American English To Thai Translations

[andy1308]

Hi,

I work for a publishing company and we will be launching a Thai edition of BusinessWeek magazine this June. My question is regarding translations, because we will be using some of the original American English stories in our magazine.

Some of the words and phrases that are used are business or financial specific, for example the phrase 'dead cat bounce'. Am I right in assuming that a translation of this phrase would require a complete description of what is meant by that phrase - as opposed to just a translation of the words?

I guess there are other similar words too that will have no direct Thai tranlsation?

One final question; where is the best place to look for people that will be able to cope with these translations? Ideally we would want a small team of in-house translators but, so far, I've not found anyone that even comes close to what we are looking for.

Any help, suggestions, advice, etc, would be very welcome and much appreciated.

Best regards,

Andy.

[tgeezer]

Hi,

I work for a publishing company and we will be launching a Thai edition of BusinessWeek magazine this June. My question is regarding translations, because we will be using some of the original American English stories in our magazine.

Some of the words and phrases that are used are business or financial specific, for example the phrase 'dead cat bounce'. Am I right in assuming that a translation of this phrase would require a complete description of what is meant by that phrase - as opposed to just a translation of the words?

I guess there are other similar words too that will have no direct Thai tranlsation?

One final question; where is the best place to look for people that will be able to cope with these translations? Ideally we would want a small team of in-house translators but, so far, I've not found anyone that even comes close to what we are looking for.

Any help, suggestions, advice, etc, would be very welcome and much appreciated.

Best regards,

Andy.

I think you would be fairly safe to just slap in the English, people who read it wont know but they can find out. I have no more idea than a Thai has what your example means, is it a financial term? I tried to make the joke in golf "I couldn't hit a cow's ass with a banjo" one of my favourites, and got blank looks. The biggest obstacle to understanding this example was 'banjo' had to be explained and having established that it was a musicle instrument; it is not funny to use a, practically speaking, 'Sacred object", something to be treated with utmost respect on that part of an animals anatomy! "I am so hungry my stomach thinks that my throat is cut" another example; how can a stomach think? and if your throat is cut how could you feel anything, right? No joke what so ever. These could appear in your mag. and there would be no point would there? So you need a highly educated motivated imaginative Thai with excellent translation skills. I would go to a bookshop and look at books you will find there translated from English, find the publishers, find the writers, and talk to them, you go and look in the places where they came from or were educated.

[meadish_sweetball]

Where would I start? Just some ideas:

I might try to arrange a meeting with lecturers at the faculties of economics at Chulalongkorn University and University of Thammasart and ask them for advice about this. The idea with bookshops is not bad either, but you will obviously have no way of assessing the quality of the translations yourself.

The best quality publication I know of in Thai is Matichon Sut Sapadaa มติชนสุดสัปดาห์, the weekend edition of Matichon. They manage to attract expert writers writing in-depth on a great many subjects, although the focus is on current events. They are part of the greater Matichon Group which also has their own publishing company: http://www.matichon.co.th/

There is also the newspaper Krungthep Thurakit (Biz Week) which seems to be generally regarded as a quality publication, and should have people knowledgeable in the fields you plan to write about. http://www.bangkokbizweek.com/

You will need to do some market research about the comprehension level of your expected readership. Do not expect people to understand English jargon words. You will need very highly skilled translators for this, because if you want the articles to flow and be publishable in a Thai context, they will need heavy reprocessing.

[andy1308]

Thanks for your replies and suggestions - they are much appreciated.

Because BusinessWeek is part of McGraw-Hill, I've already had a chat with their publishing operation in Bangkok. They currently translate many educational and medical books from American English into Thai, mostly done by freelancers as I understand it. I've already got contacts at Thammasart so I guess I ought to start using them too.

BusinessWeek is the number one in its field because of the quality of the journalism. We intend to maintain that throughout - and obviously the quality of the translations must be as good as the original stories, or else there's little point publishing in the first place.

Our research (yes, we have done some) shows the average reader will have an understanding of business issues and global affairs, although as you say the translations may need 'reprocessing' for any American-specific words, phrases or material.

