Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[Morch]

54 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Jews are people who follow the religion of Judaism.
Zionism is a hateful political ideology that promotes the religionist supremacy of Jews within Palestine. I despise all forms of discrimination.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists. The nutjob Pastor Hagee mentioned above is a Christian Zionist.

 

I believe that the way the state of Israel was established at the expense of dispossessing the indigenous Palestinian population was a mistake.

 

I have no objection to Israel being a haven for genuinely persecuted Jews. Most of world Jewry (and especially younger American Jews) have voted with their feet and do not want to be a part of the apartheid state that Israel has become, because it seems to be the Israelis who are now doing the persecuting against the Palestinians in the OP. History is full of irony.

 

Zionism may be described as "hateful" by yourself and others, it does not make it fact nor even a generally accepted point of view. There are plenty of Zionists which are not religious and are in favor of peace. That you attempt the wholesale wide-brush formulations is irrelevant and misleading.

 

I don't think you're an authority on interpreting Jewish attitudes toward Israel, and I seriously doubt most Jews worldwide are not interested in Israel's existence as a Jewish state. 

 

[dexterm]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are aware that Hamas is not quite supportive of the two-state solution thing, right? This isn't something one side is all for and the other side opposes.

Your usual fence sitting language "not quite supportive" of course disingenuously belies the fact that Hamas have agreed to recognize (not Jewish)  Israel within the 67 borders. More to the point when is Israel willing to recognize a Palestinian state.

[Morch]

38 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

So more than 2,800 people were shooting what? at the Isreali military who replied by using excessive force and killing protestors using snipers. I didn't see any casualty reports from the Israeli side on the number of dead and wounded.

 

I do see a pariah country defending stolen land, building illegal settlements and crying to the world how hard done by they are and that their only friends are the USA.

 

Take a good look at a map of the area and at the size of Isreal with a population of around 8.5 million people and then look at the size of the Gaza Strip and a Palestinian population of around 2 million. Yet Isreal wants more and more land and more and more people.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

 

Look at the video from 1:00 in at listen to Netanyahu speaking.

 

Some of the those shot were shooting at the IDF troops or trying to sabotage the fence. Definitely not all. Not quite following the mindset of expecting casualties on the Israeli side as well, but eh. As for excessive force - that's a valid point. On the other hand, I'm yet to see a serious account on how protests of such intensity and scope are to be handled. Especially considering the consequences for things getting worse if the masses of protestors manage to cross over.

 

Israel is a pariah country only in the minds of some posters. In the real world, it is neither shunned nor sanctioned. The "land theft" tag does not apply to the Gaza Strip, and the same goes for illegal settlements. I'm not aware that there's much popular support in Israel for the notion of retaking the Gaza Strip, so again, the "more land" bit is off mark in this case.

 

Netanyahu's comment relates to the Embassy thing.

 

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

Nonsense account of the Zionist mythology debunked many times on this form.

 

Debunked - just because you might have a different opinion is not debunking. If you have facts present them. Making reference to previous expressed opinion won't cut the mustard either.

[Chomper Higgot]

48 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yawn.

 

Some of those killed during the protests (yesterday and before that) were carrying out various actions against IDF troops or attempting to sabotage the fence. There were posts documenting such with pictures, clips and even Hamas statements. Pretending otherwise do not lend your repeated "requests" for "evidence" much credibility.

So you make statements and when asked if you have verifiable evidence to back up what you’ve said you respond with more unverified statements and attack the credibility of my simple request for you to provide evidence of the claims you make.

 

Conclusion, you’re making stuff up in defence of Israeli forces killing people.

 

 

 

[puipuitom]

In 1971 I was as backpacker in Israel and the West Bank: could travel to everywhere, sleep in my little tent, no problem. Went with Israelis to an Arab wedding and with Arabs to an Israeli wedding. In 1984 I visited several factories: many Arabs working in Israel, of in factories at the West bank. Prosperity for all. But some hardliners from Hamas etc wanted to see Israeli blood and corpses, so a terrorist war started, for over 30 years now. The Arab workers were no longer allowed to enter Israel, and are replaced by Philippino’s, Vietnamese and even Thai.

