Thai Xenophobia

[steveromagnino]

hey steveromagnino ,

i for one value your input here ,

thanxs mate

mid

and every post of your Mid, I get to look at that lovely stern of yours.

The boat, not your actual, er, stern :-)))) Makes my day I love sailing!

[ColPyat]

Using the word "mon" in thailand would be worse than going to harlem in the USA and using the "nigger". It is ok for the blacks to use it on each even if they do not know each other. If a white person went there and use it they would be killed. "Mon" used on another thai that one does not know would be taken very unkindly and is acceptable only for those very close to each other.

what is the exact wording? not 'mun farang' i'd guess since that is a potato. i want to listen out for this.

most of the people who claim to have heard it probably know F&*k all about the language; Neraram being an exception :-)

Mun i used in the place of kao

Such as a tuk tuk driver or songtaew driver might say....

that guy over there, he wants to go to the bus station.

Phoochai kon nun, kao yahk bpai satanee rot tour.

and about a farang, alledgedly he might say

Farang kon nun, mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (mun = like an it wants to go to the bus station)

or

farang dtua nun, mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (I have yet to hear this one, but according to someone in the thread earlier, they apparently heard the classifier for animal, so this must have been what they heard, cannot see anyone ever saying it, but who am I to say, I am not god :-)

or

farang ngoh. Mun ja bpai satanee rot tour (a clear insult)

or

farang look neung. Mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (ok, this one is just for fun, but actually is quite funny, as farang is also a fruit, so it is funny in that farang the fruit wants to go to the bus station, I think maybe you have to be slightly Thai to find this funny)

However....just because you hear mun means little. In Isaan, it is common to use the word mun about men AFAIK, and my own family from there refer to me, my uncle, their sons and other men as mun frequently. And in Central Thailand ai as in ai-sut, ai-kwai etc is an insult, and yet ai in Isaan is not, it can be a term on endearment (and also an insult) as in Ai-Steve :-)

Note. my name is not Steve. Just for example.

My own opinion is the worst thing to do is speak a little Thai, and then you'll start hearing MANY alledged insults. Better to simply not care; I would go mad if I took offense at every insult I got handed, simply I couldn't care less what most people say about me, as their opinion counts for s&*t; they are mostly idiots and morons. Or they really know me, and therefore what they are saying is probably true :_)))

In central Thai though, as spoken in Bangkok, by Bangkogians, "mun" instead of "khao" is a disrespectful adress, especially when spoken while the person so titled is hearing this, such as: "Ai farang nii, mun aow arai wa?".

I don't know much about Isaarn and colloquial Lao spoken there, but in the lower north, "mun" is used very much within families or clans, though definately not with strangers.

Here in Bangkok, when with closed friends, we use the title "mun" constantly (such as in "puac mun"), and also adressing each other with "goo" and "mueng", though rarely does a younger friend adress his older look pii that way while the look pii does adress his look nong that way. Strangers though - not.

"Ai Hia", "Ai Sad", "Ai Yet Mae", and whatever not, i hear used under friends, and use myself with younger friends and relatives, both in the north and in Bangkok, the same way in the west friends adress each other with respective insults in a joking way, though the same way strangers do not insult each other in the west, i have never heard Thais that don't know each other very well adress each other with "Ai Hia" unless they have a serious argument.

I hope you do not advise us to go to Isaarn and start calling complete strangers "Ai Hia"?

Edited January 25, 2007 by ColPyat

[Acquiesce]

yes i think your right there mate as those pommy blighters really give our aboriginals a shocking time.

i just love it when someone throws that up as it was the pommy royalty who sent all the criminals out here and us true blue aussie's are well in the clear on that front.

but we got a few xenophobic auusies as well so fair play i say.

and ill give you the big tip mate,

unless you live full time in aussie you will never know our aboriginals problems so i suggest you just dont go there.

thank you very much and on that note back to the thai thread.

I'm pleased i'm a pommy so i can enjoy the pommy-oz banter, i guess if your from another land it's hard to understand this love hate relationship the people from these two great countries have.

Good on ya Terry keep the English - Oz banter flowing

[papakapbaan]

Why is it ,that those who jump to protect Thailand and Thais, no matter what, are usually:

- Those who only know the nightlife / tourist scene.

- Never lived here on a permanent basis.

- Never had a business in Thailand, or studied the Thai laws.

- Do not regularly read Thai newspapers or listen to the Thai media.

- Do not understand the language or the culture well enough to notice subtleties.

???