Andy.

[steveromagnino]

Thanks for your replies and suggestions - they are much appreciated.

Because BusinessWeek is part of McGraw-Hill, I've already had a chat with their publishing operation in Bangkok. They currently translate many educational and medical books from American English into Thai, mostly done by freelancers as I understand it. I've already got contacts at Thammasart so I guess I ought to start using them too.

BusinessWeek is the number one in its field because of the quality of the journalism. We intend to maintain that throughout - and obviously the quality of the translations must be as good as the original stories, or else there's little point publishing in the first place.

Our research (yes, we have done some) shows the average reader will have an understanding of business issues and global affairs, although as you say the translations may need 'reprocessing' for any American-specific words, phrases or material.

Andy.

I highly doubt that you would have a problem dropping in a phrase written in english 'dead cat bounce' then explaining what it meansin Thai. In fact, I think you will find that when it comes to finance, working as I am with financiers, that a phrase like this would be used in english more often than not. In fact, there is no Thai equivalent to dead cat bounce, the only option is to explain it as 'Kwarm mai kue garn briap teep talart gup dtua meow tee seea chewit bpai laew. Meow tee dtae laew lae dtok jahk kwarm soong ja yung deng dai nit noi muan gup talart tee dtok yung rang dtae ja mee garn keun nit noi lung jahk garn dtok'

hel_l, that isn't my best translation, but honestly, you would ahve to say something about this length to express what 'the dead cat bounce' is.

I would say you might like to have a glossary guide to the english slang; and explain using a combination of cartoons and translation, some of the slang used in each issue. It might be as little as 1/8 page column. If interested, I would actually quite like to be part of the team writing it; I think I can find a finance expert who teaches at Duke in USA (and is Thai) willing to write it under a nom de plume as well. To insert it into an article may totally lose the thread of the article altogether.

I don't think you'll find too much issue with American specific words; the bigger issue is going to be discipline specific words especially in finance and economics. The fact that you have english speakers not even knowing what a dead cat bounce is lends weight to that. Hence a slightly different section of slang would be kind of cool.

In marketing, people read and use slang regarding positioning branding and other <deleted> all the time, mostly using english inserted directly into Thai. Take a look at Thai marketing magazines like Marketeer, POsitioning and 4 Ps - all successful and, since they are marketing, probably aiming at a lower end market with even less english ability that the business week would be.

Of course....it goes like this:

the people that run the country read Phoojudgarn

the people from another country that think they should run the country read Economist

the people who maybe one day will run the country read Matichon

the people who think the country should be run by another country read Singapore Times

the people who don't like the people running the country read the Nation

so...what about Thai raht?

Well, the readers of Thai raht don't mind who runs the country, so long as she has big T*ts :-)

[well, I cannot claim complete ownership of this intellectual property, and must thank Sir Humphrey Appleby for the inspiration.]

[meadish_sweetball]

the people that run the country read Phoojudgarn

the people from another country that think they should run the country read Economist

the people who maybe one day will run the country read Matichon

the people who think the country should be run by another country read Singapore Times

the people who don't like the people running the country read the Nation

so...what about Thai raht?

Well, the readers of Thai raht don't mind who runs the country, so long as she has big T*ts :-)

Excellent summary.

[andy1308]

the people that run the country read Phoojudgarn

the people from another country that think they should run the country read Economist

the people who maybe one day will run the country read Matichon

the people who think the country should be run by another country read Singapore Times

the people who don't like the people running the country read the Nation

so...what about Thai raht?

Well, the readers of Thai raht don't mind who runs the country, so long as she has big T*ts :-)

I'll use that, if I can, when I am trying to explain the media set-up in Thailand to foreign publishers. I am sure they'll get the idea better than I could ever explain ! <smiles>

[ColPyat]

One final question; where is the best place to look for people that will be able to cope with these translations? Ideally we would want a small team of in-house translators but, so far, I've not found anyone that even comes close to what we are looking for.

You will have to rely there on the contacts of your Thai editorial team. Another option would be to ask around in the companies you obviously will be close to if they can recommend somebody.

