Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why was it wrong, because you say so. Most people are still in favour of the death penalty for murder.

I don't think that is correct but even if it was then public opinion is being ignored, why not ignore Brexit ? all its done so far is cause problems

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

but if parliament, as they did, voted for art. 50, 4 to 1, why is there a problem now, even the cabinet is divided, 2nd thoughts perhaps? Admit it, the whole poorly thought out process is a mess, the EU is preparing to extend the Brexit negotiations, this is going a treat isn't it.

Why is there a problem now.

 

House of Lords, mostly remainers.

 

The invented term '' Soft Brexit ''

 

The EU, trying to keep the UK under the thumb of Brussels and the ECJ and to keep the UK's money flowing to Brussels.

 

The process is a mess because the EU should have been told right from the start, '' The UK leaves the EU on the 29 March 2019 and WTO rules apply immediately ''

 

( You cannot have half a divorce )

 

Now we can start negotiating.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Great example, even though it is clutching straws and off topic.

 

But Capital punishment was used in the UK for over 700 years before it was abolished in the mid 60's.

 

So come back around the year 2700 and start a rejoin the EU campaign.

No it was exactly relevant to your previous point  " ....trying to overturn a Democratic decision that has been voted into Law."

 

Just because something is currently the law does not mean one is not able to oppose it - for instance I think current copyright terms are too long - I will support anyone who says we should shorten them. If we could not oppose existing laws how could we ever change any law? 

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

for instance I think current copyright terms are too long - I will support anyone who says we should shorten them.

I do not recall ever having a vote on copyright terms ??

 

Come back when you have a valid comparison.

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I do not recall ever having a vote on copyright terms ??

 

Come back when you have a valid comparison.

Poll tax?

 

Copyright terms are voted on at EU level - why we  did not have had a vote here.

 

But generally - opposition to the current laws is part of democracy. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by tebee

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Why is there a problem now.

 

House of Lords, mostly remainers.

 

The invented term '' Soft Brexit ''

 

The EU, trying to keep the UK under the thumb of Brussels and the ECJ and to keep the UK's money flowing to Brussels.

 

The process is a mess because the EU should have been told right from the start, '' The UK leaves the EU on the 29 March 2019 and WTO rules apply immediately ''

 

( You cannot have half a divorce )

 

Now we can start negotiating.

 

 

but we come back to reality, they weren't told that were they. They weren't told that because the intricacies of governing a country include not only parliament but capital, industry, the civil service and the establishment, not to mention almost half the electorate who were against it, there is no overwhelming support for Brexit although I have no doubt May will do her best to achieve it if only because her political future depends on it, there is no ideology or logic at play here, May has always been a remainer, now it's all about me as far as she is concerned. 

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

Poll tax?

tebee

 

There was no Referendum on the Poll Tax either. Another stupid comparison.

 

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

Copyright terms are voted on at EU level - why we have had a vote here.

So YOU had a vote at EU level. So you are actually a Eurocrat, is that what you are saying ?

 

Have you now been outed as a EUROtroll ?

 

 

[tebee]

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

......

 

The process is a mess because the EU should have been told right from the start, '' The UK leaves the EU on the 29 March 2019 and WTO rules apply immediately ''

 

( You cannot have half a divorce )

 

Now we can start negotiating.

 

 

God I hope I never have you negotiating for me - so your negotiating strategy would be to throw all our cards away and start from the worst possible result and try and work up from that with very little to offer.

 

I won't say our contributions don't matter to the EU,  but  they are not a major concern, once we have settled up  for the current spending period, the EU can fairly easily  make it up from other countries contributions, it's a relatively small amount - even the whole EU budget is not that big - roughly equivalent to what the UK alone spends on pensions.

 

The Eu is much more worried about its own rules and coherence. The reason they offer us a deal is not for the monetary gain, but to avoid the shock of a sudden dislocation and the damage that could cause to EU businesses  Once we have had  the crashing out of a hard Brexit the damage is done things are broken, it much easier to replace them than try and repair later.

