Building A House In Issan

[khunandy]

Is it generally cheaper to construct the upper floor on a house model such as this out of masonry and concrete versus wood? My first thought was that wood frame construction would be more lightweight and less labor intensive but figured that perhaps in Thailand, the cost of wood versus brick & cement ....and relatively cheap labor ...must make the latter more cost effective. I suppose that termites would still be a problem even if elevated 3 m off the ground

Hi NovaBlue05,

I did ask about that and was tossing it around for a while but decided not to deviate from the plans. I wouldn't have a clue regarding cost comparisons , there are plenty of masonary lower / timber upper houses in rural Thailand, probably 99.9% of them. So it would be very feasable to modify a plan if you wanted to I guess.

Regards

Khun Andy

[khunandy]

quote name='khunandy' date='2007-01-27 18:29:12' post='1106000']

Building a house at Phu Pha Man, Khon Kaen. 2006/7

Update on the project. So far so good. 20-03-07

Well here I am two months later with some progress photos. Everything has been running fairly smoothly, one or two "<deleted>" moments but nothing too dramatic, I have still been able to get to the house every month and there have been a few little misunderstandings in regard to window placememnts, door into an ensuite but these have been rectified with a minimum of fuss. I first look at something that may be wrong and ask myself if it really matters and can I wotk around it. If the answer is yes (and sometimes it has been a more practical solution the builder has come up with) I go with the flow, if it is a <deleted> up the builder, my wife and I go across the road to the little noodle house, have a beer, go over the plans and then he changes it.

There has been one or two decisions my wife has made to surprise me and I havent had the heart to do anything but smile and thank her. The glass block windows on the lower left room for instance, why, I dont know!!!! Something to do with security but that didnt make sense as around the corner in the same room are two standard windows. Can I live with it?...yes. Will I be upset if the pickup happens to reverse too close to the house with scaffold tubing on the roof rack and accidently smashes the blocks?...no.

Just talking about the wife, what a champion she has been, she is there every day, all day, the family noodle shop across the road is the ladies meeting/gossip centre and it has a view of the house..this place is"Mission Control" and she is there to keep an eye on things and consult with the foreman etc. I have really enjoyed her daily reports via telephone and watching her gain more and more confidance throughout the project.

All in all I am extremely happy with the results so far, of course there are some things I would change if I had my time again, that is too be expected. There has been no problemns with the builder or the foreman, I am pretty well treated like a building inspector when I arrive but the wife is the boss and I dont tread on her toes, she asks me, she tells them...its a good system.

As I write this, all the stucco / render has been applied inside and out, I still don't know if the rooms are going to be plastered inside (I just cant seem to explain that over the phone, I am assured it will be "smooth" but to what degree remains to be seen)

One of the stucco guys fell off the scaffold the other day , the wife told me he is ok but "Have to have 14 "put togethers" in his bum"

My immediate thought was insurance etc , of which I have none, but he is back at work so it cant have been too bad, I do wonder however about insurance etc when building a house.

Anyway, here are some photos

[mossss]

quote name='khunandy' date='2007-01-27 18:29:12' post='1106000']

Building a house at Phu Pha Man, Khon Kaen. 2006/7

Update on the project. So far so good. 20-03-07

Anyway, here are some photos

Andy, looks like you'll get the view you wanted every morning. Really, looks like it's coming on great. Good to see it in reality rather than just the plans.

Just signed the contract for my version of the same plans in Krabi, I'll get some photos up for anyone who's interested just as soon as we actually get started. I've gone with a company from phuket as they came from a slightly indirect recommendation and seem to be hungry to work and on the case, so hoping to have a similarly happy experience.

Made a few changes, I've lost the outside stairs, and the upstairs pagoda, and put in an office downstairs over half of the parking space (have a just a simple seperate cover for the car) and made the kitchen and dining room, one room. Also put in a bathroom downstairs, but structurally the same as the plans.