I don't know how experienced you are in Thailand, and what your budgets are, but you have to be very careful in putting your staff together that the right harmony is there, more so than in a western environment.

Maybe you should have informal meetings with foreign editors, or managers of other licensed publications. There are many around in all different fields that are not in competition to you.

I have had several friends over the years who have built up such magazines here in editorial positions, and unfortunately i must tell you that most have not been able to stay long. Either they were loved by their staff, and hated by their management, or loved by the management, and rejected by their staff. And obviously they were always hindered by the all powerful accountant department and the PR department, who do work in truly wonderous ways here in Thailand. And the Thai partners are another completely different subject.

Corruption is rife on all levels, and this will not be easy for you to deal with. From writers to researchers to accountants to advertisment staff all are used to perks.

It's gonna be an interesting experience...

[andy1308]

Colpyat - thanks for your input.

I have been here for eight months now, and after a steep learning curve I am pretty well versed in the ways of both the Thai media and workplace culture. I am in the fortunate position of being able to create a team specifically for the new magazine. We do have around 55 staff right now, but only two of them have expressed an interest in working for BusinessWeek. They understand the standards needed will be so much higher than anything they have experienced before, which is why the vast majority of them are not interested. Yes - balance and harmony are going to be crucial, but isn't that the same in any business? Conflict in the workplace is never a good thing.

We will be adopting a Code of Ethics - which is unheard of as far as I know in Thailand - and that code will be feely available for everyone to see. We will be audited - and right now there are only two paid-for magazines in the whole country that are. Everything we do will be transparent and above board - and I am making that crystal clear to all the staff. I am not bragging when I say that the new magazine will be one of the most professional operations in Thailand. It has to be, because BusinessWeek has a strong reputation and brand image and we must live up to that.

I already have good contacts with other publishing companies here. The truth is, having spoken to many foreign publishers with existing deals here, they are not happy with their Thai partners for one reason or another. The main concern they seem to have is the 'corruption' issue, along with the lack of international experience. Yet there are MANY publishers that still want to talk about coming to Thailand. I was the only Thai company with a booth at last year's World Magazine Marketplace exhibition in London and I was swamped with enquiries from publishers wanting to license their titles here. For companies that can do it right, there is still a lot of potential.

I am under no illusions about the challenges ahead, but I am very fortunate that I have financial backers who see that as an investment as opposed to a cost. We are already seeing the benefits though, in terms of profile and benefits to other titles in our company. As I said, it will be hard but it's not impossible. Any company is only as good as its staff, which is why are looking for the best in each field. Translators are vital because the majority of our initial content will be translated material. That will reduce over time though, but they will still be needed for other titles that we are already negotiating to bring here.

You're right about this being an 'interesting experience', believe me it already is ! <smiles>

[mr_hippo]

.Some of the words and phrases that are used are business or financial specific, for example the phrase 'dead cat bounce'. Am I right in assuming that a translation of this phrase would require a complete description of what is meant by that phrase - as opposed to just a translation of the words?

I

Can you translate the phrase into Thai? Yes, easily. Would it be understood by a Thai speaking businessman? Probably not. Think of any British idiomatic expression, would it be understood by a non-British English speaker? Possibly not.

[andy1308]

Mr Hippo - thanks. I know what you mean. Even some of the language used in BusinessWeek currently sends me searching for the dictionary, although I also think that for Thai business people to know some of the American and British specific business terminology is no bad thing. As has been suggested, I think the best way is to use the phrase and then give a Thai explanation of exactly what it means.

[ColPyat]

Colpyat - thanks for your input.

I have been here for eight months now, and after a steep learning curve I am pretty well versed in the ways of both the Thai media and workplace culture. I am in the fortunate position of being able to create a team specifically for the new magazine. We do have around 55 staff right now, but only two of them have expressed an interest in working for BusinessWeek. They understand the standards needed will be so much higher than anything they have experienced before, which is why the vast majority of them are not interested. Yes - balance and harmony are going to be crucial, but isn't that the same in any business? Conflict in the workplace is never a good thing.