Who is to blame as every Israeli soldier knows, these guys on the other side of the fence have only one wish: kill YOU and your relatives.

 

What the Thais would expect form THEIR military to do ? Have a cup of coffee and pray ? ?

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Some of the those shot were shooting at the IDF troops or trying to sabotage the fence. Definitely not all. Not quite following the mindset of expecting casualties on the Israeli side as well, but eh. As for excessive force - that's a valid point. On the other hand, I'm yet to see a serious account on how protests of such intensity and scope are to be handled. Especially considering the consequences for things getting worse if the masses of protestors manage to cross over.

 

Israel is a pariah country only in the minds of some posters. In the real world, it is neither shunned nor sanctioned. The "land theft" tag does not apply to the Gaza Strip, and the same goes for illegal settlements. I'm not aware that there's much popular support in Israel for the notion of retaking the Gaza Strip, so again, the "more land" bit is off mark in this case.

 

Netanyahu's comment relates to the Embassy thing.

 

You yourself have in the past advocated mass peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians against illegal occupation. If 40,000 Palestinians walked towards the fence which divides them from their former homes, it would be very easy for the IDF to turn a peaceful demonstration violent. That's what has been happening for the last weeks of demonstrations.

[dexterm]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Debunked - just because you might have a different opinion is not debunking. If you have facts present them. Making reference to previous expressed opinion won't cut the mustard either.

Not falling for the Zionist playbook deflection game today. 

Try  http://www.palestineremembered.com/ if you really want to learn more.

Edited May 15, 2018 by dexterm

[puipuitom]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Nonsense account of the Zionist mythology debunked many times on this forum.

` Get some history books, or search at Internet.

 

The Arabs lost a war ( 5 even) , and just like the Greeks and Turks, Germans, Poles, Ukraines and many others in Eastern Europe, Pakistani and Indians, Chinese... lost their lands.

[Kieran00001]

6 hours ago, jimmyyy said:

outrage and sorrow at the killing of Palestinian civilians

 

The ones who were shooting at Israelis, those civilians, by civilians you mean hamas....

 

No, the ones who were just there, the children, the disabled, like the ones in the article you have implied that you have read, did you not bother to read it and just assumed that the Israeli's were killing people who were shooting at them rather than the innocents that they have killed yet again?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The commentary used by Hamas leaders often mixes the political and the religious, especially when referring to matters related to Jerusalem. The same, if to a lesser extent, applies for the PA leadership.

As do the Zionists nes pas?!

[dexterm]

6 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

` Get some history books, or search at Internet.

 

The Arabs lost a war ( 5 even) , and just like the Greeks and Turks, Germans, Poles, Ukraines and many others in Eastern Europe, Pakistani and Indians, Chinese... lost their lands.

In the 21st century you can't conquer lands, annex them, illegally occupy 4.5 million dispossessed people then shoot them if they want to return to their homes. Most of us nowadays live in more enlightened times under international law.

 

Would love to debate Zionist mythology but in a more appropriate thread perhaps.

 

Suggest you view "the Nakba" documenatries where eye witnesses from both sides are interviewed... available on youtube if you are interested in history.

Edited May 15, 2018 by dexterm

[ezzra]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Not falling for the Zionist playbook deflection game today. 

Try  http://www.palestineremembered.com/ if you really want to learn more.

Parroting Zionism, Zionism, again and again make one sound worse than the BDS and the white supremacist, no matter what some pathetics posters here will call Israel all sorts of derogatory names, the truth of the facts remain, no Palestinians will cross that barrier alive, not now not later, there will not be a ' return to homes' march, only a march to their graves and more graevs.....

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Are you suggesting that before the 15th century there was a country called Palestine in which a people called Palestinians lived and were ruled by fellow Palestinians? And that this country and it's people were a distinct country apart from other Arab nations and tribes?

If he wasn’t... he could.