I've just had a kid, so safety is a high priority, I'm a bit worried about the balcony and the hole through to the ground, but think it's a nice touch to the plan so don't want to lose it. Also, the stairs, so will have to have a door at the top, etc etc

You mentioned that there were a few things you may have done differently if you could do it again. If you have a moment, it would be really interesting to know what those things were.

have to admit, I haven't asked about insurance, I will next time we meet though

... and thanks for being a pioneer for this plan,

[DavidOxon]

Great work . . . .

please keep the photos coming!

david

[charliemike11]

Hi Andy I am having a small house built in Udon Thani So far everything has gone great but I'm having a few concerns over the price of glass for the windows. I am told it is expensive but for a week now we cannot find a supplier and i get the feeling this is a delay tactic by the builder to then charge me a bomb! I maybe wrong but as I am back home in wales and unable to get back to Udon for a while I would appreciate any advice you can give

All the best

[technocracy]

Just too clarify a few comments on this thread:

1) The column (supports) distances are dependant on the size and the number of steel used in the the rebar. In our house we have near 7m and 6m wide rooms and not a single column in the room in the middle of the rooms. Our bedroom upstairs would of been 8m wide without a column however I couldn't get the correct size steel I beams to take the weight of the roof so there is one (off centre) which provides the addition support for the roof beams. The main beams in our house are 50cm deep and 20cm wide - with 10 lengths 20mm steel rebar making up the support. Most Thai/Lao (we're in Vientiane) houses are build using 12mm steel and half the time they only put 4 or 6 lengths (in a square) for support - hence only having loading bearing for smaller 3 - 3.5m rooms.

2) Concrete upstairs - why not! Yes you could use wood however buy the type of wood required to build it would be the problem. Also as you say termites are a big issue if you use the cheap soft wood. I am currently building a deck outside which is made up of hardwoods which in the UK I would be paying an absolute fortune for. Obviously lumber and the purchasing of logged rosewood trees (the preferred - wood which is resist to termites) is highly restricted. Try to buy rosewood beams - no one will have them.

Andy - Personally I went down the route of designing the house and basically handholding the builder all the way in terms of constructing it. My house is completely non-Lao or Thai in design and was told numerous time along the way - 'cannot' or other concerns people had. But now it is basically finished and via my own total hard headedness and total dedication of time it is nigh on exactly the house which I had on design (albeit minor design alterations such as lacks of I beams etc).

The manner which houses are build using the columns and beam structures moulds itself to any type of build - just making sure you have sufficient support in the structure etc is the only limit on what you can do.

Anyway good luck with the house - I am nearly finished and applying the finishing touches (and a 12m x 6m deck!) and it's a good feeling to sit back and say . . . I did it!!

Ps. Charliemike11 - We just had the glass finished in our house today and with lots of glass in doors and strange things such as round windows and arches all 5mm the total bill was 30k baht. I know this is Lao but it should be a figure for you work form (I think we have something like 22 windows with 3 panes each, 6 door half glass, 2 french doors and then a glass balcony (12mm glass))

[technocracy]

just a note - that should of read 11 not 22 windows!

It ain't a greenhouse!!

[maprao]

Well done! The house looks good. The free house plans on that site are very good indeed. I have just finished a house from the same site (with a few alterations).

The only thing that intrigues me from your original post was that the land had a mortage on it. There is very little land "upcountry" that has deeds that could be used for a mortage Certainly paddy or ex paddy fields fall into that category. Secondly the price of the land was a bit steep. But the what land is "worth" is in the eye of the purchaser.

I hope you have many happy years there with your wife. Now might be a time to look at getting a Usufruct on the property. I am not preaching doom and gloom as I have opted into the "Thailand retirement scheme" I help the Thai family and they have had the chance to help me out and did so!! However protecting your interests is a good idea.

I look forward to seeing the completed house pictures posted here.

[BIGJIMMY]

Lovely looking house by the plans there guv.

Whens the house-warming then - ha ha???

Jimmy

[randall]

Hi there does any one know what has happened to the website with the house plans on as i have been trying for about a month now and cannot get any thing for the site.Thanks Randall

[maprao]

Hi there does any one know what has happened to the website with the house plans on as i have been trying for about a month now and cannot get any thing for the site.Thanks Randall

Just tried it and it is working. Try this. Then select one of the options for various plans.

http://www.dpt.go.th/04work/house_model/doc_house.html

Click or paste into address bar.

