Thai court issues arrest warrant for human rights activist Andy Hall

[rkidlad]

3 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

It`s a case of a big righteous white guy defending the rights of those from the primitive regions of the world that need educating and taught how to run their affairs. No different to those self righteous, holier than thou missionaries that try to teach the natives how to become civilised using western values and virtues as their guide.

 

Let Thailand run it`s own country without the self righteous trying to show Thais the errors of their ways. Not needed here.

And I’m sure the people being mistreated in these factories would totally agree with you. 

[Russell17au]

If a person is so committed to their fight for what they believe in then they do not run away, they will stand a fight for their beliefs. The reason that this warrant was issued is because he ran away instead of fighting for his beliefs, so as far as I'm concerned he has lost all credibility in being a true activist.

[mihalis]

11 hours ago, colinneil said:

Once again Thailand is made to look stupid, arrest warrant for a man who highlighted big companies greed/ abuse.

When ohh when are those supposedly running the country realize they are making Thailand a laughing stock?

He should come to australia and get big brother stop abusing its workers, stop building industry killing its workers 

[pornprong]

3 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

If a person is so committed to their fight for what they believe in then they do not run away, they will stand a fight for their beliefs. The reason that this warrant was issued is because he ran away instead of fighting for his beliefs, so as far as I'm concerned he has lost all credibility in being a true activist.

You are confusing commitment to a cause with stupidity - a mistake Andy certainly didn't make.

 

 

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

[Russell17au]

12 minutes ago, pornprong said:

You are confusing commitment to a cause with stupidity - a mistake Andy certainly didn't make.

 

 

What is the mistake that Andy made failing to commit to his cause or being stupid

Edited April 25, 2018 by Russell17au

[Artisi]

13 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

If a person is so committed to their fight for what they believe in then they do not run away, they will stand a fight for their beliefs. The reason that this warrant was issued is because he ran away instead of fighting for his beliefs, so as far as I'm concerned he has lost all credibility in being a true activist.

He stood, fought and lost, and could see the cards were stacked against him. But of course you being so well versed in things Thai and how big money never rules the  roost and could never ever influence an outcome in their favour - you would have stayed, wouldn't you? 

[pornprong]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

What is the mistake that Andy made failing to commit to his cause or being stupid

Andy clearly knows that being committed to a cause does not require one to be stupid (which is what taking on the somewhat dubious Thai legal system would be).

 

[rkidlad]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

What is the mistake that Andy made failing to commit to his cause or being stupid

And what have you done to make the world a better place lately?

[Russell17au]

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

[Artisi]

6 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

And what have you done to make the world a better place lately?

<deleted>. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by metisdead
Profane acronym removed.

[stephen tracy]

Just now, Russell17au said:

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

Not walked away, driven away through threats, intimidation, coercion and lawsuits that would not stand up anywhere in the world except a banana republic.

[Artisi]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

Of course if he was banged up in a Thai prison that would have been a better outcome for the innocent people, now wouldn't it? 

[pornprong]

9 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

'The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.'"

[Artisi]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

Are they in a worse position? It would be interesting to see your investigation into that statement. 

[rkidlad]

6 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Artisi and pornprong, if you are not willing to fight for your commitment to the end then you should not start the fight in the first place. Andy has built up the hopes of innocent people and now he has walked away from them leaving them in possible worse conditions than what they would have been if he had not started the fight in the first place

You're basing this off what - conjecture?

 

He didn't walk into a bar, start a fight and walk out leaving his mates to deal with the trouble. 

 

He listened to some downtrodden people and reported on their story. I'd rather see him fighting from safety than fighting from a prison cell. 

[cyberfarang]

42 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

And I’m sure the people being mistreated in these factories would totally agree with you. 

Going back to my parents, grandparents and generations before them, they had to fight for their rights against unscrupulous employers and companies. Unions were formed and they fought long and hard to obtain decent working conditions and wages, a fair days work, for a fairs days pay.

 

There were no white knights defenders for their rights dictating to the employers how they should treat their labourers. Thai workers are no exception to the rule, this is a battle they have to fight on their own without do gooder western interference. Otherwise nothing will change.

