Low carb is not always better (backed by studies)

[robblok]

Some people seem to think that low carb is the only and best thing there is. Studies claim otherwise, a longer study in the New England Journal of Medicine shows.

 

At first in the first half year low carb was far superior but when the trail ended after a year.. there was no significant difference between low carb and normal diets.

 

I think low carb certainly has its place but its not the only solution and as shown here not even always better. If there are other long term studies that claim otherwise please post them. The object here is to have a discussion about low carb based on facts.

 

I certainly believe we should remove processed carbs from our diet as much as possible but once that is done all options are open and people should just choose what suits them best. 

 

CONCLUSIONS

The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss (absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart disease. Adherence was poor and attrition was high in both groups. Longer and larger studies are required to determine the long-term safety and efficacy of low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diets.

 

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022207

 

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/2-years-of-low-carb-what-happens

[Justfine]

Those numbers are low. How fat were they to start with?

 

 

[poanoi]

4% is as rotten as it gets, too bad i got so horribly sick from DNP OD

otherwise i would never even think of diet

[FracturedRabbit]

I think the answer will vary depending on what you want to achieve. I have moved onto a ketogenic diet to hopefully minimise an increase in arterial plaque blocking an artery which was discovered a few months ago. I am not doing it to lose weight, I am already thin.

 

The answer may be different if the goal is weight reduction.

[Justfine]

"Adherence was poor "

 

There lies the problem. The data is iffy.

 

People need to try these things themselves with commitment and knowledge. Read the nutritional content of everything you eat and even on a low carb diet eat select fruit and veges.

[FracturedRabbit]

There are plenty of fruits and vegetables which are low carb, I eat a lot of salad and blueberries are a regular fixture. Eat well, sleep plenty, exercise some, and don't get stressed about it!

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Justfine said:

"Adherence was poor "

 

There lies the problem. The data is iffy.

 

People need to try these things themselves with commitment and knowledge. Read the nutritional content of everything you eat and even on a low carb diet eat select fruit and veges.

Adherence was poor on both diets.. That is just the way it goes with diets.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, FracturedRabbit said:

I think the answer will vary depending on what you want to achieve. I have moved onto a ketogenic diet to hopefully minimise an increase in arterial plaque blocking an artery which was discovered a few months ago. I am not doing it to lose weight, I am already thin.

 

The answer may be different if the goal is weight reduction.

Correct, the data did suggest that low carb had some health advantages, but it was not as magical as people believe it to be for weight-loss. I have no problems with low carb it certainly has its place but some people make it out to be the only solution. That is my problem with it. Be it low carb, intermittent fasting, just low caloric whatever it all works as long as you stick to the rules. 

 

For me low carb is no option as it means low energy during training and (not that it matters to me anymore) less muscle mass increase as insulin is also needed to gain muscle. I am certainly all for removing processed carbs from a diet. 

[Airalee]

I eat a low carb (keto) diet for the anti-inflammatory properties that it provides me.  The weight loss really wasn’t much of an issue as I was never more than a few kg over my optimal weight.  It has really helped my sinus congestion issues and fingernail psoriasis.  I especially notice the difference when I fall off the wagon for any length of time (a month or so) and the problems return.

 

here is a study showing the anti-inflammatory benefits of a low carb diet on type 2 diabetes patients.  I don’t have diabetes but have reaped the benefits nonetheless.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140508095415.htm

[InMyShadow]

I lost 20 kilos in a few months after I blew out due to new meds and the insane food cravings. Never went more than 20g carbs a day though. But have now put 10kg back on as super low carb is hard to maintain

[FracturedRabbit]

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

I eat a low carb (keto) diet for the anti-inflammatory properties that it provides me.  The weight loss really wasn’t much of an issue as I was never more than a few kg over my optimal weight.  It has really helped my sinus congestion issues and fingernail psoriasis.  I especially notice the difference when I fall off the wagon for any length of time (a month or so) and the problems return.

 

here is a study showing the anti-inflammatory benefits of a low carb diet on type 2 diabetes patients.  I don’t have diabetes but have reaped the benefits nonetheless.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140508095415.htm

Indeed, the keto groups are full of people who have returned their indicators back to normal levels and been able to stop taking diabetes medication.

[robblok]

10 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Indeed, the keto groups are full of people who have returned their indicators back to normal levels and been able to stop taking diabetes medication.

Of course, I mean if you don't eat carbs you don't need the medicine. You can't cure diabetics but you can keep it under control with low carb. That is how they did it before and still in some European countries. Not making people pop pills like in the US but change their diet.