We will be adopting a Code of Ethics - which is unheard of as far as I know in Thailand - and that code will be feely available for everyone to see. We will be audited - and right now there are only two paid-for magazines in the whole country that are. Everything we do will be transparent and above board - and I am making that crystal clear to all the staff. I am not bragging when I say that the new magazine will be one of the most professional operations in Thailand. It has to be, because BusinessWeek has a strong reputation and brand image and we must live up to that.

I already have good contacts with other publishing companies here. The truth is, having spoken to many foreign publishers with existing deals here, they are not happy with their Thai partners for one reason or another. The main concern they seem to have is the 'corruption' issue, along with the lack of international experience. Yet there are MANY publishers that still want to talk about coming to Thailand. I was the only Thai company with a booth at last year's World Magazine Marketplace exhibition in London and I was swamped with enquiries from publishers wanting to license their titles here. For companies that can do it right, there is still a lot of potential.

I am under no illusions about the challenges ahead, but I am very fortunate that I have financial backers who see that as an investment as opposed to a cost. We are already seeing the benefits though, in terms of profile and benefits to other titles in our company. As I said, it will be hard but it's not impossible. Any company is only as good as its staff, which is why are looking for the best in each field. Translators are vital because the majority of our initial content will be translated material. That will reduce over time though, but they will still be needed for other titles that we are already negotiating to bring here.

You're right about this being an 'interesting experience', believe me it already is ! <smiles>

I personally have difficulties to understand why there are so many publishers who want to license their mags here in Thailand. I do agree very much with you about the potential, but the difficulties are tremendous.

A typical example is the pricing talks. Your advertisement dept., your accountancy dept. and your Thai partner will all close ranks in saying that Thailand is different than any other country, and in order to get ads, you magazine has to be expensive, otherwise the potential advertisers will think that it is low class. Which then means that you will solely survive on ads, and won't sell much, your copies will disappear in some cellar (regardless of auditing).

But if you analyse the market - you will find out that the only magazines who have high sales are the Thai magazines that sell for 50 baht and less. And apart from vanity enetrprises such as Elle, those were the only magazines that survived the last crises in '97, because the first ones who disappear when things start going haywire are your advertisers. But good luck with the negotiations.

The way how usually mags work is being not audited, your Ad guys go to the potential advertiser, say that the edition is in Bangkok alone 40 000, all sold of course, while in reality it just is 2000, of which 1000 don't sell, and 500 are given away for free. Everybody is in it, everybody knows, and there are always perks going everywhere. And it is just less work, and a lot smoother.

You gotta control your writers constantly that they don't write some fluff piece on a company where friends are working and who get them some perks.

Etc.

I had the opportunity to have a semi outside/semi inside look in several of those mags here, how they were built up (one of the audited ones as well), and some of it was surreal, to say the least.

[steveromagnino]

I personally have difficulties to understand why there are so many publishers who want to license their mags here in Thailand. I do agree very much with you about the potential, but the difficulties are tremendous.

A typical example is the pricing talks. Your advertisement dept., your accountancy dept. and your Thai partner will all close ranks in saying that Thailand is different than any other country, and in order to get ads, you magazine has to be expensive, otherwise the potential advertisers will think that it is low class. Which then means that you will solely survive on ads, and won't sell much, your copies will disappear in some cellar (regardless of auditing).

But if you analyse the market - you will find out that the only magazines who have high sales are the Thai magazines that sell for 50 baht and less. And apart from vanity enetrprises such as Elle, those were the only magazines that survived the last crises in '97, because the first ones who disappear when things start going haywire are your advertisers. But good luck with the negotiations.

The way how usually mags work is being not audited, your Ad guys go to the potential advertiser, say that the edition is in Bangkok alone 40 000, all sold of course, while in reality it just is 2000, of which 1000 don't sell, and 500 are given away for free. Everybody is in it, everybody knows, and there are always perks going everywhere. And it is just less work, and a lot smoother.

You gotta control your writers constantly that they don't write some fluff piece on a company where friends are working and who get them some perks.

