Smoke, Smog, Dust 2018 Chiang Mai

[metisdead]

Some posts have been removed:

 

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[EnlightenedAtheist]

24 minutes ago, XGM said:

Keep sending, and they might eventually... mention you to their friends as a comical episode.

They can laugh, but it remains we are coughing, them included! I wish they could do more than ... laugh and  ... cough!

[canopy]

You just don't get it yet. Excellent solutions are abundant, but no one wants them. You need to understand the mindset you are dealing with here. These people are not like you. The farmers don't want any part of your ideas and solutions even if there are shining models of success and praise elsewhere in the world. It's their land, they do as they please. They burn because they like to and could care less if that poses health concerns to you or anyone else. As far as they are concerned you are the only problem because before you came barging in telling them they could farm better and condemning them about air quality everything was just fine because no one else was complaining. I am not saying they are right or supporting them, just saying that you have to know more about the people here. They don't necessarily do things because it's in their best interest. Far from it. Remember the old saying: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You need to understand what you are trying to do has no chance of working. You can learn this the hard way or the easy way.

 

[CheGuava]

15 hours ago, XGM said:

Keep sending, and they might eventually... mention you to their friends as a comical episode.

 

The post you were replying too seems to be deleted which makes the discussion more difficult.  Which authorities was he contacting and in what way?

 

1 hour ago, canopy said:

You just don't get it yet. Excellent solutions are abundant, but no one wants them. You need to understand the mindset you are dealing with here. These people are not like you. The farmers don't want any part of your ideas and solutions even if there are shining models of success and praise elsewhere in the world. It's their land, they do as they please. They burn because they like to and could care less if that poses health concerns to you or anyone else. 

 

And yet, somehow the farmers in Chiang Rai province didn't burn in February and March (extremely few exceptions).   I'm highly interested to find out how that was achieved.

 

This is the fire data for March (1-24), it is astonishing.

 

Region, with Chiang Rai encircled: 

 

 

And zoomed in (showing a big region  on a firemap gives a slightly wrong impression because each dot covers a big area.)  you can see it almost goes exactly around the provincial border..  What is their secret??

 

 

And yes, this is new.  And no there aren't any freak rain/weather conditions going on this year in Chiang Rai. 

 

Compare with 2016 versus this year:

 

 

Please note:  Chiang Mai has a bigger area than Chiang Rai, but areas of the same size have been used in the graph. (Although the Chiang Mai area has a lot more mountains and forests which is harder to police than flat farmland.) 

 

Either way you can see that the reduction in Chiang Rai is dramatic, compared to a much more modest reduction in Chiang Mai when comparing this year with two years ago.

[XGM]

3 minutes ago, CheGuava said:

The post you were replying too seems to be deleted which makes the discussion more difficult.  Which authorities was he contacting and in what way?

As far as I recall it wasn't any authorities, some academics, friends / neighbors or something of that kind.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

12 hours ago, canopy said:

You just don't get it yet. Excellent solutions are abundant, but no one wants them. You need to understand the mindset you are dealing with here. These people are not like you. The farmers don't want any part of your ideas and solutions even if there are shining models of success and praise elsewhere in the world. It's their land, they do as they please. They burn because they like to and could care less if that poses health concerns to you or anyone else. As far as they are concerned you are the only problem because before you came barging in telling them they could farm better and condemning them about air quality everything was just fine because no one else was complaining. I am not saying they are right or supporting them, just saying that you have to know more about the people here. They don't necessarily do things because it's in their best interest. Far from it. Remember the old saying: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You need to understand what you are trying to do has no chance of working. You can learn this the hard way or the easy way.

 

I can feel your frustration. Yet I got this article sent by a Thai (a lab biochemist at a university here) and the article does mention several Thais who are changing/adapting and using these bright ideas. So, they are not all backwards. I think you would agree with that, of course, even though it is easy to not see any bright lights out there (pun intended).

