proof of residence for British passport renewal

[webfact]

UK government questions Scottish bid to show Britain can alone revoke Brexit

By Elisabeth O'Leary

 

Protesters wave the EU and Union flags outside the Palace of Westminster, London, Britain, December 20, 2017. REUTERS/Peter Nicholls/Files

 

EDINBURGH (Reuters) - The British government believes the question of whether it alone can stop Brexit is irrelevant, since it does not intend to change its mind about leaving the European Union, according to its response to a legal challenge by Scottish lawmakers opposed to Brexit.

 

In a court document seen by Reuters, Theresa May's government submitted its legal response to the challenge filed by a group of anti-Brexit Scottish lawmakers at Scotland's Court of Session, its supreme civil court. Now the court must decide within a two-week period whether a full hearing should be called.

 

The petitioners seek to show that Britain can, if the case arises, change its mind about leaving the world's biggest trading bloc and do so alone.

 

They say if that were the case, Britain's bargaining position would be strengthened because it would not have to kowtow to the demands of the other 27 EU members to rejoin.

 

May formally notified the EU of Britain's intention to leave by triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty on March 29 last year, starting a two-year exit process.

 

She has said she will not tolerate any attempt in parliament to block it. But British lawmakers defied the government in December by voting against May's wishes and securing parliament a much more substantial say on whether to accept the final Brexit deal.

 

The 21-page court document, sent as a response from Britain's Brexit Minister David Davis, argued that the petitioners had failed to provide proper grounds. "There not being a genuine dispute as to the proper construction of Article 50(2) TEU, the orders sought should be refused."

 

A spokeswoman for the UK government had no immediate comment.

 

Britons voted 51.9 percent to leave the EU in June 2016, and May is currently drawing up a plan for Britain's prospective trade deal with the EU after Brexit happens.

 

"What would be terrible would be for parliament to decide it doesn't like the (Brexit) deal the government has managed to do and it fell a long way short of what the people were promised in the referendum campaign and for no one to know what that meant," Jo Maugham QC, who has crowd-funded the petition, told Reuters.

 

"It would be enormously disruptive to the political and economic life of the whole of the European Union," he said.

 

"What we can't know is when the question (of revoking) will arise or whether the question will arise. What we can know is that we will bloody well wish (the question) was answered before it had arisen" he said.

 

Separately, a legal source told Reuters that a Labour lawmaker was preparing a letter of support from other lawmakers for the Scottish Brexit litigation.

 

Scotland's supreme civil judicial body will now decide whether the case goes to hearing and, eventually, to the European Court of Justice to make a final decision. It may have a bearing on whether or not Brexit happens and how it happens, if public opinion should change.

 

"The government want us to believe that you either accept the deal on offer or you crash out on March 29 2019 with no deal" said Joanna Cherry QC, one of the petitioners and lawmaker for the Scottish National Party.

 

"Both (European Council President) Donald Tusk and (French President Emmanuel) Macron have in the past week mentioned the possibility that the UK could still change its mind about leaving, the implication being that such a change of mind would be acceptable to (other EU members)."

 

Since the referendum, opponents of Brexit at home and abroad have said Britain could change its mind legally and avoid what they say will be disastrous consequences for the economy.

 

(Reporting by Elisabeth O'Leary, Editing by William Maclean)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-01-22

[nauseus]

Sounds like Cherry picking!

[Baerboxer]

19 hours ago, nauseus said:

Sounds like Cherry picking!

 

What?

 

The Scottish challenge is correct. The UK can revoke its notice to leave as long as it does so before the 2019 2 year deadline. Tusk and Juncker have both recently reminded the UK government of that deadline whilst expressing their hopes the UK would do so. Macron and Merkel have previously said they hoped the UK would stay too.

 

But May's government don't want that publicizing in case there is a groundswell of public opinion against leaving or demanding a new referendum.  

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What?

 

The Scottish challenge is correct. The UK can revoke its notice to leave as long as it does so before the 2019 2 year deadline. Tusk and Juncker have both recently reminded the UK government of that deadline whilst expressing their hopes the UK would do so. Macron and Merkel have previously said they hoped the UK would stay too.

 

But May's government don't want that publicizing in case there is a groundswell of public opinion against leaving or demanding a new referendum.  

"The government want us to believe that you either accept the deal on offer or you crash out on March 29 2019 with no deal" said Joanna Cherry QC, one of the petitioners and lawmaker for the Scottish National Party.