 

But its not needed for healthy people who don't have that problem. Its perfectly safe to eat carbs depending on what kind and in what volume. Processed carbs in high volume will make you diabetic.. good carbs like oats in limited quantities while doing sports too.. are not a problem.  

[Airalee]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

Of course, I mean if you don't eat carbs you don't need the medicine. You can't cure diabetics but you can keep it under control with low carb. That is how they did it before and still in some European countries. Not making people pop pills like in the US but change their diet.

 

But its not needed for healthy people who don't have that problem. Its perfectly safe to eat carbs depending on what kind and in what volume. Processed carbs in high volume will make you diabetic.. good carbs like oats in limited quantities while doing sports too.. are not a problem.  

Rob,

 

You are one of the most sensible and balanced posters on this (and just about every other subject on TV).  I think that it’s the people who come in and call it a “fad” diet, are the ones that elicit the strong reactions from the low carb adherents.  I ate a pizza last night and it was instant congestion for me.  I really miss carbs and wish I didn’t have to eat such a restrictive diet, but I gotta do whatever I can in order to breathe through my nose.

 

[robblok]

Just now, Airalee said:

Rob,

 

You are one of the most sensible and balanced posters on this (and just about every other subject on TV).  I think that it’s the people who come in and call it a “fad” diet, are the ones that elicit the strong reactions from the low carb adherents.  I ate a pizza last night and it was instant congestion for me.  I really miss carbs and wish I didn’t have to eat such a restrictive diet, but I gotta do whatever I can in order to breathe through my nose.

 

I am of the opinion that low carb certainly has its benefits and works as a diet strategy. I just get a little bothered when people say its the only way to diet. I believe that we are all a bit different and should select something that works for us. That being said I think low carb works GREAT for people who are pre diabetic and really overweight as there is then often an insulin problem.

 

I think that once you reach a certain stage in weight loss and if you added exercise its possible change carb wise. For me I can't live without carbs for training. I need the fuel and positive benefits of carbs. 

 

Low carb is NOT a fad diet, but its not the only solution always.

 

I feel for you and your nose I got a nose problem too (since moving to Thailand). Most of the time its just one side that is open (that is good gives me enough air still but at times both sides are closed. I have gone real low carb too unfortunately for me that did not help me with my nose. I even had an operation where they burned away parts of the nose membrane to make the holes bigger. That worked for a while but it grew back. Part of the problem is a deviated septum I really hate it when my nose is closed while in bed. I can't sleep then.. so yes I understand your choice.

 

I am now in reasonably good shape but in 2011 i lost 25 kg, i kept it off all the time (until a few months ago I had sleeping problems that caused me to stop training and then my motivation for diet was gone and I gained weight). I lost the weight again and am now trying to get even leaner. Just vanity but hey I am almost a bodybuilder I need goals to chase or i get bored.

 

But because I am so into training and stuff i read loads of information about diets and research. There is just so much out there and many of it is conflicting. Before I thought after having read something.. YES this is it... but to be honest all these things help but never really amount to huge changes. Last thing I read is about meal order.. goes something like this that if you eat protein first you lose more fat. (probably something to do with insulin sensitivity). Anyway 2 groups ate the same just different order and group that ate protein first lost more fat (overall weight loss was the same so looks like the other group lost more muscle).  But it was a small study so more has to be researched. 

 

Anyway problem with all those studies is you can almost find something to prove anything. 

 

I like the debate here and i can get into it a bit too much at times.

[Airalee]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I feel for you and your nose I got a nose problem too (since moving to Thailand). Most of the time its just one side that is open (that is good gives me enough air still but at times both sides are closed. I have gone real low carb too unfortunately for me that did not help me with my nose. I even had an operation where they burned away parts of the nose membrane to make the holes bigger. That worked for a while but it grew back. Part of the problem is a deviated septum I really hate it when my nose is closed while in bed. I can't sleep then.. so yes I understand your choice.

Yeah...if you remember, we pm’d each other regarding our nasal congestion.  I ended up with “Empty Nose Syndrome” after my last turbinate reduction as all the ENT did was reduce my inferior turbinates but the congestion was up higher in my nose.  After trying every anti-inflammatory supplement I could find (unsuccessfully), the only thing that brought me relief was the ultra low carb diet.  I still cheat from time to time but definitely pay the price.  Still waiting for science to find a cure for the ENS.

 

I wonder if in addition to the anti-inflammatory properties of low carb eating, that the loss of water weight due to eating that way also helped to shrink things inside my nose.