Etc.

I had the opportunity to have a semi outside/semi inside look in several of those mags here, how they were built up (one of the audited ones as well), and some of it was surreal, to say the least.

I have independently done work in this area for various clients, to clarify their marketing plans and media spend.

It is indeed fact that the majority of magazines in the fashion glossy lifestyle segment are priced below cost of production and therefore loss lead with sales, and subsidise using ads; fashion and cosmetics are major categories for spending. Incidentally, i would hardly describe Elle (verified in our work as a then market leader in the then 80b fashion category against Lips, Prew, Brio, DiChan, PGP, etc) as a vanity project; if run right it should be a viable component of Hachette Filapachi's empire; it gave them the 'in' to do their other magazines like Marie Claire...unless you want to call the entire division a 'vanity project', as Elle is the most successful AFAIK or their empire over there. Your sales analysis is spot on; one magazine claiming a circulation of 150,000 actually had a print run of 3,000. Another which is aimed at the society set charges roughly double the price for ads, has fairly lame editorial (although quite good special editions) and has a print run less than 10,000, despite claims of readership unofficially in the 70-80 thousands.

The next rung down magazines like Lisa, Oops, OK, TV Pool are printed on lower stock paper, and presumably actually sell at a very small profit/breakeven, then also make money on ads with much lower production costs as well thanks to some shared editorial, fewer 'vanity project' fashion shoots (actually that phrase is growing on me :-) and more loyal readership.

So in some ways Thailand is different; in say NZ most of the magazines would sell at a profit; the advertising would be set as a proportion of the cost of the magazine, and there would be audited readership from Neilson or similar (if you choose to believe it...well that is another subject). Here....no audit, loss leading magazines for Africa, relatively cheap ad rates as well.....not the easiest market.

Whether say LISA or Ooops or Hello (foreign operations set up here) make money I cannot say. At least not here. I know that the foreign operators tend to be less in touch with some of the local magazines (e.g. Elle vs. Praew) for much of the copy and interviews, and have a higher cost position as soon as you start having foreign execs flying around the place. Journalism standards of say FHM Thai vs. overseas...no different, same drivel. Worldwide, sadly, most journalists are lousy writers and the number of decent magazines in the world is pretty low - New Yorker, Biz Week, Economist, Seahorse, nat Geo, Forbes almost bearable and a few others. Time?? Please. That is the goofball Fox news channel of magazines. I wonder whether perhaps readers just cannot tell what is PR dross and what is an article? How else to explain say, Sailing World magazine? The standards of investigative journalism in say Ta**er or Li*s...well you would have to read quite a few to get something beyond PR drivel scrubbed up. In the b*g Ch***i you might find some decent investigative journalism occasionally, but all common to a single theme that all Thai men are bad, all western men are the best thing in Thailand, and British men like drinking beer. Go to Matichon or similar if you want something decent. And that is a long way from fashion and 'lifestyle'.

But I digress. Is the fashion shoot magazine industry the right one to compare to? I say, not really.

My guess is that if Economist can sell and presumably make money at 140b per issue (imported, distributed and sold) then Business Week should get along ok despite the higher costs. The people who read 3 newspapers every day are the business community, and right now there is a slight hole in the market for a quality THai language business magazine; most of the marketing and MBA type mags are still fashiony lifestyle 'vanity projects' or at the least lack quality journalism. GM rated well with business types as they have indepth interview with actual business people about business subjects; if Business week sticks to business and inserts a few lifestyle bits that Thai business people care about, then it should do fine. Watch advertorial maybe, lxuury cars, business hotels around the world, that sort of thing.

Biggest issue will be whether most of the target market are already capable of reading the same magazine in English or not; I am sure Andy you've researched this, and can answer that 'yes they can read it in english, but no they would prefer to read some of the articles in Thai plus they want to read some local content with investigative balanced journalism extending beyond Phoogudgarn, Matichon and so on.

For sure...when there is blood on the streets and lots happening, it is a good time to launch. I don't think advertising to business people will ever dry up; GM made it through 1997, so will Business Week. I have faith :-)