[Russell17au]

Then it shows that he has not done his homework on what can happen to him before he came into Thailand and promised those people that he would fix things for them. He should have known before he started this what would happen but he ignored that. He was not forced to come here and try and do something stupid that could get him in prison. It is up to you to check things first and find out what the consequences are if you do try to change things and you must also think of what the ramifications are if things go wrong before you start. So now what has he gained? absolutely nothing because now the factory just goes back to the way it was and he has deserted those that he told he would fix things for them.

[stephen tracy]

Just now, cyberfarang said:

It`s a case of a big righteous white guy defending the rights of those from the primitive regions of the world that need educating and taught how to run their affairs. No different to those self righteous, holier than thou missionaries that try to teach the natives how to become civilised using western values and virtues as their guide.

 

Let Thailand run it`s own country without the self righteous trying to show Thais the errors of their ways. Not needed here.

You used the word primitive, not Mr Hall. Ahem, not quite the same as missionaries. Highlighting criminal practices that exploit the socio-economically disenfranchised is not quite the same thing as attempting to convince people to worship deities, nor does it have anything to do with so-called "western values", it's called fair play. These are not western values but modern values, which most of the world aspires too regardless of their respective "governments". It is not a Thai issue per se, it is about keeping big business in check, and Mr Hall was not the only one to have accused natural Fruit of labour violations. The list is long and to date includes Human Rights Watch, Finnwatch, the International Union of Food and many others. The only entity to have offered support to Natural Food is the Thai government, which speaks volumes. But I suppose these organizations, companies and trade unions are all wrong and enjoy wasting time, money and resources for the sake of being self-righteous. I would say nice try but your attempt at defending Natural Fruit is quite pathetic.

[rkidlad]

3 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Going back to my parents, grandparents and generations before them, they had to fight for their rights against unscrupulous employers and companies. Unions were formed and they fought long and hard to obtain decent working conditions and wages, a fair days work, for a fairs days pay.

 

There were no white knights defenders for their rights dictating to the employers how they should treat their labourers. Thai workers are no exception to the rule, this is a battle they have to fight on their own without do gooder western interference. Otherwise nothing will change.

I've fought for nothing. My grandparents and great grandparents, etc, fought for the rights I enjoy today. Thank god for these do gooders. Made my life a hell of a lot more easy. Oh, and I have Irish ancestry. But I won't hold that against my great grandparents. I'll take help from wherever I can get it. 

[CGW]

12 hours ago, colinneil said:

Once again Thailand is made to look stupid

I agree, there good at it! problem is they don't care!! the only way there stupidity may slow down is if it is highlighted by the so called "democratic west" yet I'm not seeing that, they are left to do what they want with no negative western press or foreign government "bad press"!

Why have they been given some sort of immunity?

[rkidlad]

27 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Then it shows that he has not done his homework on what can happen to him before he came into Thailand and promised those people that he would fix things for them. He should have known before he started this what would happen but he ignored that. He was not forced to come here and try and do something stupid that could get him in prison. It is up to you to check things first and find out what the consequences are if you do try to change things and you must also think of what the ramifications are if things go wrong before you start. So now what has he gained? absolutely nothing because now the factory just goes back to the way it was and he has deserted those that he told he would fix things for them.

Did he do that? I'd be very surprised if he did. But I agree with you - if he 'promised' these people he would fix things then he should be ashamed. Now, where's that link to him making this promise?

Edited April 25, 2018 by metisdead
Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording.

[stephen tracy]

Just now, Russell17au said:

Then it shows that he has not done his homework on what can happen to him before he came into Thailand and promised those people that he would fix things for them. He should have known before he started this what would happen but he ignored that. He was not forced to come here and try and do something stupid that could get him in prison. It is up to you to check things first and find out what the consequences are if you do try to change things and you must also think of what the ramifications are if things go wrong before you start. So now what has he gained? absolutely nothing because now the factory just goes back to the way it was and he has deserted those that he told he would fix things for them.

Not absolutely nothing, the company has been exposed for serious labour and human rights violations, including forced labour and human trafficking, which has been noted by multiple international organizations and companies and created public awareness. It also prompted companies under the umbrella of the Finnish Workers Union United to refuse to handle Natural Fruit products and highlighted the venality of the Thai "government" and the fact that its judiciary is anything but independent. So, not an insignificant victory.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

Did he do that? I'd be very surprised if he did. But I agree with you - if he 'promised' these people he would fix things then he should be ashamed. Now, where's that link to him making this promise?

