Girlfriend refused tourist visa to UK twice - unsure what route to take next.

[SBK2494]

Hi guys just seeking some advice to help my girlfriend and I.

 

The basics: I am a male who works full times a electronics engineer but also have a seasonal business and rental property. My girlfriend is a manager at a hostel and gets a good salary for Thailand (she has been there over a year now).  We met in June last year whilst i was on my travels with a friend. Since June I have been to see in October and December. Our relationship is genuine and I wanted her to visit the UK for a holiday as she has never visited a western country before only around south east Asia.  Furthermore, by visiting she can see whether she would ever consider living here.

 

We applied for a tourist visa in December. This was rushed and not done very well. Her rich friend deposited a large amount in her bank account and also paid an agent to act on her behalf (he was useless). They wanted my details, which I provided but then the agent decided to take them out as he felt it would affect the visa in a negative way. However, being useless he removed the evidence but kept my name. As a result (as I expected) it failed due to the deposit of a large amount of money and that there was no evidence of us being a relationship.

 

So we applied again in February.  This time we did the application ourselves. This time around we put all my evidence of me being a sponsor in.  We also provided her bank statements in for the last few months showing she was able to show that she has been able to save from salary.  We included itinerary etc of our plans for the proposed visit. We included the reasons for the large sum deposited (Stated it was birthday gift as he does not want the money back and it does fall on her birthday).  We explained that it was only a 10 day visit and that this was the only amount of time she could have off work due to being manager and having to MANAGE the hostel.

 

Anyhow they refused (I was quite surprised, please see attached pictures below).  I thought they were meant to base it upon applications at each time and not base it upon previous ones? We have been honest as much as we can but I just don't understand how we can prove that she will return back to Thailand as she does not own any assets. We explained the importance of her job and that we didn't want to jeopardize and future applications. My girlfriend does have family in Thailand.  They were happy with sponsor side of things in that I can support her visit. Really i feel the first application screwed us over.

 

So my questions are:

- How long should we wait until we apply again (some say 6 months)

- I can get a letter from her rich friend to state it was a birthday gift and get bank statements for that account but would this be enough?

- How can I prove that she is a genuine visitor (which she is) and that she will return back after 10 days? As we have stated job and family etc but can't really think of anymore that we haven't stated.

 

Any help of advice would be truly grateful

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[NanLaew]

Do you have a copy of the first refusal letter from the previous application? Make sure you have ALL the reasons for that initial refusal addressed. There's a suggestion that it possibly failed due to bad service and advice from the agent. However, if there's no mention of this in that first application refusal letter, then it remains only your opinion and not relevant to any subsequent application.

 

It would appear that explaining the large 'gift' bank deposit was something that was flagged on that first application but NOT fully addressed in this recent application?

 

If the 'rich friend' is prepared to provide written testament to this gift, the 'rich friend' will also need to agree to providing full name and contact details and agree to being contacted to verify their bona fides for this third visa application. They should be prepared to honestly say that this money was a birthday present and avoid saying she needed it for travel to the UK with her new boyfriend. They should also be aware of the intended travel dates of the applicant in case they are asked.

 

With regard to this gift, here's a specific reference in this second refusal letter that the applicant has "not provided the documents related to that account." Does this mean that the applicants bank book/statements provided for the second application did not cover the time of the birthday gift? Or did the applicant provide different bank account information from the information used for the first application? Inconsistency here? Either way, I would read that as possibly wanting confirmation that the funds did come from the 'rich friend' account. I hope the 'rich friend' is agreeable to providing a bank statement that confirms the time/date and more importantly, the origin of this gift. Anyone can write a letter saying they did it as easily as anyone can tell someone on the phone that they did it. Where's the evidence?

 

Since the visa agent virtually erased your existence on the first application, then you become much more significant on the subsequent application so could be seen as an inconsistency. You need to ensure that your girlfriend maintains exactly the same information she provided about you on the failed, second application on this third application. This does not mean copy/paste the previous information but make sure there are no embellishments and/or omissions that will raise flags due to being inconsistent.

 

I don't see any reference to her current employer providing any written guarantees that she can take a short, overseas vacation and return to her current job. I would consider that adds significant weight to the applicants stated intention to return to Thailand. If this has been overlooked, then once again, the employer contact information is also required and they must also agree to being contacted for verification. Make sure the employer is aware of the planned dates of travel in case they are contacted and asked.

 

Since this will be the third visit visa application in maybe 3 months, I would assume that the dates provided for each leave of absence from work has also changed. This could be seen as being inconsistent with regular paid employment where changing ones vacation dates regularly isn't easily accommodated. There may be a certain benefit of 'cooling the jets' on this rapid-fire re-application procedure, especially since the weather in the UK is really rubbish until maybe August?

 

Honesty works but deceit, obfuscation, lying by omission and second-guessing will fail.

 

Good luck!