 

This one lady interviewed by the BP has been growing organically for 8 years and by all accounts she has been spreading the good news in Nan province. Other provinces? She does not seem to be an isolated case either. (This farmer had health problems and now that she eats organic she is better.) So, there is progress. We need more of these stories. How many local papers are spreading the news? So, there are good stories and there are smart Thais out there. Sadly, the systems (1) and some individuals who are no doubt too big to fire (and who need the gravy train to keep running the way it is) put barriers because progress could mean bad news for them. It is going to take time. Who knows? Maybe I am misreading it with my neighbour. Maybe the wheels are already in motion. The losing face issue might be at the core of some of his non-response. He did say "Thank you"! 

 

I am not going to summarize the whole article. Just Google: Bangkok  Post war farm chemicals. The article is really worth reading. It should give you hope.

 

However, how absurd that someone or some organization forbids anyone to copy and paste links to link to a story that could help them increase their membership, even when the source is mentioned (obviously, it is in the link. Duh!) How absurd that we foreigners who have lived here for years or decades must still report every 3 months like criminals. Sadly, the little dictators are at the top and it goes down from there as a result. Everyone is afraid of missing a dot and a comma, of changing a routine for fear of reprisals. Why would some risk it? Some of these guys above are nuts and go nuts, but then, we know that we have these types in the West too. Hitler, Trump, any member of the NRA, ... I mean how many English-speakers are actually knocking at the doors of Buckingham Palace and asking that the absurd and highly flawed English spelling system (both Orwell and Einstein, among many others, came to that conclusion) that everyone must put up with and that causes a lot of harm for a lot of people (everyone who had and will have to learn it, native or not or billions of people)? It has been 250 years and not one reform (except a weak one in the USA) and that one is often mocked by many Brits (and many Americans, btw) as going backwards. Bad spelling system, bad air,... So, with all due respect, from a Thai's perspective, from anyone who knows better about linguistics and education, it might be that we should first clean up our house before asking someone else to clean theirs. To be fair, there are people who are trying to clean. Sadly, they are the minorities. There is the tyranny of the majority (and the vested interest groups) as well as those short terms fixes that make real and efficient progress hard to come by.

 

But we need to model good behavior first. (I fully realize that the odds of a spelling reform is remote, but bad air and bad spelling systems, ... the consequences are dire in both cases.) And, yes, there are loads of reasons that people will use to prevent progress from happening and, yet, there are many great solutions as well. Poetic justice? Just in case anyone doubt this, here is a link.)

[EnlightenedAtheist]

The  Citylife Chiang Mai Magazine is organising a ‘right to breathe’ rally.

It will take place this Friday at 5pm (on March 30) at Tha Pae Gate.

 

More details @ http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/breakingnews/30341736

 

Strangely, there is no information that I can find on the Citylife website. Odd!

 

How many here will attend?

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

An interesting story reported on the Citylife Chiang Mai website about a fire that destroyed apparently 10 rai of forest  at the Huay Tung Tao park/Lake because --apparently-- hunters wanted to force animals into their traps.

 

So, yes, it seems that some people are unaware of or unphased by the dangers that smoke causes to them and others. Maybe they have an antidote! Maybe the hypothesis is false.

 

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/huay-tung-tao-fire-started-hunters-police-claim/

[CheGuava]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:05 AM, XGM said:

As far as I recall it wasn't any authorities, some academics, friends / neighbors or something of that kind.

 

Also good.   That really needs supporting because the effects of course haven't been great; yes the air in Chiang Rai is relatively better, but you need measurements to tell the difference; it's not like their reward was pristine air..  (As of course all the smog drifts in from all around.)

 

They could even point some fingers at their dirty old auntie next door: Chiang Mai. 

[mrmillersr]

42 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

The  Citylife Chiang Mai Magazine is organising a ‘right to breathe’ rally.

It will take place this Friday at 5pm (on March 30) at Tha Pae Gate.

 

More details @ http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/breakingnews/30341736

 

Strangely, there is no information that I can find on the Citylife website. Odd!

 

How many here will attend?

