Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers

[rexall]

I believe that a degree is the requirement to teach English, but does this apply to teaching other subjects?

This is not an uncommon criterion for teachers of all subjects, around the world.

I the UK many teachers do not have degrees

Ah - if only you knew. ALL teachers in the UK MUST have a degree in teaching - they either attend a teachers training college where they gain not only their degree but also vast experience in teaching technigues or must do a further 2 years doing a teachers degree once they have finished a normal degree at a university.

My ex spent 5 years at university / college to gain her teachers quilifications - not the 10 weeks it takes with TEFL

Why would anyone not allow the children of this country the same rights to quality education that they would want for their own children in other countries, or that we ourselves enjoyed?

I have met teachers working in schools who are TEFL trained, whose second or sometimes third language is English and I have not been able to understand what they were saying when speaking to me in English, and I am naive English born.

Yes the quality of teaching needs to be improved and in line with this the level of pay - Fully qualified teachers will only be able to get the level of salary they rightly deserve when there is a shortage of teachers available - and this will only be highlighted when they crack down on poorly trained, bad english speaking stop gaps.

The future of a Nation rests in its children and this generation has a duty to the next to ensure it gets the best possible eduction from the best trained people.

A quote to remember - we do not own the Earth, we only borrow it from future Generations

Phuketdiver

Wed 31 Jan 07, 12:05 p.m.

There is a "terminology gap" here. In the U.S., a "diploma" only ever applies to your garden variety high school diploma. . On the other hand, in the UK, it can refer to a rather high certification, although not necessarily. For example the DELTA (Diploma in Engarishe Language Teaching(?) from Cambridge is a post-graduate qualification somewhere between a bachelors and a masters. Roughly 50% of a masters, I think. It's a good system.

Aloha,

Rex

[Ozziepaul]

Ever since I arrived here on my non o visas I've been pestered to go and teach at the local schools here in La Un, Ranong. Despite pleas of I'm not a teacher, and even a blunt no. It was you speak English, you do it. Of late the cetang has finally dropped, and all I get now is occaisionally kids asking for help with homework. The so called Thai English teachers in the 4 schools that approached me, can not hold a conversation in the language the are supposedly teaching. So if a native English teacher wishes to teach if approached by the local primary schools. What's the problem. Just get the police to do a check with the police in his/her native country. At least the kids would get an ear for how the language is used, and not just be limited to "Hello" and "What is your name?", the dissolving into a fit of giggles.

I AGREE..!!

In Australia, at least in Queensland, if you have ANYTHING to do with kids, you need a 'green card' (I think that's what it's referred to). It means you have been comprehensively checked out by the police etc. Any breach and your forfeit the card for EVER and kiss you butt goodbye. Appart from any charges that may be laid, depending on the severity of the breach.

When I came to Thailand to be with my partner and save constant trips back and forth, the easiest way, in terms of Visa's was to apply to be a teacher. My level of teritary education is Diploma level. The course I did was actually the same as another uni which accredited it as a degree. Bad luck I suppose that I didn't attend that uni in Perth. I was in Darwin.

The point is, when I applied, I offered everything you could think of, including the preparedness to provide a background (Police and AFP-Australian Federal Police) Check.

The response was basically....."are you crazy, this is Thailand, they don't need all that crap".

I was honestly shocked and cannot wait for the day that the authorities demand that this be an integral part of being issued with a Teachers licence and work permit.

As to having an actual degree, well I have to concur with what some have already said. I know soooo many people with degrees that couldn't even teach a tick to suck the blood out of a dog, it's not funny.

A teritary qualification for sure, with a mandatory Governement accredited TEFL course, in the least.

That's my two satangs worth.

Cheers 'n beers.

Ozziepaul.

[pharmerphil]

Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?

Tony you must be winding us up but if you are a teacher and your message is kosher then you are living proof that there is a serious requirement for qualifications to be checked.

Edited January 31, 2007 by pharmerphil

[tijnebijn]

For sure,that I do understand that undesired teachers,like peadophiles ,who regulary teach and practice their unpleasant habit,are overly checked or even deported.For the university reguirements ,it's obvious rediculous.In my own homecountry you do not need this,unless you want to teach on university level.And that is not the kind of University's we talk about here.....they should make thai teachers teach better,so thay will not need farang unqualified teachers,for farang it is just a upportunity to stay abroad.For thai it should show them how uncompetitive thay are for needing them.Just strange situation.