 

The EU economy will take a big hit, but nothing like as bad as the UK economy will, and medium term there will be gains for Europe as firms move out of the UK and relocate and pay their taxes there.

 

Post hard brexit there will be no reason for the EU to offer us any sort of advantageous deal.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

There was no Referendum on the Poll Tax either. Another stupid comparison.

 

So YOU had a vote at EU level. So you are actually a Eurocrat, is that what you are saying ?

 

Have you now been outed as a EUROtroll ?

 

 

Is that all you've got ?

I'm a troll foll de roll

I'm a troll foll de roll

and I'll eat you for my supper

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

There was no Referendum on the Poll Tax either. Another stupid comparison.

 

So YOU had a vote at EU level. So you are actually a Eurocrat, is that what you are saying ?

 

Have you now been outed as a EUROtroll ?

 

 

The referendum does not matter in law as it was only advisory - it was parliament who enacted the laws which I oppose.   

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

The referendum does not matter in law as it was only advisory - it was parliament who enacted the laws which I oppose.   

Why did you ignore this ?

 

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

There was no Referendum on the Poll Tax either. Another stupid comparison.

 

So YOU had a vote at EU level. So you are actually a Eurocrat, is that what you are saying ?

 

Have you now been outed as a EUROtroll ?

 

 

Explain to the readers how YOU had a vote at the EU level ?

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Poll tax?

 

Copyright terms are voted on at EU level - why we  did not have had a vote here.

 

But generally - opposition to the current laws is part of democracy. 

Edited 27 minutes ago by tebee

tebee

 

Why did you change the wording on this comment a full 30 minutes after I  asked you why you had a vote at the EU level ?

Edited June 16, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Why did you ignore this ?

 

Explain to the readers how YOU had a vote at the EU level ?

I used the term WE meaning the country generally - it's a perfectly normal English expression - at least to native English speakers.

 

Note I've corrected the original to "did not" now, which is what I meant to say in the first place.

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

Note I've corrected the original to "did not" now, which is what I meant to say in the first place.

Oh yes, I know, especially after I posted this

 

10 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

Why did you change the wording on this comment a full 30 minutes after I  asked you why you had a vote at the EU level ?

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

The death sentence was also once law.

Was there a referendum on the issue of capital punishment?

 

IIRC there was not, and there wasn't a concerted campaign to bring it back.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

after which they will castigate the government for the poor state of the country and the high unemployment and/or the low paying poor quality jobs. The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Wrong. This group will not damn the government if it carries Brexit through. The difficulty of leaving highlights the designs of the unnecessarily complex monster that the EU has become and the typical bullying tactics of EU chiefs, supported by big business and banks, who will do anything to stop the UK leaving. An orderly Brexit has been denied and hampered by the constant meddling of various self-interested parties, who continue to try to block the exit, which was approved by the country when Article 50 passed through with a huge majority in the UK Parliament. 

 

If a meaningful Brexit is not delivered, then that will be the death knell for UK democracy and that is when you will see the real castigation of governement and others.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

but if parliament, as they did, voted for art. 50, 4 to 1, why is there a problem now, even the cabinet is divided, 2nd thoughts perhaps? Admit it, the whole poorly thought out process is a mess, the EU is preparing to extend the Brexit negotiations, this is going a treat isn't it.

"but if parliament, as they did, voted for art. 50, 4 to 1, why is there a problem now,"

 

Because those MPs in 'leave' areas realised it would be political suicide to vote against activating Art. 50.  But they're still hoping that brexit can be watered down to 'leave in name only', without being voted out by their constituents at the next election.

 

IMO.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I don't think that is correct but even if it was then public opinion is being ignored, why not ignore Brexit ? all its done so far is cause problems

Because there was a referendum on the issue - and the govt. assured the electorate that they would act according to the referendum result.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

The referendum may have been a democratic process, but democracy did not finish on that day ! 

True. The decision of our democratic EU referendum still needs to be converted into Brexit! ?