[robblok]

Just now, Airalee said:

Yeah...if you remember, we pm’d each other regarding our nasal congestion.  I ended up with “Empty Nose Syndrome” after my last turbinate reduction as all the ENT did was reduce my inferior turbinates but the congestion was up higher in my nose.  After trying every anti-inflammatory supplement I could find (unsuccessfully), the only thing that brought me relief was the ultra low carb diet.  I still cheat from time to time but definitely pay the price.  Still waiting for science to find a cure for the ENS.

 

I wonder if in addition to the anti-inflammatory properties of low carb eating, that the loss of water weight due to eating that way also helped to shrink things inside my nose.

I would think (but am not sure) that water weight was always the weight of water that get lost once glycogen (energy out of carbs stored in the muscle) You burn that glycogen, and don't replenish it that is the water weight we are talking about. But I could be wrong here but at least that is what i know. 

 

Have you tried turmeric ? (probably have). Once something like this bothers you you really try it all. I never found a relation between low carb and my nose problems.. not sure if i would go low carb always (one hole open is still not that bad). I find it a bit strange that all carbs give you that problem.. (not saying its not true), could that mean its blood sugar related then ? I mean all carbs influence blood sugar. Other than that it would be strange for all carbs to give you the same inflammation (but you lived it you know best). If it is blood sugar related you could look into berberine (herb)

[Airalee]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

I would think (but am not sure) that water weight was always the weight of water that get lost once glycogen (energy out of carbs stored in the muscle) You burn that glycogen, and don't replenish it that is the water weight we are talking about. But I could be wrong here but at least that is what i know. 

 

Have you tried turmeric ? (probably have). Once something like this bothers you you really try it all. I never found a relation between low carb and my nose problems.. not sure if i would go low carb always (one hole open is still not that bad). I find it a bit strange that all carbs give you that problem.. (not saying its not true), could that mean its blood sugar related then ? I mean all carbs influence blood sugar. Other than that it would be strange for all carbs to give you the same inflammation (but you lived it you know best). If it is blood sugar related you could look into berberine (herb)

Oh yeah.  I still take a healthy dose of turmeric daily.  Also bromelain, apple cider vinegar, fresh ginger etc.  I have had all the blood tests and everything comes back perfect.  In fact, the doctor says that he rarely sees a 49 year old with such good results.  I just think that speaks to the general ill health of most Americans.

[Justfine]

Im trying turmeric and krill oil for joint relief. Cant tell any difference.

[LongTimeLurker]

19 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

I lost 20 kilos in a few months after I blew out due to new meds and the insane food cravings. Never went more than 20g carbs a day though. But have now put 10kg back on as super low carb is hard to maintain

I've been on a low carb diet since December 2015, not hard to maintain at all, don't even think about it now.

 

Last Christmas though I deliberately didn't maintain it while on holiday for 3 weeks and put on 4kgs which has since finally come off.

[Airalee]

54 minutes ago, Justfine said:

Im trying turmeric and krill oil for joint relief. Cant tell any difference.

My 90 year old father uses Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM for joint relief.  1500mg in the morning and 3000mg in the evening.  He thinks it helps although age is taking its toll.

[Justfine]

28 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I've been on a low carb diet since December 2015, not hard to maintain at all, don't even think about it now.

 

Last Christmas though I deliberately didn't maintain it while on holiday for 3 weeks and put on 4kgs which has since finally come off.

Thats good. I've been low carb since dec 17. After 2 months just seems normal to not eat bread, rice etc. Dont miss junk food either.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Justfine said:

Im trying turmeric and krill oil for joint relief. Cant tell any difference.

I tried so many supplements and even drugs its hard to tell difference. I take turmeric and fish oil, and some other supplements that might or might not work (calcium / magnesium / potassium / green tea extract / cafeine ) not directly for weight loss or anything but I sweat like crazy on my workouts and if I don't supplement i cramp up.

 

I also drink quite a bit of protein from shakes, but only now because I keep my caloric intake low and want proteins to be at around 1 1/2 gram per kg of body weight (most times im a little below that). But can't say that I ever noticed gaining more muscle or hanging on to more muscle because of protein. I think the differences are too small to notice.

 

I tried quite a few other stuff too some stuff I would not advise others and won't mention here. But there are things that do work. For instance yohimbine HCL works (if used correctly with fasted cardio if your already relatively slim). 

 

 

 

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, Justfine said:

Thats good. I've been low carb since dec 17. After 2 months just seems normal to not eat bread, rice etc. Dont miss junk food either.

I notice that too that once your on a good food program (low carb or otherwise) you don't mis junk food as much as before. I have read it has something to do with gut bacteria. Once you starved the bad ones (by not eating crap food) the good ones replace them. Of course drinking stuff like kefir and other pro biotics can help.

