Corruption Probes: Ministers Won't Point The Finger

[sriracha john]

Problems have Solutions ........................

in this case , it's

Education

I don't think education will do anything towards making a person less corrupt. It just raises the stakes. And the method. An educated person will earn more, so the threshold or starting price is only increased.

The only difference I can find is in how far a person is prepared to take it. That is a limit set by his/her basic values and need. Unfortunately the power-hungry are normally those that need the power to fill a void in the ego. By definition these will not be the strongest members of a society. Thus the absolute need for strong checks and balances in a democracy, which usually serve to restrain the corruption a little, maybe.

Wong side of the coin red, educate the voters and it becomes more difficult for corrupt politicians to get in office. Look at who supports Thaksin and who does not based only on education to see what Mid means.

I guess one could say, look who supports a miltiary dictatorship and who doesn't. Education must be for more than just preventing Taksin from taking power. It must teach the nature and principles underlying the democratic process. It must teach the sanctity of the constitution. It must above all else value the rights of others to disagree. Without calling for a military intervention when the vote doesn't go your way.

or without dissolving Parliament... which started all this mess.

[Mid]

More than 72 per cent of the business operators surveyed said they found corruption by authorities a "usual occurrence" and a part of life in running their businesses.

this IS the highway to hel_l

[Plus]

Sanan running Political Science course at Ramkamhaeng university is also education, education in corruption.

Thais should try and set CLEAR rules of what level of corruption is acceptable and what is not. Thaksin's was unacceptable to a few people at first, to some later, and to many in the end, yet still not to everyone. When he became unacceptable to people with real power, he was removed. No one ever expected the justice system to settle the issue.

From the very beginning introduction of a justice system to Thailand was doomed, it's an alien concept to Thai society. Justice always belongs to winners and no judge can interfere with powers of the moment. Current rulers always decide what is right and what is wrong. Ultimately only the King is accepted as the supreme judge. Until then everyone can write his own laws and enforce them at his will.

[Tony Clifton]

Another meaningless and inaccurate Assumption poll...

[PhilHarries]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

There's too much corruption in the world today, and some b@st@rd is getting my share.

[Plus]

The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them.

Control or no control, farmers would never worry about government agencies. They are farmers, they farm land. At most they can lobby the government for a price intervention. And I'm talking about the US and European farmers. Thais are even less interested in politics.

What they MIGHT be interested in is their communities, having some control over their own lives. Evidence suggests otherwise, though - for the past five years all they wanted was Thaksin personally descending from heaven and giving them money and forgiving their debts.

Now Thaksin has shown the way and soon we'll all sorts of crooks vying for farmer votes by promising heaven on earth, so that these opportunists can come back to Bangkok and shake their fists at the establishment. Otherwise no one would listen to them.

[Old Man River]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

[hammered]

The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them.

Control or no control, farmers would never worry about government agencies. They are farmers, they farm land. At most they can lobby the government for a price intervention. And I'm talking about the US and European farmers. Thais are even less interested in politics.

What they MIGHT be interested in is their communities, having some control over their own lives. Evidence suggests otherwise, though - for the past five years all they wanted was Thaksin personally descending from heaven and giving them money and forgiving their debts.

Now Thaksin has shown the way and soon we'll all sorts of crooks vying for farmer votes by promising heaven on earth, so that these opportunists can come back to Bangkok and shake their fists at the establishment. Otherwise no one would listen to them.

I think we have seen all kind of crooks vying for farmers votes for aeons. These crooks are sometimes called politicians.

[hammered]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

Do you really feel the military will both want to and be able to stay in power for several years to come? I am interested as your posts are usually incisive and I think accurate.

[blaze]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

So what is the solution? Disenfrachise the farmers? Educate them so that they no longer vote for policies which promise to fatten their wallets? If that can be done here, perhaps you might want to consider educating the wealthy in the west to vote against tax cuts for the rich, against corporate welfare, against reduced social programs. Or is it permissable for the rich to vote for policies which rob state coffers- but not the poor.

Yes the poor don't care too much about the well being of the source of their next meal. And you honestly think the middle and wealthy classes do? When was the last time there was a middle class movement in Thailand to rectify the economic disparities and address the exploitation of the rural poor?