 

 

Total joke.  Nothing about laying down the law and enforcing it against those that like to "burn baby burn". 

 

What the hell good is it to ask that the WHO standards be adopted,  installing more monitoring devices or adding warning systems when the pollution levels get too high.  How does this solve the problem?  It's like saying we're not going to find a cure for cancer but we will find better methods to detect it early so we can tell you how long you've got to live once you have it.

 

This is truly the LOS (land of stupidity) where the real meaning of 'mai pen rai' is we just don't give a sh@t.  If you don't believe that then you are as delusional as those that think this problem will get better before it gets worse.  It won't.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 hour ago, mrmillersr said:

Total joke.  Nothing about laying down the law and enforcing it against those that like to "burn baby burn". 

 

What the hell good is it to ask that the WHO standards be adopted,  installing more monitoring devices or adding warning systems when the pollution levels get too high.  How does this solve the problem?  It's like saying we're not going to find a cure for cancer but we will find better methods to detect it early so we can tell you how long you've got to live once you have it.

 

This is truly the LOS (land of stupidity) where the real meaning of 'mai pen rai' is we just don't give a sh@t.  If you don't believe that then you are as delusional as those that think this problem will get better before it gets worse.  It won't.

I agree with you that it is a weak attempt, but I think that it might be just another of those saving-face routines. At least I am hoping that it is the hidden agenda. Otherwise, I do agree that it is very weak.

 

But, I feel that we have to treat any advance (however small) as positive. We should really encourage this and support this. Is it just for show? Is it to appear to be doing something? In some ways, it is pointing to a problem. If there are (I know there won't be) millions of people showing up, the government will be pissed off at the negative publicity. Trust me. They will be. On the other hand, if only a few hundreds show up, it will be seen as a way to appease the so-called nutbars and tell the rest that something is being done. Hard to know what is the MO. Hard to know what is the turn-out going to be. Hard to know if it is going to be "gently" censured, by covering another graduation ceremony. Sorry! We wanted to show this, but ... there was that road accident. LOL

 

It is something. 

 

Is it the start of something bigger?

 

It is maybe a way to start the dialogue and meet people, plant the seed, other seeds.

 

Maybe this is a baby step to something bigger,. It might make the news and reach some farmers or make a politician, a doctor, a parent think about his kids or grandchildren. Many do not know the difference between the particles, air filtering, filters,... Even the most advanced have puny filters that do little. 

 

Many of the big wigs are in the South, I know, far away from the problem. I know a few. But it is a start. Puny, small. I agree. But it is something to make the news, to get the wheel moving. One inch at a time.

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

The website's editor confirmed that it is happening. They just did not have the time to put it on the website. It is on Facebook. I guess that is more effective. 

[weary]

CheGuava, well spotted about Chiang Rai. The media needs to figure out what is going on. If CR can enforce the burning ban, there is no reason CM could not do the same thing.

[CheGuava]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

I agree with you that it is a weak attempt, but I think that it might be just another of those saving-face routines. At least I am hoping that it is the hidden agenda. Otherwise, I do agree that it is very weak.

 

But, I feel that we have to treat any advance (however small) as positive. We should really encourage this and support this.

 

A couple hundred people would be a really good turnout.   I'm inclined to agree with you.. the actual petition doesn't make much sense: it's not provincial or municipal authorities who define environmental standards and even if they did the WHO target is not achievable in much of the world and especially not in Northern Thailand where it doesn't rain half the year.  

 

They have a tendency to present WHO targets as some 'international standard that should obviously be followed', but think for a moment that 92% of the world is over this target, and if it was actually used as a limit for making policy decisions (canceling events, handing out masks, telling people to stay indoors) then more than half the days everywhere in Thailand would trigger alerts which just isn't feasible.  The petition is actually for a standard that would be MORE strict even than the EU, UK, and US standards..  myeah.. that seems both unlikely and not actually useful to have a limit that is exceeded most days.

 

The WHO realizes this which is why they have interim targets, and those would likely be achievable with incredible, dedicated effort.  The new Thai PM2.5 standard is along those lines: every day in March goes over the limit, but it's worth fighting for.