[charliemike11]

Just too clarify a few comments on this thread:

1) The column (supports) distances are dependant on the size and the number of steel used in the the rebar. In our house we have near 7m and 6m wide rooms and not a single column in the room in the middle of the rooms. Our bedroom upstairs would of been 8m wide without a column however I couldn't get the correct size steel I beams to take the weight of the roof so there is one (off centre) which provides the addition support for the roof beams. The main beams in our house are 50cm deep and 20cm wide - with 10 lengths 20mm steel rebar making up the support. Most Thai/Lao (we're in Vientiane) houses are build using 12mm steel and half the time they only put 4 or 6 lengths (in a square) for support - hence only having loading bearing for smaller 3 - 3.5m rooms.

2) Concrete upstairs - why not! Yes you could use wood however buy the type of wood required to build it would be the problem. Also as you say termites are a big issue if you use the cheap soft wood. I am currently building a deck outside which is made up of hardwoods which in the UK I would be paying an absolute fortune for. Obviously lumber and the purchasing of logged rosewood trees (the preferred - wood which is resist to termites) is highly restricted. Try to buy rosewood beams - no one will have them.

Andy - Personally I went down the route of designing the house and basically handholding the builder all the way in terms of constructing it. My house is completely non-Lao or Thai in design and was told numerous time along the way - 'cannot' or other concerns people had. But now it is basically finished and via my own total hard headedness and total dedication of time it is nigh on exactly the house which I had on design (albeit minor design alterations such as lacks of I beams etc).

The manner which houses are build using the columns and beam structures moulds itself to any type of build - just making sure you have sufficient support in the structure etc is the only limit on what you can do.

Anyway good luck with the house - I am nearly finished and applying the finishing touches (and a 12m x 6m deck!) and it's a good feeling to sit back and say . . . I did it!!

Ps. Charliemike11 - We just had the glass finished in our house today and with lots of glass in doors and strange things such as round windows and arches all 5mm the total bill was 30k baht. I know this is Lao but it should be a figure for you work form (I think we have something like 22 windows with 3 panes each, 6 door half glass, 2 french doors and then a glass balcony (12mm glass))

Cheers Techno, I managed to aquire 7 large beautiful windows with 27 panes of glass all done with handles hinges etc for less than 20 thou Baht. The frames were the expensive part. I would have loved french doors!! to late now. Good luck with your new home.

[khunandy]

Well done! The house looks good. The free house plans on that site are very good indeed. I have just finished a house from the same site (with a few alterations).

The only thing that intrigues me from your original post was that the land had a mortage on it. There is very little land "upcountry" that has deeds that could be used for a mortage Certainly paddy or ex paddy fields fall into that category. Secondly the price of the land was a bit steep. But the what land is "worth" is in the eye of the purchaser.

I hope you have many happy years there with your wife. Now might be a time to look at getting a Usufruct on the property. I am not preaching doom and gloom as I have opted into the "Thailand retirement scheme" I help the Thai family and they have had the chance to help me out and did so!! However protecting your interests is a good idea.

I look forward to seeing the completed house pictures posted here.

Hi Maprao,

Thanks for the comments, the house is supposed to be finished at the end of this month, I was there 3 weeks ago and I am happy with the results so far.

You are right about the value of the land being in the eye of the purchaser, I wasn't sure about the price but was happy enough with the "ball park" figure. It is the last house of the village and on an arterial road, good for a business if we decide later and enough land to persue some hobbies on.

The block next door (slightly smaller) just got sold Thai - Thai for the same as we bought ours so I guess we did OK.

As for the mortgage, I dont know what the usual situation with "up country" land but the sellers had the deeds etc and had borrowed against the land. They didnt want to pay out the loan to free the deeds until we insisted, it was a big day out to the bank and the land office etc for the wife but I simply wasnt going to turn a shovel of earth until it was ours (hers).

The local Amphur has insisted that any land sales must be resurveyed and pegged now to update and improve their records. They were very good with us and helped us step by step to ensure everything was done correctly.

Which brings me to the topic of Usufruct. I have to look into this as I do intend on protecting myself somewhat. Just that old farang peace of mind thing. I will have to do some research on the matter, do most lawyers provide this service?

PS

Photos up in a week or so

regards

Andy

[maprao]

I imagine they will. However send "Sunbelt"an email and they will advise you. It ensures the land under the house ( upto 1 Rai will be in your name) should something happen to your wife. Its the only way a farang can own land. I beleive its only valid for your lifetime as well. Anyway I wouldn't worry too much. All in good time!! Enjoy the house.