[Old Man River]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

So what is the solution? Disenfrachise the farmers? Educate them so that they no longer vote for policies which promise to fatten their wallets? If that can be done here, perhaps you might want to consider educating the wealthy in the west to vote against tax cuts for the rich, against corporate welfare, against reduced social programs. Or is it permissable for the rich to vote for policies which rob state coffers- but not the poor.

Yes the poor don't care too much about the well being of the source of their next meal. And you honestly think the middle and wealthy classes do? When was the last time there was a middle class movement in Thailand to rectify the economic disparities and address the exploitation of the rural poor?

Maybe there isn't any solution. Maybe that is just the way it is. Or, maybe politics evolves to where political parties have platforms and include the farmers in their policies. Time will tell, but for sure, it has been this way for a long, long time and it won't change overnight.

[hammered]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

So what is the solution? Disenfrachise the farmers? Educate them so that they no longer vote for policies which promise to fatten their wallets? If that can be done here, perhaps you might want to consider educating the wealthy in the west to vote against tax cuts for the rich, against corporate welfare, against reduced social programs. Or is it permissable for the rich to vote for policies which rob state coffers- but not the poor.

Yes the poor don't care too much about the well being of the source of their next meal. And you honestly think the middle and wealthy classes do? When was the last time there was a middle class movement in Thailand to rectify the economic disparities and address the exploitation of the rural poor?

Cant argue with that, but I personally believe education may help in another area. At the moment the politicians that the farmers vote for either locally or nationally rely on the status quo as much as anyone else. They give with one hand whether it be direct cash, cows, sheep, health care, whatever but they keep the farmers down with another by increasing the level of indebtedness they can get into and of course a lot of people who have little dont know how to use credit, and also who can blame them if they want a motorcycle, dvd player and flashy mobile phone as they lead a hard life. Even those trying to invest it dirctly in their farming are taking risks as crops fail, animals die and machinery needs servicing and can break. That however, does not worry the local politicians because the farmers remain poor and easy for them to use, and each disaster for the farmers creates an opportunity for the local political class to exploit. The last thing these local politicians (or those from elsewhere) want is real efforts to rectify economic disparities which have been increasing in Thailand over the years. In this area proper education does offer an opportunity for the poorer elements of society and here we should include some urban workers and fishermen too. However, it doesnt look like any agenda of reform will be proposed soon as people would rather fight over Thaksin.

[Old Man River]

Cant argue with that, but I personally believe education may help in another area. At the moment the politicians that the farmers vote for either locally or nationally rely on the status quo as much as anyone else. They give with one hand whether it be direct cash, cows, sheep, health care, whatever but they keep the farmers down with another by increasing the level of indebtedness they can get into and of course a lot of people who have little dont know how to use credit, and also who can blame them if they want a motorcycle, dvd player and flashy mobile phone as they lead a hard life. Even those trying to invest it dirctly in their farming are taking risks as crops fail, animals die and machinery needs servicing and can break. That however, does not worry the local politicians because the farmers remain poor and easy for them to use, and each disaster for the farmers creates an opportunity for the local political class to exploit. The last thing these local politicians (or those from elsewhere) want is real efforts to rectify economic disparities which have been increasing in Thailand over the years. In this area proper education does offer an opportunity for the poorer elements of society and here we should include some urban workers and fishermen too. However, it doesnt look like any agenda of reform will be proposed soon as people would rather fight over Thaksin.

Hammered, like probably yourself, I have been here for a number of years. How many times have we heard that education is the answer? Hundreds, thousands? Everyone says it is the answer to improving the economic status of those upcountry. However, somehow it never happens. This is a patriarchal society and has been so for hundreds of years. There is, simply, no incentive to change it by the people who can change it. For a small time Thaksin seemed to be the one who had power that really wanted to help. However, it now looks like the only person he wanted to help was himself. Back to business as usual.

[hammered]

Cant argue with that, but I personally believe education may help in another area. At the moment the politicians that the farmers vote for either locally or nationally rely on the status quo as much as anyone else. They give with one hand whether it be direct cash, cows, sheep, health care, whatever but they keep the farmers down with another by increasing the level of indebtedness they can get into and of course a lot of people who have little dont know how to use credit, and also who can blame them if they want a motorcycle, dvd player and flashy mobile phone as they lead a hard life. Even those trying to invest it dirctly in their farming are taking risks as crops fail, animals die and machinery needs servicing and can break. That however, does not worry the local politicians because the farmers remain poor and easy for them to use, and each disaster for the farmers creates an opportunity for the local political class to exploit. The last thing these local politicians (or those from elsewhere) want is real efforts to rectify economic disparities which have been increasing in Thailand over the years. In this area proper education does offer an opportunity for the poorer elements of society and here we should include some urban workers and fishermen too. However, it doesnt look like any agenda of reform will be proposed soon as people would rather fight over Thaksin.