The answer is simple - they fill the function Thais want them to fill, and therefore do not encounter much Xenophobia - they are merely PAYERS, uninformed TOURISTS = "Come, Spend, Leave!".

Yes, it is a non-debate.

Some posters sound pretentious here (and I will probably sound pretentious). But do your mind: they are right.

Basically you have:

On one side: those who have been here for some significant amount of time: they know!

On the other side: the other ones (and a few with blinders): they don't know YET.

Thais are an incredibly XENOPHOBIC LOT. They are quite possibly the Champions of Asia (and possibly the Champions of the World).

For a start, as we all know, Thais are EXTREMELY NATIONALIST and thus it's natural for the ruling classes to use xenophobia and the xenophobic discourses.

BTW The Thai dislike/distrust of their immediate neighbours (Burmeses, Laotians) is as bad -if not worst than- as their phobia/dislike of Westerners.

And historically and politically more important.

But if you don't know where to look for contemporary examples of Thai xenophobia, search this forum for:

(just a few example, and only guesses)

-new visa rules

-house ownership

-land ownership

-double pricing

-...

-Latest and not least, the economic xenophobia: protectionism, company ownership, etc.

Xenophobia is everywhere. It's hard to think that some people don't notice it!?

And the more you stay here, the more you realize it. And the more the Thais may dislike you for realizing their xenophobia (and the rest of the darker sides of their culture).

(cf. the expression: "Farang Ruu Maak": A Farang who knows too much)

But on the bright side, as some posters already noted, xenophobia is somewhat counter-balanced by a non confrontational culture.

So it's possible to live here in semi-rejection and... in peace. Not too bad.

I remember that "Thai Xenophobia" was an old subject in pionneering Internet expats forums already 10 years ago. (In the very early days of the Internet)

When asked, many expats concluded that indeed they did not have any close Thai friend!

I have Thai friends, don't worry. But no way they will ever be as close as Farang friends.

For sure it does tell something! Especially when there is no -or little- language barrier, when the Farangs are near fluent in Thai.

(Ok. Maybe the xenophobia is on both sides, granted ;-0)

[maccaroni man]

So it's possible to live here in semi-rejection and... in peace. Not too badi]

That says it all.

[alexth]

So it's possible to live here in semi-rejection and... in peace. Not too badi]

That says it all.

[the swagman]

It distresses me to hear farangs using very colloquial thai when they don't really have the full knowledge of the language nor or the cultural implications and nuances that are in the language.

[kmart]

It distresses me to hear farangs using very colloquial thai when they don't really have the full knowledge of the language nor or the cultural implications and nuances that are in the language.

Me too. Its pretentious, no?

[Jet Gorgon]

People learning new languages do it everywhere. It's a buzz for them and I don't see it as a problem unless they are being offensive. I studied three non-native languages, made gaffs in all three and made my friends laugh when I used a colloquial phrase, especially out of context. Learning curve, I say.

[the swagman]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

[appleman_thai]

Whats with this fancy word "zenophobia"??

Cut to the chase and say it like it is. Thais are racist. (full s-top!)

I am here 5 and a half years and am heading home next month. I never learnt any thai slang cause its too dangerous - its bad enough trying to get the tones right without worrying if you use the wrong expletive with the wrong person.

Thailand was/is a great country with great people but its on a slippery slope and I dont want to be around when it all comes crashing down.

But I will be back when things settled - maybe in 5 or 10 years!

[papakapbaan]

It distresses me to hear farangs using very colloquial thai when they don't really have the full knowledge of the language nor or the cultural implications and nuances that are in the language.

Well. Not sure what you mean exactly - whether it's directed at my "Farang Ruu Maak" remark above?

It's the first time I used this expression (in the post above).

However many Thais used it around me (speaking about me or directly TO me) a few times.

It definitely distresses me, I can say! Even more so because I have a daughter here and it's not easy to do my mind about the fact Farangs will always be distrusted outsiders in this country (for many in this country).

That's all. Is it prententious?

(BTW I'm not interested in colloquial Thai but it's hard to miss some "things" going on around you sometimes.........)

Edited January 27, 2007 by papakapbaan

[Jet Gorgon]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Ah, yes, I agree with you on this point. It is offensive when people spout rude or profance comments in another language, especially if that is all that they know. It is one reason I stay away from the girlie bar sois where the ladies have limited vocab but what they have is more than I would like to hear. Mind you, the English spoken by some of the patrons there is not much better.

[alexth]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Perhaps a thai school prior the immigration officers in the airport would be a good ideea to stop for a few years to learn thai Where I come from, when a foreigner is speaking bad romanian, people usually try to understand him/her, nobody gets nuts over a mistaken word, contrary, we usually correct them and feel good about them trying to learn it. But what do I know?