[Momo8]

So far in this fascinating discussion I have come to the conclusion that disreputable institutions employ teachers of questionable background to the detriment of their students.Before I was offered a contract to teach at an international school here I had my background checked out with a microscope.Police checks from Australia and China,5 (I kid you not) referees were contacted,I had to provide a two page statement on my 'educational philosophy', certified copies of all my degrees,3 written references,copy of passport etc.All this to teach five year olds. After three interrogations I mean interviews, I finally got the job but boy,it would have been easier to run for president!

ALL international schools run thorough background checks and they pay according to what degrees you have obtained + years of experience.

I also have good friends teaching ESL with and without degrees.Some are great teachers (here and in Shanghai where I was formerly based) some do it for the party lifestyle they want to support and don't care if it is 4am and they are still in a bar with a class in the morning.Then there are the great teachers who do it for the love of the kids.

In Shanghai years ago the government also had a major crackdown on language schools employing teachers without or with fake degrees.These schools got around this hurdle by employing most of their teachers on a part time basis so they didn't have to organize visas/ work permits and although illegal many teachers worked without the necessary documents or simply went to HK paid $HK500 and got a six month 'business visa'.Upside of working part time on the wrong visa is that you don't pay tax...wonder if this will happen in Thailand.In every system there are flaws, ideally a police check should be mandatory for anyone planning on working/living in Thailand for a lengthy period of time as to having a degree that's the law!

[Canadianvisitor]

They should just shoot pedo.... anythings, they would never do it again.

In Canada there are English as a Second Languages courses available

at the Community College Level, which is one step from University.

A very high level of education though.

There are also fly by night "courses" you can take that offer a "database"

of opportuniyies around the globe for aspiring "educators".

I firmly believe the time is getting ripe for some rules in this area

no doubt, BUT, a university education is approximately $20k US per annum.

This will not lead to any qualified personell ever approaching the work

for more than a couple of months, and then there will be a mega transient,

largely untraceable group on the immigration roster.

[dviol]

Hey Guys,

I'm not familiar with all of the customs and regulations in Thailand. Question on the topic at hand: My wife recently got hired to teach english at a hotel in Khao Lak.

What kind of background check would they do and what is a discriminating black mark?

Also what kind of education is she required to have to get a work permit?

[dunque]

i know bugger all about teaching english but in 20 years as programmer and manager in the computer business, i can tell you there is no correlation betweeen college degrees and ability to do a good job.

also, why do they equate not having a degree with pedophiles and criminal behavior! what's the basis for that.

steve

=================================================================

Steve; I totally agree with what you said; ergo: I happen to know, that if the teaching of English language-skills is left to Thai teachers (and I say this with utter respect for ANY teacher !) then we can forget any progress in the english language-skills of Thai students !

Even a socalled "non-qualified" foreign English teacher, will have a much more beneficial effect on Thai students English language abilities then the alternative Thai native English teachers.

Who was it who said: "Talent alone is not omnipotent; without ambition, talent is useless" ?

In other words; a person who is enthousiastic in his endeavour to teach Thai students the English language, at least in my book, will be much more effective than a person loaded with the right qualifications, but who'ld rather be sailing . . . . . .

The other important factor is; young Thai's do so desperately NEED proper English instruction, if they wish to get ahead in this world which puts so much emphasis on IT & Communications !

Anyone disagreeing should replay that CNN interview with the ex Prime Minister of this Nation, a "Dr." none the less; an individual who attained the rank of Pol. Col. and a "worldwide communicator" - I'll tell you; his English is abominable, to say the very least ! ! !

JGK/Pattaya

You make some good points. However, judging by the enthusiastic and often inappropriate use of semicolons, I feel a punctution refresher course maybe in order.

[drummer]

To obtain a work permit to work legally in Thailand for a year, one of the requirements is to have a university degree........

This is a current loophole in the Thai recruitment regulations, which has allowed pedophiles, radically under-qualified individuals and other undesirables to teach in Thai schools.

So a paedophile with a degree is allowed to teach???

I am sorry this just typical of the muddled, knee jerk thinking employed by Thai officials.

ROFL The Thais "muddled"? Seems to be going around, it does... Great post, Tonyinthailand. ROFL. Couldn't have been said better!