Hammered, like probably yourself, I have been here for a number of years. How many times have we heard that education is the answer? Hundreds, thousands? Everyone says it is the answer to improving the economic status of those upcountry. However, somehow it never happens. This is a patriarchal society and has been so for hundreds of years. There is, simply, no incentive to change it by the people who can change it. For a small time Thaksin seemed to be the one who had power that really wanted to help. However, it now looks like the only person he wanted to help was himself. Back to business as usual.

You are right that nothing has really changed. Yes patriarchal it is indeed. And education always seems to be low on any governments agenda. The problem is imho that education is not in the interests of the politicians and others with power so it never happens. As you say. Business as usual.

[blaze]

I don't think the average Thai give a flying duck about corruption. So Thacko walks away with 73 billion untaxed profit from a dodgy sales made possible by changing the rules. So what? His good luck is what most Thai's think, sad but true.

It's only the educated Thai's that see the damage done to society by rampant corruption. And of course it's only the educated, middle class, tax paying Thai's that get p1ssed off seeing public money getting used in "populist" policies in order to get Thacko re-elected.

The average Thai only cares about putting food on the table TODAY and if a man gives them 500 Baht sure they'll vote for him 'cos he's a good man. And if that man drives around in a top of the range Merc and lives in a swanky mansion he must be a very good, very clever man and how he gets his money is not even considered. Where the man's money comes from they do not care as long as it's not from their pocket. Where the money comes from for the "populist" policies is also irrelevant. If it comes from the pockets of them there city dwellers that's OK, those people are only one step down from farangs in the cash cow stakes.

It's the mai phen rai attitude, which is only an extension of our western conception of "only worry about the things you can control". The average rice farmer in Issarn has no control over government agencies and politicians so he doesn't worry about them. What he does worry about is where the next meal is coming from, the source of that meal is of no concern.

Spot on, mate. Also Plus' comments on every Tom, Dick and Harry promising farmer's anything under the sun for their vote. Due to the easy access to these votes, it is the reason why the military believes it must remain in control for several years to come.

So what is the solution? Disenfrachise the farmers? Educate them so that they no longer vote for policies which promise to fatten their wallets? If that can be done here, perhaps you might want to consider educating the wealthy in the west to vote against tax cuts for the rich, against corporate welfare, against reduced social programs. Or is it permissable for the rich to vote for policies which rob state coffers- but not the poor.

Yes the poor don't care too much about the well being of the source of their next meal. And you honestly think the middle and wealthy classes do? When was the last time there was a middle class movement in Thailand to rectify the economic disparities and address the exploitation of the rural poor?

Cant argue with that, but I personally believe education may help in another area. At the moment the politicians that the farmers vote for either locally or nationally rely on the status quo as much as anyone else. They give with one hand whether it be direct cash, cows, sheep, health care, whatever but they keep the farmers down with another by increasing the level of indebtedness they can get into and of course a lot of people who have little dont know how to use credit, and also who can blame them if they want a motorcycle, dvd player and flashy mobile phone as they lead a hard life. Even those trying to invest it dirctly in their farming are taking risks as crops fail, animals die and machinery needs servicing and can break. That however, does not worry the local politicians because the farmers remain poor and easy for them to use, and each disaster for the farmers creates an opportunity for the local political class to exploit. The last thing these local politicians (or those from elsewhere) want is real efforts to rectify economic disparities which have been increasing in Thailand over the years. In this area proper education does offer an opportunity for the poorer elements of society and here we should include some urban workers and fishermen too. However, it doesnt look like any agenda of reform will be proposed soon as people would rather fight over Thaksin.

Well stated, Hammered.