[OlRedEyes]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Perhaps a thai school prior the immigration officers in the airport would be a good ideea to stop for a few years to learn thai Where I come from, when a foreigner is speaking bad romanian, people usually try to understand him/her, nobody gets nuts over a mistaken word, contrary, we usually correct them and feel good about them trying to learn it. But what do I know?

This is the centre of the universe. Visitors must be perfect.

[alexth]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Perhaps a thai school prior the immigration officers in the airport would be a good ideea to stop for a few years to learn thai Where I come from, when a foreigner is speaking bad romanian, people usually try to understand him/her, nobody gets nuts over a mistaken word, contrary, we usually correct them and feel good about them trying to learn it. But what do I know?

This is the centre of the universe. Visitors must be perfect.

Well, according to the swagman, it seems they should be...

[Jet Gorgon]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Perhaps a thai school prior the immigration officers in the airport would be a good ideea to stop for a few years to learn thai Where I come from, when a foreigner is speaking bad romanian, people usually try to understand him/her, nobody gets nuts over a mistaken word, contrary, we usually correct them and feel good about them trying to learn it. But what do I know?

Alex, the majority of East Europeans (hope that is OK to make a generalisation like that) I ever met are kind and thoughtful and philosophical. Love to learn and also understand the complexities of learning new languages, ideas and concepts and putting them to good use. Based on your comments I have read, I would say you know alot and are an excellent observer. Not many good observers around these days.

[alexth]

Yes, I agree. Its common to make mistakes and this is the way to effectively learn a language.

But what distresses me is to see farangs, who have learnt street thai from a variety of places or people and then use it in all situations.

Without knowing the nuances and proper place for such language it becomes, no it is, offensive and many times rude.

Perhaps a thai school prior the immigration officers in the airport would be a good ideea to stop for a few years to learn thai Where I come from, when a foreigner is speaking bad romanian, people usually try to understand him/her, nobody gets nuts over a mistaken word, contrary, we usually correct them and feel good about them trying to learn it. But what do I know?

Alex, the majority of East Europeans (hope that is OK to make a generalisation like that) I ever met are kind and thoughtful and philosophical. Love to learn and also understand the complexities of learning new languages, ideas and concepts and putting them to good use. Based on your comments I have read, I would say you know alot and are an excellent observer. Not many good observers around these days.

I'm glad you know soooo many things about East Europeans...

[BlackArtemis]

Terry I keep reading "no more than America, Australia and Brit". But you would consider them to be as well. So if the Thais are the same, then they are Xenophobic.

You begin to notice it when you begin to pick out all the insults in the Thai language.

But I don't care because I associate myself with wonderful people here. I wouldn't hang out with xenophobic people back home either.

[the swagman]

Alex, you're obviously an educated man/woman.

'Well, according to the swagman, it seems they should be... '

So you know this is not what I meant.

When learning another langauge, you are always going to make mistakes and usually the people around you will try to understand and correct you.

What I did mean was, it is painful to watch some people use the limited language they have learnt with no concept of the setting they are in.

Obviously a bar and a shopping centre and a education centre are different

places. It goes that the langauge will be different in each setting.

People with a little nouce will be able to understand this and if they don't know the correct level, tone or word for what they want to say will not use 'gutter' language to say it. They will find another way to say it that will not give offence.

I have seen people in situations where the listener is cringing in embarrassment when listening to a foreigner try to conduct some business, the cringing was not because of the inability to use the language but the level of language for that situation. The speaker was not embarrassed because he/she didn't realise. He was taught some words or phrases unknowing that they were used only by a certain group in society.

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm glad you know soooo many things about East Europeans...

Nope, never professed that and regret if my thoughts came across as such.

[qualtrough]

My own opinion is the worst thing to do is speak a little Thai, and then you'll start hearing MANY alledged insults. Better to simply not care; I would go mad if I took offense at every insult I got handed, simply I couldn't care less what most people say about me, as their opinion counts for s&*t; they are mostly idiots and morons. Or they really know me, and therefore what they are saying is probably true :_)))

Right on the money! A lot of real ignorance about Thai appearing here. I haven't read through all the many pages of this topic so I might be repeating what others have said, but Thai parents, including my wife, often refer to their children as 'mun.' Mun Farang is the word for potato, and sometimes Thais like to play off that term for their own or others amusement. If you don't know much Thai and you are listening for insults you will hear them even when they are not there.