 

the famous five kings of Palestine, aligned themselves with the cannonites, but were conquered by Joshua, along with the cannonites, making the southern Levant, a Jewish state

 

meanwhile, back to the present... or rather, modern history.... the ignorance of western countries and their religious views, acting in what they saw as good faith, unwisely decided on partition lines over a hotly contested part of the planet, and set that down as law, when arguably, it was not their right to do so.(the UN gave themselves the right to arbitrate... much like any despot would do)

 

isreal has since defended itself, gaining strategic lands, to further protect its people, (annexation of the golans is a prime example of geographically strategic annexation to defend isreal, which lies at the base of the golans) which is nothing more than common sense, (on their part) which was sadly lacking in the origional 1947 (?) partition, by the allies who wanted a quick fix to the Jewish problem, without due consideration of future issues between opposing religions.

 

their laxity and naivety has born fruit.

 

that said.... trumps decision to move the US embassy, during a period of enhanced turmoil, is akin to pouring fuel on a fire (which yes...he did not start) and a mark of his ability , or rather, lack thereof, to act as a statesman.

[Jingthing]

As do the Zionists nes pas?!

What's your point? Of course. Although the roots of historical Zionism are more political than religious certainly there are factions of Zionism that are overtly religious. In many ways the Z word is no longer relevant anyway. The point of Zionism was the establishment of a national homeland for the Jewish people. That happened. So what it means now is the continued existence of the state of Israel. You can be a leftist Zionist or a far right Zionist but all would be unified in support of the existence and defense of Israel.

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[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Resistance is not the same as aggressive hostile attacks.  The Israeli territory on the other side of the Gaza border is not occupied land. The arabs are attacking Israel.  Gaza residents are for the most part descendants of the  arbs who lived there during Egyptian rule. They didn't flee Israel. The people you  claim lost their lands are primarily residents of Lebanon and Jordan, countries which will not give them citizenship. 

The arabs who are dying at the Israel border have decided that  their future in paradise is of more value than life here on earth. Who are you to deny them their  wish? They are attacking Israel and seek to gain entry to cause death and destruction. Israel has the moral and legal right to repel violent attackers.

 

It's wonderful that you have such empathy for the arabs who left on the  advice of the attacking arab armies who promised that Israel would be wiped out. Where is your advocacy on behalf of the nearly 1 million arabs of the jewish faith forced out of their homes and who had their lands, property and assets confiscated? Where are your tears for jews slaughtered in the riots of baghdad, of Cairo, of Algiers, of Tunis of Tehran, etc?  Your double standard is rich.

 

BTW your hyperbole as to these poor people holding keys for their homes is absolute BS. Rather than point out the fallacy of the claim, I will direct you to basic math. 1948-2018  is a span of 70 years.   male life expectancy for Gaza residents is 72.5 years. (despite the violence, lifestyle related mortality is the leading cause of death particularly  heavy tobacco use, heart disease, obesity). Your claim would require  that these people  would have  taken possession of their real estate  at an average  age of 2.5 years.

 

Adn BTW, did you know that Israeli Arabs have the highest life expectancy among 21 Islamic or Arab countries, even higher than that of wealthy Gulf States, such as Qatar and Bahrain.  And guess what, the life expectancy of arab males in the contested areas of Israel, the lands you call occupied, is 3+ years higher than in Gaza.  Gosh darn, that occupying hardship sure adds years to their lives.

You said:

 

”The arabs who are dying at the Israel border have decided that  their future in paradise is of more value than life here on earth.”

 

This is arguably the most overtly offensive, certainly the most egregiously callous statement I’ve read on TVF.

 

The person made that choice for them is the person who killed them.

 

Your callous assumption about these dead people, is very clearly based on a bigoted line of thought:

 

They’re Palestinians/Arabs, they must be Muslims, the Koran has got something in it about dying a marter and being sent straight to paradise ergo these people wanted to die more than they wanted to live.

 

Why don’t you take the next step and explain to us how the Israelis were doing them a favour?!

 

Its seldom I wish I were having these discussions close up and personal, but this is one occasion I wish I were.

 

You sir need to have a word with yourself.