 

So yeah, it'd be nicer if the petition was actually about something that provincial authorities can actually do something about  (lengthening a burning ban and enforcing it a lot more strictly) but.. in the end I don't think it actually matters.. it's an opportunity for people to make their voices heard and walk around with masks, even when the air may not really be all that bad Friday at 5pm.  

[EnlightenedAtheist]

10 minutes ago, CheGuava said:

 

A couple hundred people would be a really good turnout.   I'm inclined to agree with you.. the actual petition doesn't make much sense: it's not provincial or municipal authorities who define environmental standards and even if they did the WHO target is not achievable in much of the world and especially not in Northern Thailand where it doesn't rain half the year.  

 

They have a tendency to present WHO targets as some 'international standard that should obviously be followed', but think for a moment that 92% of the world is over this target, and if it was actually used as a limit for making policy decisions (canceling events, handing out masks, telling people to stay indoors) then more than half the days everywhere in Thailand would trigger alerts which just isn't feasible.  The petition is actually for a standard that would be MORE strict even than the EU, UK, and US standards..  myeah.. that seems both unlikely and not actually useful to have a limit that is exceeded most days.

 

The WHO realizes this which is why they have interim targets, and those would likely be achievable with incredible, dedicated effort.  The new Thai PM2.5 standard is along those lines: every day in March goes over the limit, but it's worth fighting for.

 

So yeah, it'd be nicer if the petition was actually about something that provincial authorities can actually do something about  (lengthening a burning ban and enforcing it a lot more strictly) but.. in the end I don't think it actually matters.. it's an opportunity for people to make their voices heard and walk around with masks, even when the air may not really be all that bad Friday at 5pm.  

Great comment.

 

Yes, we have to give people a chance to do something. If it is unachievable, they will tune out. I completely agree. In that sense it is too strict, too strong, almost senseless. It looks like this was not well thought through, but it is the opportunity for your voice to be heard and to share your point of view. If we do it diplomatically (and we need to here), they might take the "advice".

 

Anyway, with the mask on, the authorities will not be able to gather much evidence! Let's make sure we wear the right one, not the flimsy one! Can we put a message on it?

[EnlightenedAtheist]

50 minutes ago, weary said:

CheGuava, well spotted about Chiang Rai. The media needs to figure out what is going on. If CR can enforce the burning ban, there is no reason CM could not do the same thing.

True!

 

However, iF hunters are setting things on fire, then it is really hard to "enforce" anything. Is the Huay Tung Tao park/Lake fire out? 

 

Can you check if that fire did not skew the data (for at least a week)? Sorry. I am too busy with another project to check from your posts. 

[SoilSpoil]

14 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

True!

 

However, iF hunters are setting things on fire, then it is really hard to "enforce" anything. Is the Huay Tung Tao park/Lake fire out? 

 

Can you check if that fire did not skew the data (for at least a week)? Sorry. I am too busy with another project to check from your posts. 

The Nasa firemaps show us that forest fires are just a small part of the problem. Most fires were in valleys and point out to slash and burn farming on industrial scale.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 minute ago, SoilSpoil said:

The Nasa firemaps show us that forest fires are just a small part of the problem. Most fires were in valleys and point out to slash and burn farming on industrial scale.

Okay! Thanks!

[SoilSpoil]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Okay! Thanks!

 

There is some hope as most problems are now coming from Myanmar and the number of fires in Thailand is slowly getting lower. There are no detected fires the last 24 hours in both Nan and Chiang Rai, (according to NASA). 

[LolaS]

what a ridiculous observation that farmers and hunters in Thailand are responsible for pollution. Nowhere near the truth.

no data or any scientific evidence that link pollution in chiang mai to those activities.

[SoilSpoil]

10 hours ago, LolaS said:

what a ridiculous observation that farmers and hunters in Thailand are responsible for pollution. Nowhere near the truth.

no data or any scientific evidence that link pollution in chiang mai to those activities.