[blue eyes]

The local Amphur has insisted that any land sales must be resurveyed and pegged now to update and improve their records. They were very good with us and helped us step by step to ensure everything was done correctly.

regards

Andy

That is an excelent Idea,to get an updated survey.Look at the photo and I will tell you why.

You will notice that the marker is not in the ground but sitting on top of the ground.I asked,well the wife asked the owner of the home that we were at and the answer she got was.We know were it goes so it is OK.Upon further investgation I found out it is a property marker from their rice patty land about 3km away.But as they say they know were it goes!

[maprao]

For KhunAndy I found what you asked. Yes a Lawyer can do it. Everyone's circumstances are different but to me this seems the most sensible option:

Recommend a usufruct. This is a right granted by an owner of land in favour of a usufructuary whereby the usufructuary has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of the property. The usefructuary can also have the right of management of the property.

A usufruct may be created for your natural life. You also can lease the land to a third party which would not end if you died. Example: If you died, you can lease out the property to a third party before your demise as per the Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998; 'the lessor does not have to be the owner of the property. Therefore the usefructuary can rent out the land. Although in the event of death of the usefructuary within the lease term, only the usufruct will be terminated but not also the lease'.

This way, a thirty year lease ( third party…only can be granted a maximum of thirty years) This could be passed on to your children or other relative even though you have died. (As long as the lease was done before you died)

With the usufruct, you are registered on the title deed. The land can never be sold or transferred by the owner of the land until the servitude is terminated. You can also get a yellow book which is a House Registration Certificate ( Thor. Ror 13)

The usufruct would be registered with a 1.5% tax of the value of the benefit( If you are not married to a Thai wife, if you are, the tax is less than 100 Baht). The firm charges 9,500 for the drafting of the agreement, 8,500 for registration of the usufruct, House Registration Certificate( yellow book Thor Ror 13) professional registration fees are 8,800 Baht.

I hope that helps.

Maprao

[chanchao]

What a lovely house!!

It's almost EXACTLY what I have in mind myself, (very) long term: A Thai style house but built with modern, sensible, cost effective and low-maintenance materials. I might even stick wood (or something that looks like it) on the outside upstairs to make it look more traditional, but the main structure would still be concrete, bricks and cement.

The dimensions would also depend on the shape of the land, for example I can imagine 'stretching' it a little, with a larger (wider) back building and smaller (more square) rooms on either side. Then you'd get a more rectangular footprint rather than a square one, as well as a larger and more rectangular open central space.

[AZZZEY68]

What were your final costs etc.

[siamaloha]

I'd love to see some pictures of your completed home Khun Andy, as it should be finished by now?

[chanchao]

Yes, would love to see an update.. Or even if things went bad or just slow, please don't be shy, it can always be fixed again.

[ClaudeFeller]

Congratulations, Andy!

Nice project and well done so far. Just post more pics when it will be finished..

One question: In how many terms did you have to pay?

Last year I did about the same in Samui. I hired a contractor, my wife did supervisor and I just had some calls to the engineer by cellphone. Almost no problems at all. The big deal was: Choose an easy plan and dont change too much after they start building. And I didnt choose the cheapest contractor but the one who looked the most reliable to me.

After moving inside we had some termites inside the wooden stairs so they had to replace parts of the wood for free.

Dont forget that you have a one-year-guarantee on the building!

I am just bored with the aluminum frames of the windows - they are very hot when the sun is shining on them. But wooden frames seemed to be too expensive... wrong decision after all!

Cheers from Samui,

Claude

[danfred]

our new home is being built in Roi Et... our original interest was in this plan (http://www.masterplan101.com/plan_04_2.html) from a firm based in Bangkok. They quoted over 6 million baht to build the house so we decided to hire a local architect and engineer to produce a simular plan and build... so far so good.

currently they are working on the 2nd floor ceiling and completing work on the first floor walls. as you can see there's still a long way to go before it can be lived in. i asked that priority be taken to make the bedrooms and bathrooms liveable... so i expect to move in 3-4 months from now. here's a breakdown on the room sizes if you're interested.