[Timbob]

 

I'm sorry for your predicament, but there seems to be an inconsistency. You state that her friend deposited a large amount into her account, but on their refusal it says "a monetary gift(s) from friends and family" and you did not address this. Surely if it was from multiple people there would be more than one deposit so they probably thought this was a lie, which (correct me if I'm wrong) it may have been. You really need to address this issue and it's tricky now if you said it was from friends and family, rather than one individual.

 

Good luck!

[BobbyL]

Worrying I think that first application has b uggered you for a while. They are definitely getting stricter. 

 

If there is any advice to give when applying, it is NEVER use an agent and definitely do not show large sums of money being transferred into her account prior to applying. A lot of these things are said online about the process and always cause red flags to the people at VFS. 

 

The best way is to be honest and show the necessary things (her bank statements even with small amounts in, a letter from her employer stating her employment and holiday leave, any house or car purchases she has in Thailand as all these things show a likelihood of return, plus a travel itinerary and your sponsor info). 

 

I don't know what else to say other than maybe leave it for a year or so and try again. Maybe apply for a Schengen and take her to Europe. 

[moe666]

Wait a bit they would probably like to see you together for a couple of years. 

[bobrussell]

There is no need to wait if you can cover the points raised by the ECO. If the first attempt was considered fraudulent or likely to be then waiting will not reverse this.

As stated above you must provide evidence that the money was a gift. The donor needs to write stating that it was a gift. Not sure he/she has to state it was a birthday present as it would appear it was not. He/she can be non-committal and could state it was timed to arrive on her birthday if it was.

Telling lies or more likely half truths is very likely to be found out. ECO's have seen it all before!

It is appropriate to state that the first application was completed using an agent and it is clear that this was not a wise move and has muddied the water unnecessarily.

It seems the first application is the problem therefore (again as stated by a poster above) the provider of the money might need to be contactable by phone and stories must match accordingly.

Make it clear that the intention was not to mislead in any way as the visit is affordable and employment indicates a reason to return. Accept that you assumed the visa agent was the expert and that you have leaned this was not the case.

Waiting might support the strength of your relationship but not much else IMO.

Edited March 2, 2018 by bobrussell

[rasg]

I agree with Bob.

 

If you ever use an agent again make sure you use an OISC accredited visa agent.

 

So many cowboys out there and you can immediately tell that your was because your GF was advised to pad her bank account.

 

You now have a mountain to climb but it's probably doable. 

[virtualm]

Can I add to this,

 

I've just successfully got my thai gf a UK 6 month tourist visa, we did the application ourselves. It just takes time guys (about 10 hours with me in the UK and her in Thailand), why spend 25,000 on something that might not be successful? And do you want to share all your personal private financial documents with a stranger? There's some really confidential documents you have to submit such as bank statements, work contract, title deeds / rental info.....no way was I handing over them to somebody I dont know.

 

Maybe our circumstances were different because I was working in BK for 2 years, then I met her and she was living with me. Me being the main earner and supporting her.

 

From the OP, two things stand out,1) her previously refused visa... which could hit her with a 10 year ban so be very careful (you should have told the truth, or maybe she didnt tell you?, and 2) the lack of bank statements....and then you loaded her account with money. I didnt load my gf's account on purpose.  

 

So do the VFS application yourself, and be 100% transparent, especially about previous visas. A constant history of money in / out in her account helps a lot as well.

[Timbob]

45 minutes ago, virtualm said:

Can I add to this,

 

I've just successfully got my thai gf a UK 6 month tourist visa, we did the application ourselves. It just takes time guys (about 10 hours with me in the UK and her in Thailand), why spend 25,000 on something that might not be successful? And do you want to share all your personal private financial documents with a stranger? There's some really confidential documents you have to submit such as bank statements, work contract, title deeds / rental info.....no way was I handing over them to somebody I dont know.

Even doing it yourself, you still have to hand this information over to a stranger. But I agree about avoiding agents. I don't see the point, as aside from the extra cost, you still have to do much of the donkey work anyway.  

[virtualm]

But at least it's the VFS office, who you would hope have to sign an NDA. I'm less worried about them tbh. But you would think you could just upload the sponsor documents as part of the application.

[rasg]

16 hours ago, virtualm said:

So do the VFS application yourself, and be 100% transparent, especially about previous visas. A constant history of money in / out in her account helps a lot as well.

 

She has to address the problems from the previous refusals but a history of money going in and out of an account doesn’t help much unless it is a salary going in and being spent.

 

I provided no bank statements for either of my, now wife's visit visas which were both successful and we never recovered a single phone call.

 

I just told them how much she earned, how much she sent home, how much rent she paid etc. She was paid in cash each month, paid no tax as she was below the threshold and most of it never touched her bank account.

 

I have seen a lot of refusals in the last couple of years where too much info has been given and spurious payments in or out of a bank account have ended up tying an applicant up in knots when an ECO has called.

[Fish Head Soup]

They clearly suspect that the use of the bank deposit in the bank account on the first application was an attempt to deceive the ECO. Until this issue is cleared up and the flag is removed from the system then any further application will no doubt fail.