All activists make these un-written promises same as your Grandparents and Great grandparents did so that things would be better for you. What if your Grand Parents and Great Grandparents walked out of the un-written commitment that they made before it was finished. Even though it is 2 different things the principles are the same. I have been involved in a war where there was a commitment and the promises were made to the people only to be left in the s**t when we could not win the war.

[rkidlad]

Just now, Russell17au said:

All activists make these un-written promises same as your Grandparents and Great grandparents did so that things would be better for you. What if your Grand Parents and Great Grandparents walked out of the un-written commitment that they made before it was finished. Even though it is 2 different things the principles are the same. I have been involved in a war where there was a commitment and the promises were made to the people only to be left in the s**t when we could not win the war.

My grandparents, etc, were not activists. And when you say 'unwritten promises' do you really mean 'unspoken promises'? Because I'd be completely shocked if Andy Hall made any promises to fix things. You seem to be assuming he did. 

[pornprong]

21 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Then it shows that he has not done his homework on what can happen to him before he came into Thailand and promised those people that he would fix things for them. He should have known before he started this what would happen but he ignored that. He was not forced to come here and try and do something stupid that could get him in prison. It is up to you to check things first and find out what the consequences are if you do try to change things and you must also think of what the ramifications are if things go wrong before you start. So now what has he gained? absolutely nothing because now the factory just goes back to the way it was and he has deserted those that he told he would fix things for them.

Yes, exactly.

Nobody should ever try to change anything for the better in case it doesn't work out.

You should be president the world.

 

[stephen tracy]

Just now, Russell17au said:

All activists make these un-written promises same as your Grandparents and Great grandparents did so that things would be better for you. What if your Grand Parents and Great Grandparents walked out of the un-written commitment that they made before it was finished. Even though it is 2 different things the principles are the same. I have been involved in a war where there was a commitment and the promises were made to the people only to be left in the s**t when we could not win the war.

1) "All activists make these in-written promises", not a fact. Most activists do not necessarily make promises by nature of the fact that they are often dealing with power structures and mechanism that they know they cannot beat. Most activists settle for exposing an issue with the aim of creating awareness. This is where activism is most effective, 2) "Your Grandparents and Great grandparents" also made these promises. Also, not a fact. My ancestors made no such promises to me or anyone else. 3) In war commitments last as long as the resolve and resources of those waging the war, and this varies depending on numerous factors. Also, people that wage wars are not activists in the conventional sense of the word.

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

My grandparents, etc, were not activists. And when you say 'unwritten promises' do you really mean 'unspoken promises'? Because I'd be completely shocked if Andy Hall made any promises to fix things. You seem to be assuming he did. 

Your Grandparents Etc, were activists same as I was in the Vietnam war, like your family I fought for the good of the people and it was the governments that cancelled the commitment and left the South Vietnamese people to face the North on their own. This is exactly the same principle but it appears that you cannot understand it or you are just trying to start an argument. How do you think Andy knew about the people and the conditions? Did the company tell him? he had to have meetings with the people to find out what was happening. Are you really that thick not to know that he needed to meet with the workers to gain the information that he had.

[ELVIS123456]

Thailand Laws are applicable in Thailand - not UK, UN, USA, anywhere.

Nothing any bunch of Expats say on a Forum is going to change that.

You would be far better off trying to adapt to the situation as it is here.

Andy knew what he was doing and did it anyway - the wrong way - on purpose.

He has achieved his 'martyrdom' as a 'glorious human rights activist'.

Spare me. I would now say 'go home Andy' - but he already has.

Maybe some posters should too -  seeing they dislike the Laws here so much.

 

[stephen tracy]

Just now, Russell17au said:

Your Grandparents Etc, were activists same as I was in the Vietnam war, like your family I fought for the good of the people and it was the governments that cancelled the commitment and left the South Vietnamese people to face the North on their own. This is exactly the same principle but it appears that you cannot understand it or you are just trying to start an argument. How do you think Andy knew about the people and the conditions? Did the company tell him? he had to have meetings with the people to find out what was happening. Are you really that thick not to know that he needed to meet with the workers to gain the information that he had.

Your personal convictions aside, there are many that would disagree that the Vietnam War (or as the Vietnamese call it, "The American War") was waged "for the good of the people".