[Baerboxer]

Just now, nauseus said:

"The government want us to believe that you either accept the deal on offer or you crash out on March 29 2019 with no deal" said Joanna Cherry QC, one of the petitioners and lawmaker for the Scottish National Party.

 

And she's right I think.

[nauseus]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

And she's right I think.

OMG. 

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

OMG. 

 

I've given up any expectations of the May government showing morals, ethics and the truthfulness expected of a UK government. Left to them it will be a shambles; they will likely be punished by the electorate; that could lead to a Clown Corbyn government that would positively help the SNP try and break the UK up and also try and push Northern Ireland to Eire. 

 

OMG is and understatement!

 

And Boris basks in the glory of his lies!

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I've given up any expectations of the May government showing morals, ethics and the truthfulness expected of a UK government. Left to them it will be a shambles; they will likely be punished by the electorate; that could lead to a Clown Corbyn government that would positively help the SNP try and break the UK up and also try and push Northern Ireland to Eire. 

 

OMG is and understatement!

 

And Boris basks in the glory of his lies!

If you look up to my "Cherry picking" reference post, you might see that this was an (obviously poor) attempt of mine at a bit of humour.

 

Never mind. I agree about May and Co but the alternative is truly too scary to consider.

 

But "Windy Miller" (not Gina) Maugham is just an attention-grabbing europhile, who having already failed to obstruct Brexit via the Irish route now tries via Scotland.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6100aa8e-4483-11e7-8519-9f94ee97d996

 

Cherry, is an SNP MP who's attempts at Brexit blocking are no surprise, I suppose. 

The SNP want Scottish independence only to pass it right back ++ to the EU.

Oh well.

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

If you look up to my "Cherry picking" reference post, you might see that this was an (obviously poor) attempt of mine at a bit of humour.

 

Never mind. I agree about May and Co but the alternative is truly too scary to consider.

 

But "Windy Miller" (not Gina) Maugham is just an attention-grabbing europhile, who having already failed to obstruct Brexit via the Irish route now tries via Scotland.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6100aa8e-4483-11e7-8519-9f94ee97d996

 

Cherry, is an SNP MP who's attempts at Brexit blocking are no surprise, I suppose. 

The SNP want Scottish independence only to pass it right back ++ to the EU.

Oh well.

 

Cherry Picking - sorry sport, didn't see the wood for the trees!

 

Sadly, despite all their denials, the SNP are full of anti English bigots. They'd hand control over to anyone but the hated English. Many Scots know that about them thankfully.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Cherry Picking - sorry sport, didn't see the wood for the trees!

 

Sadly, despite all their denials, the SNP are full of anti English bigots. They'd hand control over to anyone but the hated English. Many Scots know that about them thankfully.

It's OK - it's still early!

 

[dunroaming]

I think that May has dug herself a very big hole and is now in such a bad place.  She has played her cards like a game of snap with ill thought out sound bites and posturing and now she has very few cards left.

 

OK enough of the analogies.  The transition period will be on the same lines as the Norway agreement with the UK abiding by the single market and custom union rules but no seat at the table.  That has tentatively been agreed.  After the transition nothing is agreed yet.  

 

Given that is it a surprise that so many are looking for a way to halt all of this?

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

"The government want us to believe that you either accept the deal on offer or you crash out on March 29 2019 with no deal" said Joanna Cherry QC, one of the petitioners and lawmaker for the Scottish National Party.

What does her party affiliation have to do with anything, or do you only support democracy when it is in your favour?

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

Sadly, despite all their denials, the SNP are full of anti English bigots. They'd hand control over to anyone but the hated English. Many Scots know that about them thankfully.

Those words are either utterly shameful lies designed to dengrate that which you fear, or they demonstrate a complete failure on your part to understand Scottish politics and the Scottish independence movement, despite years of opportunity to better educate yourself.

 

It is easy to come away from reading comments on TV with a sense of bewilderment at some of the posts I read, but it is rare that one offends me as much as yours does. I will repeat the same proposition I have, sadly, had to ask too many times - provide evidence that "the SNP are full of anti English bigots".

[joebrown]

I'm not surprised by Bearboxer's post. Maybe I mix with Scots who are not representative of the way the majority of Scots think, behave or vote. I can only assume that they vote into power the people that represent and support their opinions and aspirations.

I'm a UK expat and I have often been disgusted by the overt dislike shown by Scots towards English teams, in any form of international competition. This usually manifests itself in the form of Scots' support any team opposing England. This isn't an isolated instance . Maybe I only come into contact with non-representative Scots.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, joebrown said:

I'm not surprised by Bearboxer's post. Maybe I mix with Scots who are not representative of the way the majority of Scots think, behave or vote. I can only assume that they vote into power the people that represent and support their opinions and aspirations.

