U.S. gun lobby slams anti-gun 'elites' after Florida school massacre

[wabothai]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:01 PM, riclag said:

Actually the NRA is a organization that promotes gun safety for millions of law abiding  gun owners.If anyone should be held liable it should be the law makers who don't enforce the gun laws.

The NRA is a criminal organization that promotes gun ownership.

[wabothai]

On 2/25/2018 at 10:35 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Last time I looked the NRA don't pass laws. Your boycott would achieve nothing.

 

BTW, what would you be boycotting and how would you do so? They don't sell anything and are a membership organisation. People that want to join will do so regardless of any jumping up and down about the NRA.

No, they won't. Eventually everybody will be scared to join that criminal organization. Give it some time.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, PhonThong said:

My claim was, I can do the same with a 10-22 rifle that anyone can do with an AR-15 as far as modifying it.  It won't look as scary so the hype from the media just won't be there.  My claim was and still is, both rounds fire a .22 caliber bullet.  

Actually, your claim was " AR-15's are no different than any other semi-automatic rifle."  When I contested this, you replied by comparing it to a .22 rifle, while ignoring my observation that the AR-15 is useless for hunting and too dangerous for home security. 

 

An AR-15 has one key difference from larger caliber hunting rifles; it is close to useless for hunting.  It also has a key difference from a .22 semi-automatic rifle; it is far more lethal.  Other than being good for combat or mass murder, due to its cartridge designed for military use, the AR-15 is a useless gun.

3 hours ago, PhonThong said:

.223 muzzle velocity 3250

.22  muzzle velocity 1750,  not even 2X's

But I do understand where you are coming from.  I have reloaded I don't know how many thousands of  .223 or .556 rounds. 

But the fact remains.  The .223 round was designed from a necked down Remington. .222 Varmint Round.  So it is equivalent to many small game hunting rounds. Which also makes the AR-15 one of the most popular hunting rifles in the U.S.  The Liberal media is just lying through their teeth on this one.

 

You can load cartridges to get a wide variety of muzzle velocities.  A .223 loaded with a .22 mass bullet will achieve a muzzle velocity of about 3600 feet per second unless you want to make it go slower.   The .22 muzzle velocity of 1200 feet per second was the first one I came across while checking specs, I'm sure there are ways to achieve higher velocities.  However unless you really want to load a wimpy .223 cartridge, it will always have a much higher muzzle velocity than a .22, and do much more damage to its target.

Edited March 15, 2018 by heybruce

[riclag]

1 hour ago, wabothai said:

The NRA is a criminal organization that promotes gun ownership.

 Since you have accused the NRA as a criminal organization!Can you show facts ,reliable sources  that have  indited and convicted the organization of crimes,   in a court  of law ?

[wabothai]

4 hours ago, PhonThong said:

My claim was, I can do the same with a 10-22 rifle that anyone can do with an AR-15 as far as modifying it.  It won't look as scary so the hype from the media just won't be there.  My claim was and still is, both rounds fire a .22 caliber bullet.  

Seems like you are addicted to guns.

[wabothai]

2 hours ago, riclag said:

 Since you have accused the NRA as a criminal organization!Can you show facts ,reliable sources  that have  indited and convicted the organization of crimes,   in a court  of law ?

Coming up soon in this theatre.

[riclag]

50 minutes ago, wabothai said:

Coming up soon in this theatre.

oh ok! This isn't theater!!!!    This is a forum that expresses opinions .You have already accused  the the NRA as a criminal organization.I asked you to substantiate  your opinion by showing sources with indictments and convictions of crimes in a court of law ,you can't.

Edited March 15, 2018 by riclag

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

oh ok! This isn't theater!!!!    This is a forum that expresses opinions .You have already accused  the the NRA as a criminal organization.I asked you to substantiate  your opinion by showing sources with indictments and convictions of crimes in a court of law ,you can't.

Of course he can't, but the intention of his post is clear: by pushing guns, objecting to any laws to regulate their use and clearly influencing the law makers on this topic the NRA is responsible for many deaths in the US.

[PhonThong]

12 hours ago, wabothai said:

No, they won't. Eventually everybody will be scared to join that criminal organization. Give it some time.