[logpoacher]

I am not a teacher, but I have a couple of points to raise:

1/ All the farang teachers I know here in Thailand do have batchelor's degrees; however, in the UK the normal length of a batchelor's degree course is three years, not four. Even though my degree course was termed a "four year, thick sandwich" (!), which translates as two years at university, one year in industry and then a final year at university, I only have transcripts for the three years at university. No one I know, apart from opticians, dentists and doctors, has a four year batchelor's degree from a UK university.

2/ When I was at school (ordinary state school) in England (insert your own jokes here about writing on slates, looking forward to the invention of the wheel, etc.), as part of our foreign language studies we had what were called "language assistants" who were nationals of the relevant country, not qualified teachers, to help us with our conversation. They were usually students on a gap year. It is with deep shame that I report that they were treated by us much as farang teachers are treated here! If ever the regular teacher was not present, the classroom would be chaos, very little teaching (or learning) was done. Perhaps Thailand should consider creating this class of teaching assistant who must be a native speaker but is not required to have a degree or to teach detailed grammar and assists the Thai teacher by demonstrating proper pronunciation, taking part in role playing exercises, etc. Obviously, they should still have a police check. This post would suit the many retired folks who don't want a full time job, but would be quite happy to spend a day or two a week helping at their local school. The gentleman who posted earlier about repeatedly being asked to teach English could easily do this, as could I, even though we are not trained teachers. The Thai teacher would be the resource for questions about grammar and so on. In my extremely limited experience, Thai teachers do not have a problem with this, as I have been asked by several teachers in government schools to provide this sort of support. I did do it a couple of times, and enjoyed myself, until it was pointed out to me that even such unpaid, volunteer work requires a work permit and that anyone who didn't like me, my wife, any member of my wife's family, the teacher or the school could report me and cause me and the school a great deal of trouble.

[drummer]

Hey Guys,

I'm not familiar with all of the customs and regulations in Thailand. Question on the topic at hand: My wife recently got hired to teach english at a hotel in Khao Lak.

What kind of background check would they do and what is a discriminating black mark?

Also what kind of education is she required to have to get a work permit?

In theory, you wife needs a college degree and/or TOEFL/TEFL/etc. In theory. In practice, don't worry about it ... this is in all likelyhood a smoke screen. If they actually implement it, though, things will get better for most everyone in LOS. Not least of which is the Thais!

[pgs]

The big question is...

Which version of English are we teaching them?

It's generally easy to pick Filipino/a's, as their English is Yank. Sadly, Viet Nam suffers the same fate.

As an Aussie, I refuse US spelling - our local school gets AU/UK spelling & pronunciation.

I won't say I'm the best person for the job, but I am happy to put in the time with both kids & teachers to help improve either - and they are happy to have me there.

[andyc2006]

i know bugger all about teaching english but in 20 years as programmer and manager in the computer business, i can tell you there is no correlation betweeen college degrees and ability to do a good job.

also, why do they equate not having a degree with pedophiles and criminal behavior! what's the basis for that.

steve

bunk.

i only have 15 years in the software industry, but my non-scientific observation (which is probably all you've got behind you) is that there's a correlation between college degrees and peoples' ability to do a job.

remember that a correlation doesn't necessarily mean 100% correlation (or a correlation of "1," if you want to get technical). (rarely is a correlation that strong)

of all the college dropouts who flooded my industry during the "dot com" boom, barely 1 in 20 were worth 1/2 their pay.

of all the people doing their jobs well in my industry, nearly every one of them has a college degree.

yeah, there are exceptions. but to say there's no correlation is plain exaggeration. you're remembering the few exceptional cases you've come across in your career and forgetting the non-exceptional day-to-day college graduates and ignoring all the burger-flipping dropouts who'd drive you absolutely ######ing crazy if you had to work with such incompetent people every day -- especially if they were writing the applications that you use on your computer.

[PeaceBlondie]

There is a "terminology gap" here. In the U.S., a "diploma" only ever applies to your garden variety high school diploma. . On the other hand, in the UK, it can refer to a rather high certification, although not necessarily. For example the DELTA (Diploma in Engarishe Language Teaching(?) from Cambridge is a post-graduate qualification somewhere between a bachelors and a masters. Roughly 50% of a masters, I think. It's a good system.