I'm a UK expat and I have often been disgusted by the overt dislike shown by Scots towards English teams, in any form of international competition. This usually manifests itself in the form of Scots' support any team opposing England. This isn't an isolated instance . Maybe I only come into contact with non-representative Scots.

While I would never condone any sort of anti-English or anti-anyone sentiment, rightly or wrongly there seems always to have been a rivalry between home nation countries when it comes to sporting events. In the same way that many Rangers fans would never express support for Celtic under any circumstance, or many Man City Fans would, likewise, never support Man Utd, there exists a petty side to people which emerges during sporting events. It isn't only from Scotland towards England - we haven't had much football success to provide examples in recent years but look at the abuse Andy Murray gets for being Scottish.

 

But does that rivalry extend beyond the pitch and into every day life? There will always be idiots with a chip on their shoulder, looking for someone to blame for their own misfortunes, but I would contest that they are very much in the minority, and they are not restricted to Scotland.

 

Scottish nationalism is nothing about identity or flags, but everything about self determination and the right to set our own direction.

[joebrown]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

While I would never condone any sort of anti-English or anti-anyone sentiment, rightly or wrongly there seems always to have been a rivalry between home nation countries when it comes to sporting events. In the same way that many Rangers fans would never express support for Celtic under any circumstance, or many Man City Fans would, likewise, never support Man Utd, there exists a petty side to people which emerges during sporting events. It isn't only from Scotland towards England - we haven't had much football success to provide examples in recent years but look at the abuse Andy Murray gets for being Scottish.

 

But does that rivalry extend beyond the pitch and into every day life? There will always be idiots with a chip on their shoulder, looking for someone to blame for their own misfortunes, but I would contest that they are very much in the minority, and they are not restricted to Scotland.

 

Scottish nationalism is nothing about identity or flags, but everything about self determination and the right to set our own direction.

Maybe I only mix with "idiots with a chip on their shoulder". Sorry, I don't think so.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, joebrown said:

Maybe I only mix with "idiots with a chip on their shoulder". Sorry, I don't think so.

I have no idea where you are from, but regardless of which of the UK countries you come from, my first questin would be 'why do you mix with these people if they have such foul views?'.

 

As I mentioned, in a sporting context it seems to be something people revel in - can you explain how it manifests itself into the everyday world? Your words suggest that there is a significant problem, but I have been asking the many people who make such assertions on TV for specific examples since 2014 and the only credible response I can recall was one person who said that, as a squaddie in the 1960's, someone in Ayr told him to go back to England.

 

I could, if I felt it relevant, provide examples of English abuse directed towards Scots in general, but I know that this is not a common occurrence and I know it is not a commonly held point of view. Unfortunately, the myth that Scottish Nationalism is about England is proving difficult to clear up.

[aright]

35 minutes ago, joebrown said:

Maybe I only mix with "idiots with a chip on their shoulder". Sorry, I don't think so.

Yes you must do. I visit Scotland at least twice a year and  always experience a warm welcome from existing friends and new people I meet. In the pub the old game of sporting one upmanship is played  but its simple banter said with a smile and never designed to be serious, hurtful or cutting. I am no fan of the SNP but the conversations I have with the Scots on politics are always civilised as they are with European friends.

I voted to leave the EU not because I hate the Germans ,French and Italians in fact I have a great deal of respect for them. My reasons for leaving the EU are the same as the SNP reason for leaving the UK...........we will be better off without them. I disagree but respect their view. 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by aright

[joebrown]

33 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I have no idea where you are from, but regardless of which of the UK countries you come from, my first questin would be 'why do you mix with these people if they have such foul views?'.

 

As I mentioned, in a sporting context it seems to be something people revel in - can you explain how it manifests itself into the everyday world? Your words suggest that there is a significant problem, but I have been asking the many people who make such assertions on TV for specific examples since 2014 and the only credible response I can recall was one person who said that, as a squaddie in the 1960's, someone in Ayr told him to go back to England.

 

I could, if I felt it relevant, provide examples of English abuse directed towards Scots in general, but I know that this is not a common occurrence and I know it is not a commonly held point of view. Unfortunately, the myth that Scottish Nationalism is about England is proving difficult to clear up.

