have any culpability, and did they act, in relation to these people?

How to incorparate in our understanding these many stories of locals giving bad directions? You don't have that experience, yes, but then?

I never denied that u sometimes get bad directions ( i think u need to re-read my post), but it doesnt take much to figure out whether someone knows something or not. i was just pointing out that if u have a bit of patience, u r likely get the information u require.

at the end of the day i am just glad that i havent been so traumatised by the experince of asking for directions that i will never ask for directions from a thai again the darlings.

im here because its different from home. what about you?

in terms of this lying/face business i tend to agree with p&p, i dont think that thais are less or more honest than anyone else, but they may approach an issue with different priorities. there are many truths, not just one. i hate to sound vague like this, but cant express it any better.

[Bruce1]

I think they're a bit like the Japanese. Sometime they say "Yes" meaning "Yes I hear you" when we wanted them to say "Yes, that's OK" or something similar.

[jamman]

One example i read sticks in my mind. IT was a rsvp issue where the person was having a dinner party and needed to know how many people to order steaks for. The thai would say they are coming so you feel good when they get the news and then feel bad when they do not show up. This way it balances out. If they say no they can not come then you feel bad when they tell you no and then feel bad again when they do not show up. Feeling bad twice is worse than feeling bad once even though you spent extra money for steak because they said they would come.

I've had something similar hapen, again and again and with different "girlfriends", here in Bali. Once or twice, I can put up with, but many times, again and again and it pisses me off to the point of breaking up.

I've heard some locals say that standing someone up for date is NOT cool. So there seem to be different mindsets here - and I know which I prefer.