[rasg]

Probably the only way the OP will get over padding the account with money is to explain that they had poor advice from the visa company. It is quite true and happens a lot.

 

You don't need to leave to six months. Just to address the problems that meant the visa applications were refused.

 

Talking about birthday gifts from a  rich friend is not true and it's likely to result in refusal number three if you lie.

 

The employer letter is critical and one of the few reasons to return that seems to actually result in a visa.

 

Important too, to explain that the visa company advised you to leave your name from the application. Your sponsor letter is critical too to explain everything.

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by rasg

[NanLaew]

52 minutes ago, rasg said:

Talking about birthday gifts from a  rich friend is not true and it's likely to result in refusal number three if you lie.

The more I think about, this whole "rich friend giving holiday money that suddenly turns into (close to a) birthday present" is simply a lie being justified by yet another lie. Ten year ban on application coming right up!

 

Clear the decks and transfer that 'gift' back to the 'rich friend' where it belongs. That will indicate a whole lot more honesty and earnestness to the ECO than any further, flawed justification for this misbegotten lump-sump suddenly showing up in the applicants bank account.

[bobrussell]

It appears from what you say that the money was a gift. Transferring the money back might support the idea that it was placed there to find favour with the ECO.

If you can get a written explanation from the donor then that would be the most 'honest' thing. Why was it put into the account? Who put it there? Is it a sum to be repaid or a true gift?

None of this is fraudulent as long as you provide accurate answers. There is a risk in stating it was a gift sent to help with the application but the key thing is to get the donor to confirm the exact nature of the gift. Perhaps that is the place to say it was a well meant but rather foolish thing to do! 

Not really ten year ban stuff but clearly enough to place a red flag on the applicants file. 

If you are worried then perhaps contact the forum sponsor for advice. They are regulated in the UK so should give good advice unlike a number of other agents.

I really don't think it is impossible to get approval for a further, more carefully thought out application.

[Get Real]

As a well known rule, it is you as a person inviting your girlfriend to your country that is the one that should put up the guarantee for her. It might be that they look upon the fact that somebody else loaded her account with money. 

I would concentrate on to only focus on you and her and keep it between yourselfs. Information about her, intention with stay. Information about you and means of support coming from you and your financial situation. Information about your relationship, and maybe some written statements from witnesses that can confirm the truth in some of the information. Plus all the required documents of course.

I see no reason to wait with another application, as long as the facts are true and in line with what is required.

[theoldgit]

5 hours ago, Get Real said:

As a well known rule, it is you as a person inviting your girlfriend to your country that is the one that should put up the guarantee for her. It might be that they look upon the fact that somebody else loaded her account with money. 

I'm sorry but I'm not aware of the "well known rule" to which you refer.

Nobody has to put up any sort of guarantee support an applicantion for a General Visit Visa.

In this instance the OP's girlfriend has followed the misleading advice of an "agent" and borrowed money, or accepted a gift from a benefactor to pad her bank account to make her trip look affordable, the ECO has seen through this and refused the application.

There are no procedures for any sort of guarantees when applying for a Visit Visa, if the OP's girlfriend is using her own funds to prove afforadability, then she should show the source of the funds in her account, if the OP is providing sponsorship then it's he who should prove affordability along with the source of the funds, together with the evidence that it's reasonable for him to do so, but that isn't any sort of guarantee.
I think we've established that padding the account was unwise, and something the applicant will need to unravel.

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, theoldgit said:

I'm sorry but I'm not aware of the "well known rule" to which you refer.

Nobody has to put up any sort of guarantee support an applicantion for a General Visit Visa.

In this instance the OP's girlfriend has followed the misleading advice of an "agent" and borrowed money, or accepted a gift from a benefactor to pad her bank account to make her trip look affordable, the ECO has seen through this and refused the application.

There are no procedures for any sort of guarantees when applying for a Visit Visa, if the OP's girlfriend is using her own funds to prove afforadability, then she should show the source of the funds in her account, if the OP is providing sponsorship then it's he who should prove affordability along with the source of the funds, together with the evidence that it's reasonable for him to do so, but that isn't any sort of guarantee.
I think we've established that padding the account was unwise, and something the applicant will need to unravel.

Yeah, "The well known rule" was regarding that it is more common for the foreigner that invite a girl to his home country to show a guarantee and reasonable funds for her to have a return ticket and means for stay.

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, theoldgit said:

Nobody has to put up any sort of guarantee support an applicantion for a General Visit Visa

Wrong! Either the person invite or the invited person has to show means for travel and stay, that is what is referred to as a guarantee.

[bobrussell]

There is no guarantee or guarantor in UK visa regulations. If the funds (affordability) element is to be covered by a sponsor then they have to demonstrate there are sufficient funds to cover the likely visit.

A guarantor would have to be held responsible if an applicant failed to comply with their visa terms.

An effort was made to introduce such a scheme but quickly became apparent it was unworkable.

Theoldgit is completely correct in stating that there is no such thing as a guarantee to support a general visit visa.