Steve also raises another important point. Why even care what they say? The few times I have experienced poor treatment, and they have been very few indeed, has been from people whose own lives and station in life were pretty miserable. Pity is a more appropriate feeling, not anger.

[ColPyat]

Right on the money! A lot of real ignorance about Thai appearing here. I haven't read through all the many pages of this topic so I might be repeating what others have said, but Thai parents, including my wife, often refer to their children as 'mun.' Mun Farang is the word for potato, and sometimes Thais like to play off that term for their own or others amusement. If you don't know much Thai and you are listening for insults you will hear them even when they are not there.

I think you don't really get it.

Most use "mun", when talking about friends and relatives. But "mun", when applied to strangers in their presence, or when describing highly respected people, is extremely impolite.

If you use "mun" in situation with strangers, in formal settings, or when describing highly respected people, you will show your own ignorance of which forms of Thai is used for which occasion.

And when a complete stranger uses "mun" to describe me, instead of "khao", than this is highly impolite and offensive.

Maybe it is advisable for some here to use Thai outside their own family setting, and interact with Thais of many different social spheres to learn what language is to be used where, and what not.

[davidjtayler]

Right on the money! A lot of real ignorance about Thai appearing here. I haven't read through all the many pages of this topic so I might be repeating what others have said, but Thai parents, including my wife, often refer to their children as 'mun.' Mun Farang is the word for potato, and sometimes Thais like to play off that term for their own or others amusement. If you don't know much Thai and you are listening for insults you will hear them even when they are not there.

I think you don't really get it.

Most use "mun", when talking about friends and relatives. But "mun", when applied to strangers in their presence, or when describing highly respected people, is extremely impolite.

If you use "mun" in situation with strangers, in formal settings, or when describing highly respected people, you will show your own ignorance of which forms of Thai is used for which occasion.

And when a complete stranger uses "mun" to describe me, instead of "khao", than this is highly impolite and offensive.

Maybe it is advisable for some here to use Thai outside their own family setting, and interact with Thais of many different social spheres to learn what language is to be used where, and what not.

The colonel is correct here ... therefore I concur.

Best to make sure where, when and with who you should use certain words before actually using them.

[ColPyat]

The colonel is correct here ... therefore I concur.

Jeezas, it's like christmas!

Problem with Thai language is less the language, than that the to be applied language is very much depending on stiff social hirarchies that our cultures don't have anymore, and partly never had. That does lead to subtleties that are very difficult to get used to, and almost impossible to internalise the way Thais who grew up in Thailand have internalised from birth.

And many of those hirarchies i personally simply reject. And if that makes me the eternal outsider, i don't care. I do treat people with respect, and that is all i expect in return. I have no aspirations to become Thai. Many things here i adopt because they make sense, and add to my life, and i do believe that i have to adapt to certain degrees when living here. And i feel that i have adapted enough to have a wide circle of Thai friends, and be treated by my family as an integral part.

I know many Thais that grew up in the west, do speak Thai fluently, but still make many mistakes regarding the language vs. social setting/hirarchy.

Insults can be conveyed here in very subtle ways, which are very difficult to decode even if you speak Thai very well.

[dgoz]

Alex, the majority of East Europeans (hope that is OK to make a generalisation like that) I ever met are kind and thoughtful and philosophical.

Be honest. How long have you actually spent in EE?

That sort of narrow minded opinion is similar to people joining in this discussion about Thai xenophobia who've never lived in Thailand.

Actually, it's worse because most of the people talking about Thais have at least been to Thailand.

[meadish_sweetball]

Welcome to participate in the Thai language forum, Colonel. We could use more input from farang Thai speakers.

[meadish_sweetball]

Alex, the majority of East Europeans (hope that is OK to make a generalisation like that) I ever met are kind and thoughtful and philosophical.

Be honest. How long have you actually spent in EE?

That sort of narrow minded opinion is similar to people joining in this discussion about Thai xenophobia who've never lived in Thailand.

Actually, it's worse because most of the people talking about Thais have at least been to Thailand.

"The majority of East Europeans I have met" is what she wrote... How long do you have to spend somewhere in order to be allowed to state your experiences?

[Jet Gorgon]

Thank you, MS. I had just noted that here, but superfluous after your post; hence the edit. Perhaps Alex did not see that modifier either.

Edited January 27, 2007 by Jet Gorgon

[alexth]

Thank you, MS. I had just noted that here, but superfluous after your post; hence the edit. Perhaps Alex did not see that modifier either.

My appologies to you Jet, I was living under the impression that you weren't for real with those words and no, I haven't seen the modified post. Sorry for that