FLOOR 1

kitchen 32sq.m. / 344sq.ft.

livingroom 60sq.m. / 646sq.ft.

diningroom 32sq.m. / 344sq.ft

central area (entertaining/bar/staircase) 99sq.m. / 1,066sq.ft.

guest bathroom 5sq.m. / 54 sq.ft.

bedroom 1 23sq.m. / 348 sq.ft

bedroom 1 bathroom 4sq.m. / 43 sq.ft.

bedroom 2 20sq.m. / 215sq.ft.

bedroom 2 bathroom 5sq.m. / 54 sq.ft.

FLOOR 2

office 32sq.m. / 344sq.ft.

bedroom 3 23sq.m. / 348sq.ft.

bedroom 3 bathroom 4sq.m. / 43sq.ft.

master bedroom 68sq.m. / 732sq.ft.

master bathroom 18sq.m. / 194sq.ft.

central area (hall/staircase/opening to floor 1) 32sq.m. / 344sq.ft.

terrace area (outdoor) 141sq.m. / 1,518sq.ft.

FLOOR 3

entertaining (incl. staircase area) 61sq.m. / 657sq.ft.

terrace area (outdoor) 93sq.m. / 1,001sq.ft.

TOTAL AREA

indoor 518sq.m. / 5,576sq.ft

terrace (outdoor) 234sq.m. / 2,518sq.ft.

TOTAL VOLUME

indoor

(all ceilings are 3.4 meters / 11 feet high) 1,761cu.m. / 62,196cu.ft.

TOTAL COSTS

contract Baht 2,375,000 / US$ 69,500

contract includes all major construction materials and labor charges (including cement, steel, interior/exterior paint, interior doors, drywall for ceilings, floor tile installation, bathroom fixture installation, electrical and plumbing installation, exterior window and door installation, exterior terrace railings, driveway construction).

additional costs i will take care of include: all windows and exterior doors (custom made), bathroom fixtures (sinks, toilets, baths, etc.), electrical supples, light fixtures, plumbing supplies, kitchen appliances, kitchen cabinets (and installation), floor tiles, driveway materials. i agreed to pay for these charges myself primarily so i can be sure the materials meet "western" standards.

if interested i'll keep everyone updated as it comes along!

dan

[chanchao]

Whoa... nice!!!! Please don't go AWOL on us and keep sending pictures, even when hitting snags etc.. Pics should come, for better or for worse.

Main comment: That's a serious perimeter wall.. Is that necessary in that area? It would block a good part of the lower windows I guess?

[chanchao]

I am just bored with the aluminum frames of the windows - they are very hot when the sun is shining on them. But wooden frames seemed to be too expensive... wrong decision after all!

You should try to minimize sunlight on walls and windows anyway, never mind the frames! The frames I think are the least of your worry, it's the sunlight on the walls and especially through the windows that heats up the place. So I think you have some work to do involving awnings, roof overhangs or trees to provide shade..

I'm not decided if I like those sliding aluminium frames or wooden windows that open.

Aluminium: Doesn't need painting or maintenance and ants & termites don't eat it. They're also quick and easy to open and close. However, by design only 'half' of the available window space opens, because the right side slides in front of the left side, or the other way around. On the plus side again, this works well for sliding bug-screens.

Traditional wooden windows: These can be opened completely, allowing for more breeze to come in. However they're more fiddly to open and close. And as for bug screens, I'm not sure that sliding screens exist for them.. Those hinged screen that open inward sure are a royal hassle.

Discuss.

[ClaudeFeller]

I am just bored with the aluminum frames of the windows - they are very hot when the sun is shining on them. But wooden frames seemed to be too expensive... wrong decision after all!

You should try to minimize sunlight on walls and windows anyway, never mind the frames! The frames I think are the least of your worry, it's the sunlight on the walls and especially through the windows that heats up the place. So I think you have some work to do involving awnings, roof overhangs or trees to provide shade..

I'm not decided if I like those sliding aluminium frames or wooden windows that open.

Aluminium: Doesn't need painting or maintenance and ants & termites don't eat it. They're also quick and easy to open and close. However, by design only 'half' of the available window space opens, because the right side slides in front of the left side, or the other way around. On the plus side again, this works well for sliding bug-screens.

Traditional wooden windows: These can be opened completely, allowing for more breeze to come in. However they're more fiddly to open and close. And as for bug screens, I'm not sure that sliding screens exist for them.. Those hinged screen that open inward sure are a royal hassle.

Discuss.