You want examples, here they are : _

1. Colin Montgomerie - being interviewed on US TV as a golf panelist at a major competition. The subject turned from golf to football.....Monty derided England's chances in the next international tournament. Scotland hadn't qualified for the tournament. Let's not forget Montie's contribution to golf in general and his major success as captain of the Ryder Cup Team, which had English players in the European team.

2. I once worked for a logistics company distributing demonstation vehicles to corporate clients. I was the passenger in a car being driven by a co-employee Scot. I was taken aback by his solemn, but gloating pronouncement that the motorway next to Stirling Castle was built over the site of the Battle of Bannockburn. He then laughed when he said we're driving over the graves of English invaders.

3. Whilst in Cyprus I visited a hotel with a friend and noticed a TV in the bar was showing a rugby match between Scotland and Ireland. I was neutral, but my English friend asked me to support Ireland, because that was his grandmother's country of birth. As the game progressed Ireland gained the upper hand and at half time we visited the toilet. On the way into the boys' room we were confronted by an irate Scot who threatened physical violence because we weren't supporting his team. My friend had to explain about his grandmother's heritage.

4.  I have a friend, a wealthy factory owner in Yorkshire whose Facebook ID is a photo of a roadside sign (A74) which is on the border. It says welcome to Scotland and is appended by his comment  "The best thing I've seen in England".

As you can see, these incidents are not all sport related, but I understand your comment that many are.

Edited January 23, 2018 by joebrown
Incomplete original post. Spelling mistake

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, joebrown said:

You want examples, here they are : _

1. Colin Montgomerie - being interviewed on US TV as a golf panelist at a major competition. The subject turned from golf to football.....Monty derided England's chances in the next international tournament. Scotland hadn't qualified for the tournament. Let's not forget Montie's contribution to golf in general and his major success as captain of the Ryder Cup Team, which had English players in the European team.

2. I once worked for a logistics company distributing demonstation vehicles to corporate clients. I was the passenger in a car being driven by a co-employee Scot. I was taken aback by his solemn, but gloating pronouncement that the motorway next to Stirling Castle was built over the site of the Battle of Bannockburn. He then laughed when he said we're driving over the graves of English invaders.

3. Whilst in Cyprus I visited a hotel with a friend and noticed a TV in the bar was showing a rugby match between Scotland and Ireland. I was neutral, but my English friend asked me to support Ireland, because that was his grandmother's country of birth. As the game progressed Ireland gained the upper hand and at half time we visited the toilet. On the way into the boys' room we were confronted by an irate Scot who threatened physical violence because we weren't supporting his team. My friend had to explain about his grandmother's heritage.

4.  I have a friend, a wealthy factory owner in Yorkshire whose Facebook ID is a photo of a roadside sign (A74) which is on the border. It says welcome to Scotland and is appended by his comment' The best thing I've seen in England".

 

I am not sure what I am meant to conclude from the above. As I said, I could reel of similar anecdotal examples of English sentiment against Scots (and many other people) but I see it as pointless because I know that it does not represent the majority of English, and it possibly doesn't even represent the individual who was maybe just making a bad joke. But let's take a quick review:

 

1) Sports; public figure making an attempt at what I assume would have been a jocular comment. Let's face it, even if he did hate the English (which I doubt very much) he knows that public support is key to his professional and commercial success so he is hardly likely to reveal his true emotions on television.

2) While I cannot comment on the individual, it sounds like a poor attempt at humour on his part. If this was a reflection on his general outlook, I can accept differently about him.

3) Another sporting situation and a possibly drunken man who, if sober, hopefully saw how pathetic he was being. Alcohol and the sun tends to bring the worst out in some people.

4) I presume a joke, like the hundreds or thousands of Facebook jokes that exist poking gentle fun at people of all origins. If you take them seriously and subsequently categorise almost half the Scottish electorate as bigots as a result of these instances then I probably am unable to change your mind.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

What does her party affiliation have to do with anything, or do you only support democracy when it is in your favour?

Nothing. I was having a joke initially but now, realising that I am surrounded by Les Miserables, I wished I hadn't bothered!

 

Carry on and Keep Moping.

[dunroaming]

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman walk into a pub.....  The opening line of many a joke and probably containing a lighthearted dig at one of the nationalities involved.  In my view it is because we have a good relationship with our neighbours that we can laugh at all our foibles 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nothing. I was having a joke initially but now, realising that I am surrounded by Les Miserables, I wished I hadn't bothered!

 

Carry on and Keep Moping.

Apologies - I notice that you highlighted her name rather than her party. As you said, too early...

