In surprise summit concession, Trump says he will halt Korea war games

[Morch]

10 hours ago, sanemax said:

The Iran deal is a separate issue and its off topic .

Two different situations and incomparable 

This thread and discussion is about Trump and Kim

 

How are the two situations not comparable? How is Trump conduct related to the Iran Deal irrelevant?

Insisting on ignoring any past information which proves uncomfortable, might be fine - if there's a coherent and reasonable reason for doing so. You fail to provide such.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, sanemax said:

If Donald doesnt want to participate in war games, he doesnt have to and he doesnt have to ask or tell anyone before hand .

   What difference does it make , if Donald told SK last week or next week ?

Donald and Kim came to an agreement : No more rocket testing and in return, no more military exercises  , Donald will then inform SK that USA will not participate in any more war games 

 

I don't know the specific details of the agreements between the US and SK. Somehow doubt that your assertion is based on intimate familiarity with such, specifically with regard to US obligations about informing this or that. 

 

The difference it makes is that countries usually treat allies better than they treat those who were enemies yesterday.

 

 

[Morch]

12 hours ago, sanemax said:

I do not know why people are surprised by this move .

The joint US/SK military exercises in the area were to prepare for a war with North Korea , now that there is a new era of friendship between USA & NK , there are now no need for these military exercises .

   It would show a lack of distrust in the peace agreement , if the USA continued preparing for war with NK , by continuing their military exercises in the region

 

Other than in your posts, there is no such "new era". There are words on paper, and it is yet to be seen if they will develop into something concrete. You jumping the gun doesn't change facts and reality.

 

There is nothing in NK's international relations which particularly inspires trust. NK's own stance is distrustful. Signing a peace of paper doesn't do away with the distrust. This take a whole lot more than words. Giving something for nothing might not be the best way to go about it.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, dragonballz said:

same again i would like to post but being a trump supporter do not want to get banned

 

 

[InMyShadow]

Well he just got nominated for the Nobel peace prize. 

 

The man is simply a genius, seems nothing is out of his reach! 

Well done Trump! 

[lannarebirth]

41 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Apparently South Korea was surprised by this. And despite denials, seem this applies for the Pentagon as well. It would have been more appropriate to make it conditional on something tangible from North Korea's end, or to inform allies about intentions.

It does not surprise me that SK was surprised by this or Korean based military units. It IS surprising to me that you and others don't choose to believe the Pentagon was aware of the suspension of military exercises as a negotiation chip despite their assurances that they were "in the loop" and had offered their counsel. We do not not know if what Trump offered with regard to military exercise is in keeping with their counsel or despite their counsel but I don't think it is correct to say they were surprised.

Edited June 13, 2018 by lannarebirth

[sirineou]

12 hours ago, Rarebear said:

Would anyone listen to you on the other side if you started out by saying, "Trump is an inarticulate oaf!"  That is the problem with trying to have a discussion here. 

 Have you listen to him talk? what would you call him? An Orator? 

The man can't string two proper sentences together. 

 

[Morch]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

It does not surprise me that SK was surprised by this or Korean based military units. It IS surprising to me that you and others don't choose to believe the Pentagon was aware of the suspension of military exercises as a negotiation chip despite their assurances that they were "in the loop" and had offered their counsel. We do not not know if what Trump offered with regard to military exercise is in keeping with their counsel or despite their counsel but I don't think it is correct to say they were surprised.

 

A Pentagon comment was linked on this or one of the other running topics. While it denied the Pentagon wasn't in the loop, it also said that the Pentagon needs to study the implications or some such. An odd comment if things were discussed beforehand.

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

A Pentagon comment was linked on this or one of the other running topics. While it denied the Pentagon wasn't in the loop, it also said that the Pentagon needs to study the implications or some such. An odd comment if things were discussed beforehand.