Several weeks ago one of the local papers quoted a columnist in the Financial Times as saying that the income disparity in Thailand provided fertile ground in which the seeds of a truly radical upheaval could be planted- he went on to say that he preferred the military over what could come about- (of course, the paper took his warning of a charismatic demogogue with grass roots support to mean Taksin- and that the columnist supported the coup) - but I suspect what he really foresaw- was a democratic seizure of power by real socialists- as is sweeping through South America- another Chavez, or Morales- or even da Silva. (The FT is all for democracy- to a point- that point being when it threatens the American globalist corporate agenda).

Even the current regime recognizes, as you do, that the inequalities in Thailand must be addressed. And education? Be careful what you/we wish for. An educated underclass would not tolerate this kind of income gap- they haven't in other countries and they won't here. And if there is not a right wing movement to deny democracy in this country, I'd be very surprised. Because given the numbers, and a truly democratic system of government, it's just a matter of time...

Edited January 29, 2007 by blaze

[sriracha john]

Does stumonster get a commission for the use of his copyrighted avatar on the new currency?

[chuchok]

Education won't help.The USA voted GWB back in......

[Tony Clifton]

Slow learners?

[ando]

Interesting to see some intelligent soul searching comments rather than the usual anti-Thaksin, anti-Issarn rants.

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy. You would have to bring in the military and take over government to disenfranchise the peasant vote.

The big factor that helps to maintain the current degree of stability in Thailand is the almost universal loyalty to the monarch. When that era passes, it will be a whole different ball game.

[sriracha john]

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy.

Which is then to say that Thailand wasn't a democracy at all under Thaksin, because keeping them uneducated was exactly what he did. Whether it was during the time he assigned his own vaunted self to serve concurrently as Education Minister or during any of the plethora of changes to the Education Minister position before and after him, the education system failed miserably during his regime.

Edited January 30, 2007 by sriracha john

[John K]

Obstructive officials face tough action from above

Bureaucrats who fail to file damage reports could be reshuffled: Sonthi

Ministers have to take responsibility for any obstruction to the work of the Assets Examination Committee (AEC) if government agencies fail to file complaints against people alleged to have committed wrongdoing by the AEC, the head of the Council for National Security (CNS) said yesterday.

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin said ministers would have to file the complaints or tell damaged agencies to file the complaints. The CNS would only be able

to coordinate with the government to help the AEC solve problems.

Sonthi was speaking after a meeting with the AEC, and prime minister's secretary-general General Pongthep Tesprateep.

He said the main problem the AEC faced was lack of cooperation from government agencies, especially when it needed complaints against the wrongdoers to be filed by agencies deemed to have suffered losses.

Sonthi said government officials "working inactively" would have to improve, because the time for annual reshuffles was drawing near.

AEC spokesman Sak Korseangruang said the AEC had asked for the Cabinet's resolution to have government agencies cooperate with the AEC in filing complaints.

However, it also asked for amendment to the law, cancelling the requirement of damaged parties to file complaints against alleged wrongdoers, he said.

"If the amendment doesn't take too long and corruption eradication is set as a national agenda, it will benefit the AEC. We are one-third through our allotted time, so we have to hurry to finish the work in time," he said.

Appointed by the coup makers last September, the AEC has a one-year term.

AEC members attending the meeting included Sak, AEC chairman Nam Yimyaem, Khunying Jaruvan Maintaka, Udom Fuangfung, Klanarong Chantik and Amnuay Tantara. General Winai Phattiyakul, CNS secretary-general, General Saprang Kalayanamitra and General Anupong Paochinda, assistants to Sonthi were also at the meeting.

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, who was scheduled to attend the meeting, was in Phetchaburi meeting university executives.

Government spokesman Yongyuth Mayalarp, said Surayud would meet the AEC soon.

Nam said: "I'm confident

that from now on the AEC will

be able to work smoothly and receive proper cooperation. However, it will be up to the consideration and power of the government and the CNS as to what measures they will take against the agencies who are not being cooperative."

A CNS assistant secretary, Saprang told the AEC to do its "very best against corruption" as he was serious about the problem, Nam said.

Nam said the Ministry of Foreign Affairs had also agreed to translate documents relating to AEC investigations from foreign languages into Thai, for the AEC to use as evidence in court - including the procurement of the CTX 9000 bomb scanners and fireboats.

Nam said the AEC had not asked the government and the CNS to reshuffle officials who were reluctant to file complaints - as the issue was up to them to consider.