Aloha,

Rex

Beg to differ with you, Rexall. Things in the USA are never referred to as 'only ever' . A diploma has always meant either the paper for graduating from high school, or from university as well, or even from a cake decorating school (which my daughter once earned). Americans still refer to universities as colleges, and some tertiary schools who grant BA and BS still call themselves college.

Also, is the DELTA from "cambridge" if earned in Thailand? Did you mean the far more rigorous DELTA, or the one-month CELTA course?

Alert! Excessive semi-colon usage alert! ;;;;;;

[mr_hippo]

I went to a grammar school in the North West of England. I am just on the right side of sixty. Not many people who were in my year went onto university - about 3%. I think that percentage was roughly the same nationwide. I cannot believe that a high proportion of the top 3% of Brits around my age are here in Thailand. A number of them trip themselves up, one went to the same school and was in the same year as an England international goalkeeper - despite a five year difference in ages!

There are other tertiary qualifications that are similar in status to a BA but these are not recognised in Thailand. As well as the BA, I can put 24 post nominal letters after my name and that does not include 'military rank(Rtd)! but without the BA I could not teach here - I know there are cases of people without who teach. I have also known people with an armful of qualifications who cannot teach. Forget the old adage 'Those who can do, those that can't teach' Would David Beckham make a good football coach? He knows what he does but can he explain to others how he does it?

What do you need to teach? You need something in your head, something in your hands but most of all you need it in your heart. Look at other teacher's forums, bad spelling and grammar (we are not teaching now so we do not have to be correct - I find it twice as hard to write bad English), simple grammar questions - How do I use an apostrophe?, What is the correct use of xxx? If you don't know simple grammar, how can you teach it?

What is the solution to getting the undesirables (with or without degrees) and keeping the desirables (with or without degrees)? I wish I knew!

[andyc2006]

having a degree does not mean you can teach.

now that's an entirely different assertion. of course not.

lots of us have degrees and know we'd make terrible teachers (i'm one).

however, all other factors being the same, you're better off finding an english teacher with a college degree than without one. there's a better probability that the college graduate will know the language better. whether or not that person can teach better is totally random, but knowing the material (or being more likely to know it) counts for something.

[Momo8]

If you are teaching IELTS,advanced English or English for Academic Purposes Uni level (which I did,dead bore so switched) it is always British English,standard pronounciation.Native speakers don't necessarily have the best pronounciation.Students have trouble understanding some teachers from NZ,Ireland,Scotland etc. Kids and young learners are more difficult to teach than older students and adults.

They have a thirst for knowledge and it is a joy to see them improve in leaps and bounds.Anybody who says teaching kids is easy and why spend years at uni to study to teach kids is an ignoramous.A stupid teacher makes a stupid pupil!

[PeaceBlondie]

The big question is...

Which version of English are we teaching them?

It's generally easy to pick Filipino/a's, as their English is Yank. Sadly, Viet Nam suffers the same fate.

As an Aussie, I refuse US spelling - our local school gets AU/UK spelling & pronunciation.

I won't say I'm the best person for the job, but I am happy to put in the time with both kids & teachers to help improve either - and they are happy to have me there.

Please, can we avoid getting into a Brit/Yank bashing contest, amongst the windscreen betwixt the bonnet and the boot of the drophead coupe whilst the spanner's in the works? All regular (or well qualified) TEFLers can teach both versions (except Hillbilly and Cockney). Labour/labor, elevator/lift. That is the least of the problems. Also, I have no ideah wheah you pahked youah cah.

[dviol]

How in depth are the background checks for the work permits? My wife for example got a job there teaching english at a hotel in khao lak, she is a recovering heroin addict and has criminal activity on her american police record.

I think she was even in jail for a time for misdemeanor theft knocked down from felony.( soon to be ex-wife). She is one of the "undesirables" trying to make a new start as a Buddhist in Thailand. Will they find this stuff and send her back to the US?

[beano2274]

Going back to the Degree thing, I have actually taught for the Ministry of Labour, at one of their customers sites, and was never asked for a degree or anything by them, so it seems to me that government offices do not really care as long as they are getting money.

I do believe that all teachers should be checked for criminal records and maybe we should do a test from the Ministry of Education, but to have a degree is a load of rubbish. Thailand seems to want a degree for everything, if Thais go abroad they do not need a degree to work, most of them I know work in Asda or Tescos, but we do not ask them for a Degree, do we? So stop the rubbish about degrees and get the MoE to test the teachers.