Actually history shows that everytime the NRA is attacked membership goes up. Possibly from past members that rejoin.

Edited March 16, 2018 by PhonThong
spelling error

[PhonThong]

11 hours ago, heybruce said:

Actually, your claim was " AR-15's are no different than any other semi-automatic rifle."  When I contested this, you replied by comparing it to a .22 rifle, while ignoring my observation that the AR-15 is useless for hunting and too dangerous for home security. 

 

An AR-15 has one key difference from larger caliber hunting rifles; it is close to useless for hunting.  It also has a key difference from a .22 semi-automatic rifle; it is far more lethal.  Other than being good for combat or mass murder, due to its cartridge designed for military use, the AR-15 is a useless gun.

You can load cartridges to get a wide variety of muzzle velocities.  A .223 loaded with a .22 mass bullet will achieve a muzzle velocity of about 3600 feet per second unless you want to make it go slower.   The .22 muzzle velocity of 1200 feet per second was the first one I came across while checking specs, I'm sure there are ways to achieve higher velocities.  However unless you really want to load a wimpy .223 cartridge, it will always have a much higher muzzle velocity than a .22, and do much more damage to its target.

Don't confuse a bullet .40-55gr with a whole round. Of course, let's say a .22 LR round is much smaller than a .223 fmjbt round. But the bullet, the lead part is still only a .22. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by PhonThong

[PhonThong]

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

Of course he can't, but the intention of his post is clear: by pushing guns, objecting to any laws to regulate their use and clearly influencing the law makers on this topic the NRA is responsible for many deaths in the US.

The only agenda the NRA uses is the  2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  Politicians that promote the abolishment of the 2nd Amendment without the vote of at least 38 states or promote the confiscation of firearms from the public are in violation of their oath of office " To uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America"  is grounds for impeachment.

 They can't just pick and choose which amendments they would like to support.

Edited March 16, 2018 by PhonThong

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, PhonThong said:

Don't confuse a bullet .40-55gr with a whole round. Of course, let's say a .22 LR round is much smaller than a .223 fmjbt round. But the bullet, the lead part is still only a .22. 

Total mass and velocity of the bullet is much more important than the diameter. 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, PhonThong said:

Actually history shows that everytime the NRA is attacked membership goes up. Possibly from past members that rejoin.

History also shows that after every mass shooting, NRA membership and gun sales go up. 

 

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists:  If one assumes that the parties that benefit from mass shootings are the ones responsible for arranging them, and the NRA and gun manufacturers clearly benefit from these tragedies....

[PhonThong]

Just now, heybruce said:

History also shows that after every mass shooting, NRA membership and gun sales go up. 

 

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists:  If one assumes that the parties that benefit from mass shootings are the ones responsible for arranging them, and the NRA and gun manufacturers clearly benefit from these tragedies....

 I highly doubt that is the case. While it may be true that membership goes up and that sales go up. I think that is more of a fear factor. Which tells me that the U.S. needs to enforce the laws that are already on the books. It also, tells me that the American public feels that they need to provide for their own protection. The truth is. Police only investigate the crime. They have no way of preventing it.

[heybruce]

18 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

The only agenda the NRA uses is the  2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  Politicians that promote the abolishment of the 2nd Amendment without the vote of at least 38 states or promote the confiscation of firearms from the public are in violation of their oath of office " To uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America"  is grounds for impeachment.

 They can't just pick and choose which amendments they would like to support.

Rights are routinely compromised for public order. 

 

The Forth Amendment states:  "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." .  However if you refuse to take a breath, blood or pee test after being pulled over you go to jail.

 

The Fifth Amendment states:  "

"No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.".  Yet the police can seize cash and property with only the suspicion that it was used for illegal purpose and not return it.  The Trump administration supports this. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-greenlights-police-to-increase-seizures-of-cash-and-property-from-suspected-criminals/2017/07/19/3522a9ba-6c99-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.9dcfeff42115  

 

The Supreme Court, primarily by failure to review and overturn lower court rulings, has allowed certain sane restrictions on the right to bear arms.  That is why fully automatic weapons are illegal (and bump stocks should be illegal), and why the crazy neighbor down the street can not legally put landmines in his front yard (to keep out those pesky kids and dogs) and experiment with chemical weapons in his garage (purely for home defense he insists).