[aright]

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman walk into a pub.....  The opening line of many a joke and probably containing a lighthearted dig at one of the nationalities involved.  In my view it is because we have a good relationship with our neighbours that we can laugh at all our foibles 

The old one's are the best ones.

 

Sitting in a bar the Scotsman says, "As good as this bar is, I still prefer the pubs back home. In Glasgow, there's a wee place. The landlord goes out of his way for the locals. When you buy four drinks, he'll buy the fifth drink."

"Well," said the Englishman, "At my local in London , the barman will buy you your third drink after you buy the first two."

"Ahhh, dat's nothin'," said the Irishman, "back home in my favorite pub, the moment you set foot in the place, they'll buy you a drink, then another, all the drinks you like, actually. Then, when you've had enough drinks, they'll take you upstairs and see that you gets laid, all on the house!"

The Englishman and Scotsman were suspicious of the claims. The Irishman swore every word was true. Then the Englishman asked, "Did this actually happen to you?" "Not to me, personally, no," admitted the Irishman, "but it did happen to me sister quite a few times."

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Apologies - I notice that you highlighted her name rather than her party. As you said, too early...

I was just trying to wake Boxer up with the highlighted hint.

 

As an aside, I am proud to say that among my friends there are several Scots - great people - even the miserable ones are fun sometimes! 

 

 

[Retiredandhappyhere]

 

Ruamrudy said:

look at the abuse Andy Murray gets for being Scottish.

 

This statement took me completely by surprise, since I have never witnessed any such abuse by the media or individuals..  I think the whole of Britain has been proud of Andys achievements and have shown it visibly and vocally in the support he gets wherever he plays.  In fact, he is almost always referred to as British by tennis fans, commentators and the media, which illustrates how they feel about him.  Scotland understandably want to regard him as their own, but the British people recognize him as a member of the larger family first and foremost.

 

What examples can you give of the claimed abuse?

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

 

Ruamrudy said:

look at the abuse Andy Murray gets for being Scottish.

 

This statement took me completely by surprise, since I have never witnessed any such abuse by the media or individuals..  I think the whole of Britain has been proud of Andys achievements and have shown it visibly and vocally in the support he gets wherever he plays.  In fact, he is almost always referred to as British by tennis fans, commentators and the media, which illustrates how they feel about him.  Scotland understandably want to regard him as their own, but the British people recognize him as a member of the larger family first and foremost.

 

What examples can you give of the claimed abuse?

It is pretty well documented, although, to be fair, it seems to have decreased since he won Wimbledon.

 

Police Slam 'Vile' Abuse Directed As Andy Murray Over 'YES' Support
Scottish referendum: Abuse directed at Andy Murray 'vile'

Andy Murray referendum abuse draws police response

[aright]

Resigned to Brexit, Scots push case for staying in single market

• BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Scotland’s government thinks campaigns to halt Brexit have little chance but believes it can persuade British negotiators to try to stay in the European Union’s single market, a senior Scottish minister said on Monday.

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland/resigned-to-brexit-scots-push-case-for-staying-in-single-market-idUKKBN1FB2FS

[aright]

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Tory MP, said: "The SNP lost the referendum and they seem to be forgetting this crucial point.

"This decision smacks of small mindedness and is an affront to the majority of Scots who voted to remain within the UK."

Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said the SNP’s decision to slash the number of flag days was “outrageous”.

He said: “It is insulting to Scottish people to pretend that somehow Scotland is not within the UK.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/23/snp-eradicates-union-flag-scottish-government-buildings-saltire/

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Tory MP, said: "The SNP lost the referendum and they seem to be forgetting this crucial point.

"This decision smacks of small mindedness and is an affront to the majority of Scots who voted to remain within the UK."

Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said the SNP’s decision to slash the number of flag days was “outrageous”.

He said: “It is insulting to Scottish people to pretend that somehow Scotland is not within the UK.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/23/snp-eradicates-union-flag-scottish-government-buildings-saltire/

What about the far higher (in majority terms) percentage of Scots who voted to remain in the EU? Should they be ignored?

 

The 'SNP Bans the Union Flag' story has been splashed across most papers today. Of course, the 'journalists' who copy and paste the press releases they receive from the Tories probably knew it was a lie and that there is no change in the policy of flying the Union Flag as per protocol before they submitted their pieces. Why they chose to use it now? I suspect that they have a calendar of press releases all lined up for the coming months, daily decrying the SNP for various things that never actually happened. I can only assume that they are becoming increasingly alarmed by the realisation of more and more Scots that they would be better served out of the union.