Of course the windows are a problem too but the aluminum frames are the biggest heat bridge - no insulation between the inside and the outside frame.

I bought thick curtains to cover the windows on the east side of the house - this can help a lot already. We also plant some trees but it will take a couple of years until they give enough shadow.

In my other house there are wooden windows, no problems with ants or termites right now (10 years!). Since we did some roof overhangs I don't have to repaint the frames every year. The bug screens are really a royal hassle!

Well, it will take a couple of years more until these contractors are willing to built by an higher energy save standard.

[chanchao]

> Well, it will take a couple of years more until these contractors are willing to built

> by an higher energy save standard.

Well, it also depends on you and how badly you want it. Don't just be resigned in blaming contractors, you could pick up the phone right now and contact a company like this one and have proper windows, double glazing if you want, etc.

Also: one more link

[ClaudeFeller]

Chanchao,

You are right! It is my own mistake!

But I noticed the problem after the work was done and I never lived in a house with aluminum window frames.

I just wonder why the contractors never even propose a better (and more expensive) solution if it is about insulation. For a Thai, the temperature in the house is not a problem, just have buy a bigger A/C-unit.

Good links, thank you.

[thaigene2]

looks like you were lucky with finding a good builder - rare to hear in thailand.

Piles are essential for the building - up to 6 meters

londonthai,

Yes I am starting to think that I am lucky, sorry about the layout it didnt turn out as I expected with the photos interspersing the story . Ahh well, still learning.

In a way I think I am better off not being there every day to lean on him, everything is sorted out with my wife being the "middle man" with daily phonecalls to me checking that she is doing the right thing. It seems to be a good formula.

Andy

Yes, londonthai is a wise guy (as opposed to a 'wiseguy'). I'd listen to him if I were you. Also your post is great to follow developments. Hope you will keep me posted (PM me) as I'd like to follow this.

[chanchao]

Is it generally cheaper to construct the upper floor on a house model such as this out of masonry and concrete versus wood? My first thought was that wood frame construction would be more lightweight and less labor intensive but figured that perhaps in Thailand, the cost of wood versus brick & cement ....and relatively cheap labor ...must make the latter more cost effective. I suppose that termites would still be a problem even if elevated 3 m off the ground

I did ask about that and was tossing it around for a while but decided not to deviate from the plans. I wouldn't have a clue regarding cost comparisons , there are plenty of masonary lower / timber upper houses in rural Thailand, probably 99.9% of them. So it would be very feasable to modify a plan if you wanted to I guess.

I think an important reason for the ground floor masonry vs upper floor wood construction is that houses are often built to replace existing houses, and wood is re-used. So while bricks and cement are currently cheaper than wood, if you already have a whole pile of wood then that's even cheaper.

Look at this particular project, this guy actually bought an empty old wooden house just to take it down and re-use the wood: teak[remove_this]door.com/construction-in-thailand/14179-drandys-wooden-cottage-in-the-ricefields.html

Or, it's a matter of the lower floor being almost an after-thought, i.e. a traditional Thai house (in the cheap end) is essentially "an elevated wooden structure on concrete posts, with downstairs open as an area to work, park the tractor, laze about". Then when there is a need for additional rooms they fill in the space between the posts with cement and bricks and perhaps even a window if they feel fancy and voila: another room.

[NovaBlue05]

My wifes family has some wood already stockpiled (Not teak...I'm not sure what kind but it is a hardwood suitable for building I'm told....and it does look good). They are continually on the lookout for additional wood that they can buy "cheap" and seem to be able to sniff out people who have it and need money quick.. They have time as I wont be building probably for another 2-3 years. We just filled the paddy in last year. I am looking at something like KhunAndy's plan with separate structures on the upper deck where, in my case, all of the "non kitchen/dining" living area would be. I envisioned constructing a concrete slab for the groundfloor with the necessary concrete columns & beams and then a concrete deck upon which all of the upper floor structures would be framed up with wood.

I like the idea of constructing the prominent part of the house with wood as it looks good but I also think the lighter upper floor weight might even result in some savings on concrete if the columns/beams can be downsized. The low thermal mass of wood would allow it to cool quickly in the evenings. I would only be looking to air condition one of the upper floor structures (the master bedroom suite) . The others will likely be cooled naturally and with ceiling fans.