 

I think that means which specific exercises may be suspended and what other training, outside Korea may take place to ensure military readiness. I didn't hear anything from them that suggested they wouldn't continue doing everything to maintain readiness. Just that they may need to reconfigure how that is achieved.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I think that means which specific exercises may be suspended and what other training, outside Korea may take place to ensure military readiness. I didn't hear anything from them that suggested they wouldn't continue doing everything to maintain readiness. Just that they may need to reconfigure how that is achieved.

 

I doubt there would have been a need to consider these things if the Pentagon was properly informed beforehand. In that case they would have already done the assessment prior to the talks.

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt there would have been a need to consider these things if the Pentagon was properly informed beforehand. In that case they would have already done the assessment prior to the talks.

 

Maybe they did consider these things prior to the announcement. Maybe the announcement was not a given in the negotiations and was a option held in reserve if needed. I don't know and I don't think you do either. I do not think the Pentagon is lying about giving counsel about this. If they were surprised I think they would not comment at all rather than concoct a lie. That's just my opinion.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Maybe they did consider these things prior to the announcement. Maybe the announcement was not a given in the negotiations and was a option held in reserve if needed. I don't know and I don't think you do either. I do not think the Pentagon is lying about giving counsel about this. If they were surprised I think they would not comment at all rather than concoct a lie. That's just my opinion.

 

Didn't claim that I "know". Just pointing out that the comment was odd. And it wouldn't be the first time that the Pentagon (or the State Department, or Trump's own staff) cover for Trump's announcing things out of the blue.

[johnnybangkok]

I think the fact that this agreement is just 'to work towards the denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula' and contains no actual commitments from NK nor any details on how denuclearization can be achieved tells you more about what this was all about than anything Trump wants to spin. Trump is so desperate for an international win after basically snubbing all his traditional key allies at the G7 conference and doing his best to start a trade war, with literally everyone that anything before the November midterms that looks remotely like a win is jumped on, exaggerated and spun to maximum benefit. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; this is a PR exercise for both Trump and KJU with little to no chance of actually achieving anything. KJU will wax lyrical for a while, look like he's doing something to appease his frustrated benefactor China and then go straight back to being the horrific dictator he is. There's no way this guy is going to give up his nukes. He knows that, Trump knows that and any sane individual with half an understanding of world politics knows this.      

[Hummin]

At the same time 

 

Russian navy kicks off largest naval maneuver in 10 years in a surprise exercise aimed to counter a massive enemy attack.

 

Norway not informed

Press-spokesman at Norway’s military Joint Headquarters, Major Brynjar Stordal, says to the Barents Observer that Norway was not informed about the naval drill.

“Russian forces in the north have over time had a relatively high level of activities in different fields, something they have all rights to do within own territory and in international waters and airspace.”

 

http://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2018/06/13/russia-drill-ships-northern-fleet-norway-surprise-barents/

 

Nato is building up against Russian border, and it is expected to have more and stronger presence from USa in the Nighbouring countries. 

 

 

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

At the same time 

 

Russian navy kicks off largest naval maneuver in 10 years in a surprise exercise aimed to counter a massive enemy attack.

 

Norway not informed

Press-spokesman at Norway’s military Joint Headquarters, Major Brynjar Stordal, says to the Barents Observer that Norway was not informed about the naval drill.

“Russian forces in the north have over time had a relatively high level of activities in different fields, something they have all rights to do within own territory and in international waters and airspace.”

 

http://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2018/06/13/russia-drill-ships-northern-fleet-norway-surprise-barents/

 

Nato is building up against Russian border, and it is expected to have more and stronger presence from USa in the Nighbouring countries. 

 

 

I have a feeling that your post will get deleted for being off-topic

[geriatrickid]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

It does not surprise me that SK was surprised by this or Korean based military units. It IS surprising to me that you and others don't choose to believe the Pentagon was aware of the suspension of military exercises as a negotiation chip despite their assurances that they were "in the loop" and had offered their counsel. We do not not know if what Trump offered with regard to military exercise is in keeping with their counsel or despite their counsel but I don't think it is correct to say they were surprised.