[metisdead]

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[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What's your point? Of course. Although the roots of historical Zionism are more political than religious certainly there are factions of Zionism that are overtly religious. In many ways the Z word is no longer relevant anyway. The point of Zionism was the establishment of a national homeland for the Jewish people. That happened. So what it means now is the continued existence of the state of Israel. You can be a leftist Zionist or a far right Zionist but all would be unified in support of the existence and defense of Israel.

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My point is, I’m calling out a double standard.

 

I’m sorry you have a problem with me doing so.

[ELVIS123456]

Great to see many posters quoting facts about the falsehood that is the State of Palestine and the true nature of the 'Palestinian' Muslims that have taken over (Hamas etc.).

 

Palestine:  The region comprises most of the territory claimed for the biblical regions known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל‎ Eretz-Yisra'el), the Holy Land or Promised Land. Historically, it has been known as the southern portion of wider regional designations such as Canaan, Syria, ash-Sham, and the Levant.  Wikipeadia.

 

The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn, Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים‬) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني‎, al-'arabi il-filastini), are an ethnonational group[30][31][32][33][34][35][36] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab. Wikipeadia.

 

Palestine was a name used by the Romans to describe the Arab Region.  It has more recently been used by fanatical Muslims to claim parts of Israel for their own State - which is a fundamental lie. The Palestinians (Hamas) only want one thing - the destruction and removal of all Jews.  But the fact is that Israel has taken back what was taken from them by the Muslim Arabs a long time ago.  History proves that Jews and Ararbs lioved together in peace for a long long time.  It was only after the rise of Islam that the Jews in Arabia (Palestine) were persecuted and killed and their land stolen.  Israel is what the UN did to resolve the situation post WW2 - fanatical Muslims have refused to accept it.  The relocation of the US Embassy to Jerusalim by Trump is just (yet another) exscuse for fanatical Muslims to be violent (in their cause to destroy Israel).

 

In 1995 a resolution was passed by US Congress recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel and declaring that the US Embassy should be moved there too. Every POTUS since then has said they would do it if elected, but then declined to sign it off on the basis of 'reconciliation' and/or on the basis of 'peace talks'. For over 20 years the Palestinians/Hamas/Syria/Jordan etc. have been delaying and peace has not happened. The Palestinians (Jordanians) still refuse to accept Israel, and it is still their official position to abolish it. 

 

Trump is doing to this subject exactly the same as he is doing to all others - he is ignoring the libtard/UN/globalist bulldust and is making pragmatic decisions based on the best interests of USA, and its Allies. In due course he will also move the US Embassy to Jerusalem - which is the 'official' Capital of Israel. And he will continue to ignore the loony left-wing protests about Armageddon and 'the end of Peace' protests. Making Jerusalem the capital of Israel just reflects reality. 

 

Jerusalem was a Jewish/Hebrew settlement/town thousands of years before the Islamic faith even began in the 7th century AD. King David conquered Jerusalem 1000 years before Christ was born (2018 years ago). Jerusalem has been won and lost many times over the course of history. The Crusades in about 1100 AD were in-part about taking Jerusalem back from the Muslims, when the Muslim ruler at that time had ordered all non-Muslim churches to be destroyed. Then about 100 years later the Muslims conquered the City (Saladin) and then the Crusaders again recaptured and lost it to Muslims over the following decades. Then in 1250 the Muslims captured it and tore down the walls and destroyed much of it, and it went into decline. In the 1500s it was captured by the Ottoman Empire and when Suleyman became leader, he started rebuilding the City. The City was last conquered by the British after WW1. 

During all that time people of the Hebrew/Jewish faith and many other religions, including Christians and later Muslims, lived in the City, with varying degrees of conflict and peace over the many many years the City existed.

 

Following WW2 the idiots in the UN declared that Jerusalem would be split into two Cities - East as Muslim and West as Jewish as part of the newly declared State of Israel. As usual the UN screwed it all up and violence escalated between the two groups.  The UN idiots decided to setup Jerusalem as a partial Jewish City surrounded by Muslim States - with a road going to the new Jewish State they had created. Jordan (Palestinians) took over the 'old city (western part) ransacked the ancient synagogues, libraries and and centers of Jewish religious study. 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed and those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The Jordanians (Palestinians) tore up Jewish cemeteries and used headstones to pave their roads. Israel made appeals to the UN and the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response - only lots of appeasement attempts. 