 

Haha. Love your sarcasm.

[wolfmuc]

On 3/28/2018 at 6:46 AM, SoilSpoil said:

 

Haha. Love your sarcasm.

Might be sarcasm or not.

Any idea what's this?

[wolfmuc]

Sorry, I didn't read this before:

' Fire-fighters and volunteers in Mae Hong Son are battling brush fires along highways and on mountains day and night despite woodlands being officially sealed off.

The fires have for almost five consecutive days smothered the northern province in a haze of small-particle dust that is hazardous to human health... '

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30341929

[canopy]

On 3/27/2018 at 12:08 PM, mrmillersr said:

What the hell good is it to ask that the WHO standards be adopted,  installing more monitoring devices or adding warning systems when the pollution levels get too high.  How does this solve the problem? 

 

Actually I think this is an important first step of the process:

 

1. Measure air quality to identify the scope of the problem

2. Determine what factors are creating the pollution as a pie chart (china wind, burma fires, thai farmers, etc)

3. Put a plan into place to improve air quality that most effectively addresses the above areas and enforce it

4. repeat from step 1

 

 

Well we are stuck at #1 and it's difficult to progress past it because Thailand is resisting revealing the scope of the problem by refusing to disclose PM2.5 pollution and meanwhile made up their own "thai scale" for air quality that classifies air that is not good by international standards as good here. It's plain as day to the most casual observer how bad the problem is out there, yet baffling as it may be Thailand mostly has trouble admitting a problem even exists.

 

[XGM]

44 minutes ago, wolfmuc said:

Sorry, I didn't read this before:

' Fire-fighters and volunteers in Mae Hong Son are battling brush fires along highways and on mountains day and night despite woodlands being officially sealed off.

The fires have for almost five consecutive days smothered the northern province in a haze of small-particle dust that is hazardous to human health... '

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30341929

"most forest fires are appearing on steep mountainsides, inaccessible to fire-fighters, he said, and are left to burn themselves out"
 

The problem will be solved by itself!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And this today:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1031308-pm10-pollution-still-rising-despite-woodland-fire-ban/

 

Quote

 

A governor’s directive to bar entry to reserve forest lands and parks to reduce hazardous pollution in the North has so far failed to reverse the amount of PM10 particulates in Mae Hong Song.
 

Thursday morning saw a climb to 172 micrograms per cubic metre in the quantity of inhalable particulates with a diameter of around 10 micrometres (PM10) – resulting in a delayed flight into May Hong Song airport.

 

The jump, the highest reading in the region for the day, has been largely attributed to forest fires deliberately set by locals following traditional harvesting practices.

 

Chiang Mai’s Muang district had the second-highest reading of the day at 123 micrograms, according to the Pollution Control Department.

 

 

And they're not even counting/reporting the PM2.5 numbers/AQI scale, which invariably would be worse.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Someone was claiming in one of these threads, the other day, and the government has banned local fire setting and thus the local burning wasn't a problem anymore, or the cause of the current smog epidemic.

 

And to that I would say, as the above news report clearly shows, HOGWASH!!!

[heybruce]

26 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Someone was claiming in one of these threads, the other day, and the government has banned local fire setting and thus the local burning wasn't a problem anymore, or the cause of the current smog epidemic.

 

And to that I would say, as the above news report clearly shows, HOGWASH!!!

There are two kinds of laws in Thailand:

 

1.  Those that aren't enforced because it would be hard.

 

2.  Those that aren't enforced because the right people have been paid.

 

I'm not sure which category these illegal fires fall under.  Maybe both.

[bubba]

I posted this in another thread, but....

 

Chiang Mai presently has the worst air quality of all major cities in the world at 181, even eclipsing Delhi which is presently 169.

 

https://www.airvisual.com/world

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

We're No. 1!  We're No. 1!  Yaaaa!!!!!

 

Right up there with many of the garden spots of the world....

 

 

I believe the app indicates, they only do readings for cities over 250,000 population or so.