I think we will have to wait for the truth to come out. I  expect that some of the career military people with  front line experience are being tested now in respect to keeping quiet. It must be  rather difficult when a big mouth who avoided service with his "bone spurs" excuse wraps himself in the flag with his patriotic bluster. Trump may not see the benefit of keeping military assets overseas, but the USA is going to get a very  hard awakening soon enough when it finds it has no friends to support US policy or to trade with  after the Trump temper tantrums. South Korea just got thrown under the bus, and to be honest, they have to take a large part of the responsibility by  playing both sides.

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

There's no way this guy is going to give up his nukes. He knows that, Trump knows that and any sane individual with half an understanding of world politics knows this. 

How do you know this though ?

How do you know what Kims future intentions are ?

How does Trump know what Kim will do in the future ?

 

[lannarebirth]

12 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

I think we will have to wait for the truth to come out. I  expect that some of the career military people with  front line experience are being tested now in respect to keeping quiet. It must be  rather difficult when a big mouth who avoided service with his "bone spurs" excuse wraps himself in the flag with his patriotic bluster. Trump may not see the benefit of keeping military assets overseas, but the USA is going to get a very  hard awakening soon enough when it finds it has no friends to support US policy or to trade with  after the Trump temper tantrums. South Korea just got thrown under the bus, and to be honest, they have to take a large part of the responsibility by  playing both sides.

 

I think it may be one of Trump's goals to get SK and Japan to take on a large part of the responsibility.... and the cost, of what happens from here. US troops in SK isn't on the table so SK shouldn't feel abandoned.

[Hummin]

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I have a feeling that your post will get deleted for being off-topic

Everything happens for a reason ? And this might be part of showing muscles! 

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, sanemax said:

How do you know this though ?

How do you know what Kims future intentions are ?

How does Trump know what Kim will do in the future ?

 

 

You seem to have no issues with making the exact opposite claims.

[johnnybangkok]

48 minutes ago, sanemax said:

How do you know this though ?

How do you know what Kims future intentions are ?

How does Trump know what Kim will do in the future ?

 

My crystal ball is at the repair shop just now so obviously none of us can really know anything but I'm as confident in my prediction as you seem to be that KJU is going to do a complete u-turn, become a model leader, start treating his people well and give up all his nukes. I think my skepticism is healthy and your musings are just delusional.

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You seem to have no issues with making the exact opposite claims.

Although I am basing my opposite claims on what has been said and on signed agreements .   I believe that Kim will give up his nukes , on the basis of what he has said and on what he has agreed too .

  There are also other factors , such as Kim wants sanctions lifted , pressure from China , he doeant want a war with the USA and also that his nuclear weapons are not too good .

   That is what I am basing my claims on .

What was JohhnnyBKK basing his claims on, when he stated that "there was no way NK will give up their nukes" ?

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Although I am basing my opposite claims on what has been said and on signed agreements .   I believe that Kim will give up his nukes , on the basis of what he has said and on what he has agreed too .

  There are also other factors , such as Kim wants sanctions lifted , pressure from China , he doeant want a war with the USA and also that his nuclear weapons are not too good .

   That is what I am basing my claims on .

What was JohhnnyBKK basing his claims on, when he stated that "there was no way NK will give up their nukes" ?

 

 

You are basing you assertions on interpretations of what's been said and signed. What you "believe" is a different category of reality than what "is". That you keep implying an insight into both Kim and Trump's motivations doesn't actually mean your views are more solidly founded.

 

There were enough posts on this and parallel topics making the case for views opposite then your own. That you cite a bit and ignore the rest is pretty much in line with the insistence on ignoring both leaders' past, or certain parts of history related relations between the countries, and negotiations.

 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are basing you assertions on interpretations of what's been said and signed. What you "believe" is a different category of reality than what "is". That you keep implying an insight into both Kim and Trump's motivations doesn't actually mean your views are more solidly founded.

 

There were enough posts on this and parallel topics making the case for views opposite then your own. That you cite a bit and ignore the rest is pretty much in line with the insistence on ignoring both leaders' past, or certain parts of history related relations between the countries, and negotiations.

 

It is quite clear what has been said and what has been signed , that is a "reality" and that is what I believe .