 

Eventually Israel had enough and in the 6 day war they recaptured all of Jerusalem and many parts of Jordan and Syria where the Palestinians lived (some of which they gave back later). Israel has refused to 'give back' parts of Jordan and Syria that is has conquered, on the basis that they need to control the Palestinians (they know what they are). Palestinians are a violent group of Jordanians - they have never had their own Country/State. They are the radical Islamists that defaced and destroyed Jerusalem, and they have for a long time been considered extremist Muslims. 

 

Some people say Israel stole lands belonging to the Muslims in Jordan/Syria (including East Jerusalem), but others say they took back what was originally theirs. Either way - like it or not - Jerusalem now 'belongs' to Israel - a fact of history. Look at the ancient maps and images - Jews existed ands lived there before the Muslim faith was even started. Palestinians are violent Muslims that openly hate all Jews and want to destroy Israel.

 

The image below shows the ancient Kingdoms of the middle East in the 9th Century before Christ. Note that the Kingdom of Judah has as its capital Jerusalem, and that the Kingdom of Israel is still a separate Kingdom - which was later combined into the one Kingdom/Religion over the following centuries. There is no Palestine (and never was) and there is no Jordan (yet) and there is no Syria (yet). 

 

 

Jerusalem is a very ancient City that has its origins 3500 years before Christ was born - it has been the capital for Jews for thousands of years.  In all the time that has elapsed since then, by any reasonable measure, the Hebrew/Jewish people have a far greater right to claim it is their City, than any other peoples/religion. 
 

[wabothai]

There is a need for some serious stepping in by the UN. 

Trump is in the way and needs to be removed.

[Jingthing]

My point is, I’m calling out a double standard.

 

I’m sorry you have a problem with me doing so.

Nope. The post you were replying to made no assertion whatsoever on whether religion was part of Zionism or not! It was a reply to another post specifically about Hamas. Can your personal attacks please. I have no problem with honest in context rebuttals. There was no double standard expressed. Instead you made that up.

 

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[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nope. The post you were replying to made no assertion whatsoever on whether religion was part of Zionism or not! It was a reply to another post specifically about Hamas. Can your personal attacks please. I have no problem with honest in context rebuttals. There was no double standard expressed. Instead you made that up.

 

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You are not getting away with that.

 

Two sides to the conflict Israel and The Palestinians.

 

The post I called out has a double standard, it attributed religious motives to parties on the Palestinian side and omitted the same on the Israeli side.

 

Again forgive me if you have trouble with fairness in these matters.

[Jingthing]

You are not getting away with that.
 
Two sides to the conflict Israel and The Palestinians.
 
The post I called out has a double standard, it attributed religious motives to parties on the Palestinian side and omitted the same on the Israeli side.
 
Again forgive me if you have trouble with fairness in these matters.

Nope. The post was in the context of a discussion about Hamas. Nobody is denying the influence of religion on Israeli government policies although Israel is not a theocracy. Religion has a strong influence in many countries. Thailand and the USA for example. Again I think you're being very disingenuous. For there to be a double standard you would have had to replying to a post that mentioned there was no religious influence on the Israeli side. This wasn't that. You have a right not to accept my POV sure but I have a right to detect fake issues when I see them and call them out.

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[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nope. The post was in the context of a discussion about Hamas. Nobody is denying the influence of religion on Israeli government policies although Israel is not a theocracy. Religion has a strong influence in many countries. Thailand and the USA for example. Again I think you're being very disingenuous. For there to be a double standard you would have had to replying to a post that mentioned there was no religious influence on the Israeli side. This wasn't that. You have a right not to accept my POV sure but I have a right to detect fake issues when I see them and call them out.

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The context is Israeli Armed Forces have killed dozens of Palestinian protestors.