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Oh yes, I know, especially after I posted this

 

 

I read what you had posted(first time) , then read what I had posted as I couldn't understand where you had got the inference that I personally had voted on something when I has said we(as in the country) didn't vote on it,  realized I'd changed the way is was trying to say this when I was typing it and in the process missed out a didn't. 

 

Fixed it, then started typing a reply to you, got called away by my son who wanted an early lunch as we are traveling again tonight, cooked him something, came back and finished typing my response without looking to see if there were further responses - happy now?

 

I still don't understand why you read my We as referring to me personally, If I had wanted to say I had voted I would have used   the personal pronoun "I" . Using we to refer to a wider group of people, in this case the country, is perfectly normal English. Either you are not a native speaker or you are trying deliberately to misread my words to make trouble. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Great minds think alike ! ?

I think that comment could be up for a seperate debate!

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

There are some opinions in Bloomberg and the Telegraph who would agree with me, one thing now that all the press agrees on, even the American Huffington Post, Brexit has become a mess, it's a mess because there isn't a sufficient majority to carry it through, if there was it would be done and clear by now, Industry and the world of finance would have certainty but they don't.

What are the names of these opinions?

[tebee]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Wrong. This group will not damn the government if it carries Brexit through. The difficulty of leaving highlights the designs of the unnecessarily complex monster that the EU has become and the typical bullying tactics of EU chiefs, supported by big business and banks, who will do anything to stop the UK leaving. An orderly Brexit has been denied and hampered by the constant meddling of various self-interested parties, who continue to try to block the exit, which was approved by the country when Article 50 passed through with a huge majority in the UK Parliament. 

 

If a meaningful Brexit is not delivered, then that will be the death knell for UK democracy and that is when you will see the real castigation of governement and others.

 

If a meaningful Brexit is delivered in the current timescales it will do so much  damage to the economy there will be worse castigation of government - they are damned if they do and damned if they don't  - this is why they are procrastinating, wishing the whole thing would just go away. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by tebee

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Either you are not a native speaker or you are trying deliberately to misread my words to make trouble. 

My passport, bit of a sorry state, I travel a lot.

 

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

you are trying deliberately to misread my words to make trouble. 

No, your words were crystal clear, right up until I pointed them out and you then changed them.

 

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

this is why they are procrastinating,

The only people who are procrastinating are remainers.

 

So frightened are they to leave the EU it is amazing that some of them claim to be in Thailand.

 

Thailand is much too scary for you, you better head back to the EU.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

The referendum does not matter in law as it was only advisory - it was parliament who enacted the laws which I oppose.   

After 2 years we still have this old advisory yarn coming out? Amazing!

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

If a meaningful Brexit is delivered in the current timescales it will do so much  damage to the economy there will be worse castigation of government - they are damned if they do and damned if they don't  - this is why they are procrastinating, wishing the whole thing would just go away. 

No. The reasons for "procrastination" are as I already explained, except I use the words: bullying, hampered, meddling, and block in place of procrastination.

 

You sound like Project Fear, Junior Edition.

[dick dasterdly]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

If a meaningful Brexit is delivered in the current timescales it will do so much  damage to the economy there will be worse castigation of government - they are damned if they do and damned if they don't  - this is why they are procrastinating, wishing the whole thing would just go away. 

"they are procrastinating, wishing the whole thing would just go away."

 

I agree with this part....

 

UK politicians made a bad mistake (from their POV) in allowing a referendum on the subject - as they fought to pretend to the electorate that they cared about their opinion ?!

 

But they did, as they were stupid enough to think fear tactics would ensure a remain vote.   We now have to deal with the fallout as they desperately try to turn it into 'leave in name only'....

Edited June 16, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

After 2 years we still have this old advisory yarn coming out? Amazing!

it was - no matter how you wish otherwise, you can't change that.

[tebee]

21 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The only people who are procrastinating are remainers.

 

So frightened are they to leave the EU it is amazing that some of them claim to be in Thailand.

 

Thailand is much too scary for you, you better head back to the EU.

Oh I'm quite happy anywhere in the world, Many Brexiters want to make the UK much more like Thailand anyway.