 

Nobody maintains that civilians, or even nations, should have unrestricted rights to any kind of arms.  The issue is agreeing on what are reasonable, constitution limits on civilian arms.  Ideally the debate would be simplified by a constitutional amendment addressing the vague, outdated Second Amendment, but single issue gun-nuts, combined with NRA lobbying (possibly funded by Russia http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html ) make a constitutional amendment unlikely.

 

 

[stevenl]

39 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

The only agenda the NRA uses is the  2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  Politicians that promote the abolishment of the 2nd Amendment without the vote of at least 38 states or promote the confiscation of firearms from the public are in violation of their oath of office " To uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America"  is grounds for impeachment.

 They can't just pick and choose which amendments they would like to support.

Nice deflection, but nothing to do with the post you're responding to.

[riclag]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

Of course he can't, but the intention of his post is clear: by pushing guns, objecting to any laws to regulate their use and clearly influencing the law makers on this topic the NRA is responsible for many deaths in the US.

  The NRA represents freedoms and promotes safety and protection  for law abiding citizens.  Saying a organization is responsible for deaths is like saying the  National Association of Tobacco Outlets is responsible  for over 6 million deaths .They push tobacco they lobby against more regulations ,they influence law makers..Alcohol is   responsible for close to 100k of deaths in the USA annually, are the Liquor Association retailers  responsible for that!

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs339/en/

Edited March 16, 2018 by riclag

[Opl]

17 hours ago, wabothai said:

The NRA is a criminal organization that promotes gun ownership.

maybe the reason why...   "Congressional investigators have learned that a longtime attorney for the National Rifle Association expressed concerns about the group's ties to Russia and possible involvement in channeling Russian money into the 2016 elections to help Donald Trump; the NRA was the biggest backer of Trump's presidential campaign, spending $30 million to help propel him to his upset Victory on, a strong advocate of gun control laws. "

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/03/longtime-nra-lawyer-said-concerns-groups-ties-russia-possible-involvement-channeling-money/

[Opl]

"The sister of Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof was arrested Wednesday on charges of bringing weapons and drugs to her South Carolina high school, authorities said. Roof had also made an alarming Snapchat post expressing anger about the National School Walkout, "

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/15/us/dylann-roof-sister-arrested/index.html

https://www.salon.com/2018/03/15/charleston-shooters-sister-arrested-carrying-weapons-at-school/

Edited March 16, 2018 by Opl

[riclag]

3 hours ago, Opl said:

maybe the reason why...   "Congressional investigators have learned that a longtime attorney for the National Rifle Association expressed concerns about the group's ties to Russia and possible involvement in channeling Russian money into the 2016 elections to help Donald Trump; the NRA was the biggest backer of Trump's presidential campaign, spending $30 million to help propel him to his upset Victory on, a strong advocate of gun control laws. "

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/03/longtime-nra-lawyer-said-concerns-groups-ties-russia-possible-involvement-channeling-money/

 In a previous comment I posted ,Since you have accused the NRA as a criminal organization!Can you show facts ,reliable sources  that have  indited and convicted the organization of crimes,   in a court  of law ?

 

Like I said reliable sources ,again the Raw Story is a  left wing media source. I'm not to keen on Mcclatchy but The McClatchyDC news story titled "NRA lawyer said to have had concerns about group’s ties to Russia" ran a similar story. The lawyer named Mitchell "told McClatchy in an email that any suggestion she has concerns about the NRA's Russia connections is a "complete fabrication."

It goes on to say in the article that, "neither the FBI, which is working with Special Counsel Robert Mueller to investigate Russian meddling in the election, nor the congressional committees have provided details of potentially improper Russian involvement with the NRA".

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article205412394.html

Edited March 16, 2018 by riclag

[metisdead]

A post in which the quoted content was miss quoted has been removed as well as the reply. 

 

An off topic bickering session has been removed.