 

When i fell of the wagon and started eating bad foods and not caring anymore it snowballed.. the more i ate the more I wanted. I am the guy that (still can) can easily eat two pizza's in a sitting.  But for me its more then just appetite for junk food.. if training goes well and diet goes well and i see results its easier to stick with it (when there are no results things change)

[robblok]

25 minutes ago, Airalee said:

My 90 year old father uses Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM for joint relief.  1500mg in the morning and 3000mg in the evening.  He thinks it helps although age is taking its toll.

I am 100% convinced some supplements if taken correctly can help in certain situations. But in general I don't notice much from the stuff I take. 

[Taggart]

What surprises me is that people can't imagine you can lose weight or maintain normal weight on what's essentially a high carb diet.  I mean this has been know for decades, I don't need a recent study to know that.  The low carb crowd have in some way created this myth that there's is the only way in order to lose weight and at the same time get healthy.  I sometimes wonder how much money under the table their gurus are getting from big food by flogging their ideas to the disciples. 

[FracturedRabbit]

I don't think there are any "big food" companies invested in promoting a low carb diet. Walk around any supermarket and at least 80% of what is on display will be out of bounds if you are trying to restrict carbs. 

[Justfine]

Just now, FracturedRabbit said:

I don't think there are any "big food" companies invested in promoting a low carb diet. Walk around any supermarket and at least 80% of what is on display will be out of bounds if you are trying to restrict carbs. 

More margin in high carbs. Coke costs like a few cents to make with a massive mark up. Chips would be similar.

 

Low carb stuff has a higher cost base. Mark ups would be a lot less.

 

 

[BangnaBound]

This is a poorly designed study from 2003 that has been given a somewhat misleading context.  The sample is too small, and the attrition rates and standard deviations are too large to draw any real conclusions.  Also, it is misleading in the sense that some of the language would make you think they are comparing the efficacy of dieting protocols, when in fact they are comparing the efficacy of dieting advice.  And even as a comparison of dieting advice, their study design leaves a lot questions.  The only conclusion that can be reached is that giving obese people periodic diet counseling has low compliance at a 12-month time frame.

 

The same journal in the same month had a study with the opposite conclusion.  Although this study is careful not to generalize results beyond the sample.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022637

 

Having said that, I think it is always good to question things.  The study in OP is specifically about the Atkin’s diet, which is far from perfect.  This is a good discussion, but this particular study does not have anything so say about the longer-term effects of low-carb diets.

 

Robblok, I’m a big fan of your posts, they helped me a lot in my quest for better health. Thanks!

[Taggart]

30% calories from fat is not a low fat diet.

 

10% or less.    Perhaps 10% to 20% at most.

[jak2002003]

On ‎07‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 5:54 PM, FracturedRabbit said:

There are plenty of fruits and vegetables which are low carb, I eat a lot of salad and blueberries are a regular fixture. Eat well, sleep plenty, exercise some, and don't get stressed about it!

You are correct.  But here is my little rant....

 

But people should not eat / drink citrus fruits, like oranges and grapefruits... because they give you skin cancer!  

 

Also the sugar in all fruit is bad for surges in insulin and can lead to becoming a diabetic.  Don't forget the seeds of apples and other fruits are poisonous and have arsenic in them too.. so don't put the entire fruit into the juice machine!

 

Also the pesticides and herbicides found incorporated into the flesh and skin of fruit and vegetables will give you cancer... you can wash some off.. but don't use chlorinated tap water.. must be filtered.. and not in plastic bottles as that makes you infertile and give you cancer too.

 

Better stick to and whole grain sandwich... or sorry, forget WHEAT is poisonous.. and too much gluten.   Soy is better then... ups.. no... that is not digestible, and genetically modified, and causes hormone imbalances in people.  Normal milk from a cow... OMG NO... so much wrong with that one.  Meat... ah... too much fat, cholesterol to give you a heart attack, hormones, saturated fats, antibiotics, etc etc. 

 

Safe with healthy sea fish.. ups, now they are radioactive, contain toxic heavy metals and other chemicals, give you brain parasites.

 

I know.. here is an idea.  Eat a balanced diet of a wide variety and foods and you can't go wrong.  If you are getting too heavy, just cut down on the food volume.  EASY.

 

PS when people are out exercising, they must use sun screen to protect from UV radiation and skin caner... but don't use sunscreen because that give you skin cancer.  

 

Really... just about anything is bad for us if we are to believe the experts, and healthy diet book writers.  Even the blue light from this computer stand by light is going to disrupt my sleep patterns and affect my hormones... maybe leading to depression.