 

I am not being disingenuous.

 

The case is being made that the Palestinians are driven by religion In the specific post I referred to religious motives are attributed to Palestinians because Hamas and at the PA occasionally call up religion.

 

Well heck so do Zionist but as yourself demonstrate in this response ‘let’s have no suggestion at all that Israel acts on the basis of religion’

 

I say, let’s not have a double standard.

 

Attributing Palestinian actions to religion undermines the legitimacy of their claims by placing their arguments in belief, not law, not international law, not human right.

 

It also opens the door to the kind of obscene arguments put forward by geriatrickid: he stated here on TVF (I paraphrase) ‘the Palestinians want to die and go to paradise more than they want to live’.

 

Let’s have less double standards and end to dehumanizing the Palestinians, and certainly an end to the obscene views we’ve had on TVF today.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Jingthing]

Again I do think you were being disingenuous and I didn't appreciate your personal insults either.

 

I certainly agree with you that Palestinian people are people. Obviously.

 

Tragically it is obvious that many young Gazans are so miserable that they are acting in a suicidal manner. They know the IDF will shoot at the border, they don't have guns themselves, so do the math. Many are ready to die with no hope of doing damage to their enemy except for PR wins which they are getting. Yes that is suicide.

 

My personal position is that the embassy should not have been moved and the IDF needs to work harder to avoid lethal responses but I also support their right to defend their borders from clearly hostile invasion.

 

Calling the border protests peaceful as some have here is a total lie.

 

It is true the forces are totally unequal and that the border invasions have zero chance of accomplishing any kind military victory.

 

 

Surely there are more sensible venues for peaceful protest?

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[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Again I do think you were being disingenuous and I didn't appreciate your personal insults either.

I certainly agree with you that Palestinian people are people. Obviously.

My personal position is that the embassy should not have been moved and the IDF needs to work harder to avoid lethal responses but I also support their right to defend their borders from clearly hostile invasion.

Calling the border protests peaceful is a total lie.

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1.Agree the Embassy should never have been moved -it’s relication was a deliberate provocation.

 

2.I do not believe the international community should leave the IDF to police it’s own use of force when that force is used beyond the Israili border.

 

3. There was no invasion, no Palestinians crosssd the border - The killings took place in Gaza.

 

4. I never once called the protests peaceful. 

If another nation invaded my home country, I’d expect the response to be violent and I’d think poorly of myself if I did not take part.

 

[nobodysfriend]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

On the other hand, I'm yet to see a serious account on how protests of such intensity and scope are to be handled.

For example by using rubber bullets instead of live ammunition ... ?

[notmyself]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

Palestinians have the right to resist illegal occupation. Their lands have been stolen by European colonists. They want their land back, and the right to return to the homes for which many of them still hold the keys.

 

Yep.

[i claudius]

Palestinians have the right to resist illegal occupation. Their lands have been stolen by European colonists. They want their land back, and the right to return to the homes for which many of them still hold the keys.

My father came from Poland and fought for Britain in the war.The Russians took his parents home and business the house is still there but he was never allowed back to reclaim it do you agree he should have been given it back? And the money the Swiss banks kept that his parents deposited also the sawmill that his familly owned. Its the way of the world i am afraid.they have to live with it.they fought Israel and lost. How about getting off their backsides and building a better land .just like Israel has?

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[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

...

3. There was no invasion, no Palestinians crosssd the border - The killings took place in Gaza.

 

Attempted invasion. You knew what I meant. You're just splitting hairs.

Suppose the IDF just let tens of thousands of angry Gazans through the holes they were trying to cut in the fences. Do you imagine they would be seeking out the nearest cafe for a latte? Come on, now, this was a mob of very hostile "protesters" burning tires to make smoke to camouflage and actively trying to open the border. Close enough to an invasion for government work. A serious threat? No. So as I said before basically a suicide mission with nothing to gain but PR because of all the dead on their own side. Mission accomplished!

Was the international PR to continue to demonize Israel worth it?

I don't think so but I respect that so many have sacrificed their lives basically with only that to gain. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Jingthing