The AEC had earlier complained that government officials were reluctant to file complaints against the wrongdoers, partly because they were also in charge during the ousted Thaksin Shinawatra government - or were still "loyal" to Thaksin.

Sak said the AEC has also appointed two investigation committees yesterday. AEC member Banjerd Singkaneti will chair the panel investigating the Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives Ministry's rubber seedlings project, while Udom will chair the panel investigating the land purchase of Thaksin's wife Khunying Pojaman.

He said the AEC should be able to finish its investigation into the alleged tax evasion case against Pojaman and her brother Bhanapot Damapong, by early February.

Panya Thiewsangwan,

Bancha Khaengkhan

The Nation

[Tony Clifton]

Corruption Probes: Ministers Won't Point The Finger

Bureaucrats who fail to file damage reports could be reshuffled

Reshuffled? Inactive post? Demoted? Too soft...A picture is worth a thousand... delators.

[Plus]

Several weeks ago one of the local papers quoted a columnist in the Financial Times as saying that the income disparity in Thailand provided fertile ground in which the seeds of a truly radical upheaval could be planted- he went on to say that he preferred the military over what could come about- (of course, the paper took his warning of a charismatic demogogue with grass roots support to mean Taksin- and that the columnist supported the coup) - but I suspect what he really foresaw- was a democratic seizure of power by real socialists- as is sweeping through South America- another Chavez, or Morales- or even da Silva.

Have you ever seen Giles Ungpakorn of Thai Socialist Workers party mentioned in this forum? That's the kind of socialists who actively look for rural votes now, reportedly. Some of them might succeed.

You woldn't let any other man courting your wife or husband. You probably know yourself very well how effectively sweet talk works. "Oh he/she doesn't really care about you, you don't fullfil your potential with him/her. He/she doesn't deserve you. I promise. Bla bla bla." You wouldn't give anyone a chance to sweettalk your partner out of your life, there's no democracy there.

<snip>

I'm not surprised that Giles in under surveylance now.

Even the current regime recognizes, as you do, that the inequalities in Thailand must be addressed. And education? Be careful what you/we wish for. An educated underclass would not tolerate this kind of income gap- they haven't in other countries and they won't here. And if there is not a right wing movement to deny democracy in this country, I'd be very surprised. Because given the numbers, and a truly democratic system of government, it's just a matter of time...

So far education has led to prosperity in Thailand, not to revolution. Look at those who broke out of poverty and reached middle class levels - they form they popular support base for the coup! Educated people are not DENIED their fair chance in life in Thailand. They strive to improve the system, not to destroy it, like socialists.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Jai Dee
References to Thai monarchy deleted

[sriracha john]

An alternative is to modify the requirement that allows the "delators" to stall the investigations. That would get things moving along.

Government agrees with assets scrutiny panel's move

The government yesterday agreed in principle with the Assets Scrutiny Committee's push for the amendment of the anti-graft law to do away with a requirement that a corruption charge could only be filed by state agencies on its behalf. The move was aimed at speeding up the process used to file criminal charges against politicians accused of corruption. The amendment was proposed because the requirement was seen as impractical, ASC spokesman Sak Korsaengruang quoted panel chairman Nam Yimyaem as saying. "If the agencies themselves are involved in corruption with the politicians, as is often the case, why would they then want to file complaints against themselves?" he asked.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/30Jan2007_news02.php

[younghusband]

Interesting to see some intelligent soul searching comments rather than the usual anti-Thaksin, anti-Issarn rants.

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy. You would have to bring in the military and take over government to disenfranchise the peasant vote.

The big factor that helps to maintain the current degree of stability in Thailand is the almost universal loyalty to the monarch. When that era passes, it will be a whole different ball game.

The point you raise about democracy dealing with an under class is by no means unique to Thailand.From the very beginning of an expanding franchise in early nineteenth century Britain was a similar debate on how to deal with the poor and uneducated multitudes in a representative system of government.The usual way to adddress this concern was through various restrictions requiring levels of literacy, minimum wealth, house ownership etc.The argument usually went that the rural farmer majority was just too ignorant and easily corrupted.Underlying the resistance to universal suffrage was the feeling that the nation actually belonged to the "upper ten thousand", and that the ordinary masses had a lesser status.Needless to say women were excluded altogether.Gradually and by no means just from the left the awareness grew that morality required full representation for everybody, and paradoxically that this would strengthen the integrity of the country not weaken it.Accompanying this was the realisation that ordinary people were no more corruptible than the elite, and in some ways less so.The overriding concern once it became clear the nation would be a representative democracy was the drive for a better and universal educational system."We must educate our masters" as one prominent politician observed.