   My implications about the motive of Trump and Kim are based on the reality of the situation on facts known .

  I am aware of the histories of both the USA/Trump/Kim and NK and the relations between them , but IMO , they all have moved on from previous hostilities and are all moving forward to a new era .

  This is the end of the last relic of the cold war .

[sanemax]

25 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

I'm as confident in my prediction as you seem to be that KJU is going to do a complete u-turn, become a model leader, start treating his people well and give up all his nukes. I think my skepticism is healthy and your musings are just delusional.

You are claiming that I am "delusional" on things that you made up .

I have never made the claim that Kim will be a "model leader , do a complete U-turn and to start treating his people well " .

   You made something up, attributed it to me...............and then claimed that I am delusional !!!!!!!!

   

[Srikcir]

12 minutes ago, sanemax said:

This is the end of the last relic of the cold war

No, that would be Putin's absence from power.

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, sanemax said:

It is quite clear what has been said and what has been signed , that is a "reality" and that is what I believe .

   My implications about the motive of Trump and Kim are based on the reality of the situation on facts known .

  I am aware of the histories of both the USA/Trump/Kim and NK and the relations between them , but IMO , they all have moved on from previous hostilities and are all moving forward to a new era .

  This is the end of the last relic of the cold war .

 

What is clear, for those not too invested in adulating Trump, is that the document signed doesn't quite live up to the hype. You take the rather vague items included and imply they are more than that. That's not reality, but your view. Same goes for you take on leaders' motives - it's an opinion, based on your interpretation of selected facts - and it doesn't command greater validity than other views, to put it mildly.

 

You keep confusing between what is your opinion, and what is real. That you say "IMO, they have moved on.." etc. doesn't actually make it so.

 

The last line is just more generalized nonsense.

[Jingthing]

"trump" isn't in the slightest interested in facts or history (except when they can be wildly distorted to promote his propaganda agenda) so it's no surprise that many of his core fans aren't either! 

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You keep confusing between what is your opinion, and what is real. That you say "IMO, they have moved on.." etc. doesn't actually make it so.

 

That just doesnt make sense .

When I wrote "IMO (In my opinion)" , how can you say I am confusing my opinion with  what is real ?

   When I wrote "In my opinion" , I quite clearly meant "in my opinion" .

I do think that now you are just deliberately being obtuse  .

  I stated my opinion about what will happen in the future , of course I may be wrong .

No one knows what will happen in the future .

You keep stating that my view is my view .

I know that , you dont have to keep on telling me

[johnnybangkok]

43 minutes ago, sanemax said:

You are claiming that I am "delusional" on things that you made up .

I have never made the claim that Kim will be a "model leader , do a complete U-turn and to start treating his people well " .

   You made something up, attributed it to me...............and then claimed that I am delusional !!!!!!!!

   

I was of course exaggerating to make a point. 

This whole back and forth started with your statement 'Would you like to see this peace agreement fail , just to see Donald fail ? Would you rather have hostilities, confrontation and possibly a war , just to get a victory about a Trump failure?'

My point has always been that with a track history of making and breaking agreements over some 30 odd years, why anyone in their right mind would believe anything that NK  says. I have backed this up with facts and figures that have shown numerous commitments from NK in the past that have been agreed and then promptly reversed when they have got what they wanted. Trump has gone bowling in there with great aplomb to get a very vague agreement that does not commit NK to anything yet he proclaims it that NK is no longer a nuclear threat and insists 'everybody can now feel much safer'. That is just pure and utter fiction and is typical of how Trump goes about everything he does. He claims victory and a  complete u-turn from NK without a single thing actually being done by them other than releasing a few prisoners and shutting down a nuclear test site that was falling down anyway.

Rather than you agreeing to be sceptical, your stance has always been that despite decades of taking the p*ss, NK is now going to do the right thing and hand over the only thing that keeps everyone scared of them. I don't believe this to be true believing the past is a good indicator of the future. You on the other hand think it's all hunky dory now because your beloved Trump says so.  

That sir is delusional.