At language centres teachers are not checked, this is where the money is, the families do not care about degrees, all they do is look at the colour of the teachers skin.

Edited January 31, 2007 by beano2274

[Momo8]

Usually ten years though not 100% sure and it depends on the nature of the record.Serving time in prison doesn't look good.Generally the background checks are done to see if you have a police record of molesting children or any other crimes involving children.This also extends to AVOs and they will check out the Department of Community Services in your home country and previous schools worked for (conduct,attendance,reason for leaving etc.)

It also largely depends on the place employing your wife.I doubt a hotel will require such stringent checks but any international school does require this not only police checks.

As to answer PeaceBlondie (not sure how this quote thing works) nobody is bashing US or UK English.It is important to differentiate between the two styles of spelling/pronounciation and stick to one or the other.Schools will usually state they want US or UK English.

[thai_narak]

having a degree does not mean you can teach.

without a degree one should not teach at all...

[beano2274]

Hey Momo

I have taught at a school where the English Programme boss was Fillipino, the students in the first year were taught American English, then in the next year it was British English, then the next back to American English and then again into British English before going to a Prathom school, obvioulsy the MoE should decide which one and keep with it and also decide which books to use.

I only teach British English

[sensei]

Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?

Just curious : You're a teacher ???? In english ? Or maybe something else

worried if he's an english teacher?

I wouldn't trust him even if he's just my P.E teacher...

[beano2274]

Another question to the forum.

What degrees should we have as teachers?

I have seen people with degrees in engineering teaching English, if the Thais want to crackdown on the bad teachers then tell the schools they can only employ teachers who have a degree in English.

[thai_narak]

Hey Momo

I have taught at a school where the English Programme boss was Fillipino, the students in the first year were taught American English, then in the next year it was British English, then the next back to American English and then again into British English before going to a Prathom school, obvioulsy the MoE should decide which one and keep with it and also decide which books to use.

I only teach British English

your boss is confused. what is the reason why your programmes are switched to two different syntax of english? aren't the students confused as you are? the spelling quiz must have been a bloody one...

Edited January 31, 2007 by thai_narak

[beano2274]

Hey Momo

I have taught at a school where the English Programme boss was Fillipino, the students in the first year were taught American English, then in the next year it was British English, then the next back to American English and then again into British English before going to a Prathom school, obvioulsy the MoE should decide which one and keep with it and also decide which books to use.

I only teach British English

your boss is confused. what is the reason why your programmes are switched to two different syntax of english? aren't the students confused as you are? the spelling quiz must have been a bloody one...

It did not just confuse the kids, how about me and the other teachers, one year you give them a spelling test - color, the next year its wrong, they were all confused, but I must say it was a private kindergarten and the prices of books had a lot to do with it

[mr_hippo]

having a degree does not mean you can teach.

without a degree one should not teach at all...

I am a qualified nurse and none of my tutors had degrees, are you trying to say that I am less qualified than my niece who had a degreed tutor?

My son in law is a master baker taught by someone with a HND, does this make him a poor baker?

[Momo8]

Beano that is confusing to say the least.US English is more 'fashionable' usually because students and some schools see the US as 'The great white power where all people are rich,people have loads of cash and business opportunities are staggering and we want to talk like Brad Pitt in the movies" back to reality.Bad management dictates what is being taught and by whom what curriculum to use and what course books to provide.Teaching English is a business.The more money the schools make the better.Learning something is sometimes just a byproduct.Even International Schools can switch their curriculum at the drop of a satang.The school I was at switched from IPC (International Primary Curriculum) to the PYP in a matter of a few short weeks.Lots of extra work for teachers untrained in the PYP.Now a lot of schools are either IB schools or trying to get authorisation so if you are IB trained so much the better.

Teaching is never an easy job.I sometimes long for the days when I taught ESL...now easier to train to be a rocket scientist.I love teaching,hate the admit stuff.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Momo8

[thai_narak]

Another question to the forum.

What degrees should we have as teachers?

I have seen people with degrees in engineering teaching English, if the Thais want to crackdown on the bad teachers then tell the schools they can only employ teachers who have a degree in English.

Don't you have to be BA in English to teach english language? That engineering guy should teach engineering subjects.