Other countries had different experiences but the debate about the underclass was always the same although clearly it became less agonised as the middle class expanded and educational standards improved.The painful aspect for the elite was the inevitability of a transfer of resources from the majority to the minority, and I expect this is what gives the debate its sting in current day Thailand.But there is always a choice for the elite as to whether the change will occur peacefully as in UK or bloodily.You therefore have to ask yourself the question -does the elite in Thailand have the savvy to preserve its position through concessions, ie enlightened self interest?

[Plus]

"We must educate our masters"

Other countries had different experiences but the debate about the underclass was always the same although clearly it became less agonised as the middle class expanded and educational standards improved.The painful aspect for the elite was the inevitability of a transfer of resources from the majority to the minority, and I expect this is what gives the debate its sting in current day Thailand.But there is always a choice for the elite as to whether the change will occur peacefully as in UK or bloodily.You therefore have to ask yourself the question -does the elite in Thailand have the savvy to preserve its position through concessions, ie enlightened self interest?

Now you are talking!

Both the coup and the self-sufficiency theory can be seen as attempts by the elite to improve the country and both are generally welcome. Will they succeed? Will they stay the course?

Some people are worried that the junta will rule with an iron fist and turn it into a dictatorship. Some people are worried that self-sufficiency is a covert attempt to keep the peasants happy with their lot. They are in minority but they make themselves heard.

[ando]

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy.

Which is then to say that Thailand wasn't a democracy at all under Thaksin

--- "which is then to say"

Oh dear. Another one of SJ's intellectual moments of wisdom that adds to the quality of the debate.

Sad the poor bugger cant let go of his Thaksin bashing attitude and move on to discuss a way forward.

On par with the current military imposed government really. They are making such a botch up of things in real time while they are stuck in the past fighting an enemy who isn't there anymore.

[ando]

The painful aspect for the elite was the inevitability of a transfer of resources from the majority to the minority,

Arrr... is that a typo or am I missing some historical point here?

Plus seems to think its a good idea though.

[Plus]

It's a typo, obviously. From minority to majority. We can wait for Younhusbands clarification, though.

[blaze]

"We must educate our masters"

Other countries had different experiences but the debate about the underclass was always the same although clearly it became less agonised as the middle class expanded and educational standards improved.The painful aspect for the elite was the inevitability of a transfer of resources from the majority to the minority, and I expect this is what gives the debate its sting in current day Thailand.But there is always a choice for the elite as to whether the change will occur peacefully as in UK or bloodily.You therefore have to ask yourself the question -does the elite in Thailand have the savvy to preserve its position through concessions, ie enlightened self interest?

Now you are talking!

Both the coup and the self-sufficiency theory can be seen as attempts by the elite to improve the country and both are generally welcome. Will they succeed? Will they stay the course?

Some people are worried that the junta will rule with an iron fist and turn it into a dictatorship. Some people are worried that self-sufficiency is a covert attempt to keep the peasants happy with their lot. They are in minority but they make themselves heard.

Younghusband referred to 'the inevitability of transfer of resources from the minority to the majority (I hope that is what he intended - his actual wording was majority to the minority!). Do you see this happening under the current regime? Or inspired by the sufficiency economy? Yes Surayat has said the income gap must be addressed- but so far all he has done is apply some cosmetic changes to some of Taksins programs (eg the million dollar cow project).

Either the poor -rural and urban- are accorded a place at the table- or they are apt to wreck the party. Especially when they acquire enough education to understand that the old patrongage system- (noblesse oblige) is no longer working for them --- and maybe never really did.

As Younghusband correctly points out, Britain (and many other western countries) avoided bloody revolution by giving the poor hope- by lessening the opressive conditions of their labor-by respecting the rights of the poor to fight against the more egregious forms of exploitation, and above all by welcoming them into the political process. NOT by armed takeovers of governments that were supported by the poor. NOT by preaching to the poor about how to make the best of what they have because they ain't gonna get any more. NOT by sneering at the poor for wanting to buy a motor cycle on credit while driving a mercedes that still has payments owing.

Edited January 30, 2007 by blaze