Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[ellisg]

Nothing special to add except an observation of how the longest posts on this thread without doubt are by Christians "spreading the word", so by my count it's still Christians 1, other's 0. You can't stop them guys, just wave bye bye when they come knocking. I certainly agree with one of the posters that if going to heaven means listening to celestial music and having to put up with all these holier than thou types then I prefer to spend an eternity in hel_l with my mates

[garro]

Some of you (or perhaps many) will be glad to hear that this is probably my last post in this thread.

I am due to be married in a couple of days and need to hit Bangkok to finish some paper work.

This thread has definitely been a learning experience for me and perhaps I have been a bit intolerant myself.

Maybe next time it would be better to keep my concerns to myself and I will think twice next time I feel like introducing such a controversial topic.

Metta

Edited February 5, 2007 by garro

[toptuan]

I didn't say it, HL Mencken said it...

Oh, so let me get this straight. You quoted him because you disagreed with him? Strange. Isn't that a bit of an odd reason to quote someone without overtly stating your opposite view? Doesn't even come close to your own position? What's your point here?

"Sabaijai" is my surname, not my state of mind ...

Yes, this is quite obvious (the latter phrase)

[svenivan]

No Metta,

Your post that started this topic was spot on. I hope you keep on posting!

And I wish you a happy marriage and a good life!

svenivan

[toptuan]

Some of you (or perhaps many) will be glad to hear that this is probably my last post in this thread.

I am due to be married in a couple of days and need to hit Bangkok to finish some paper work.

This thread has definitely been a learning experience for me and perhaps I have been a bit intolerant myself.

Maybe next time it would be better to keep my concerns to myself and I will think twice next time I feel like introducing such a controversial topic.

Metta

Quite the contrary. You see these 19 pages, all the postings, all the views? Keep stirring the pot! That's what makes TV so successful! Can't wait for your next topic!

P.S. Congratulations by the way. May you have many happy, blissful, wedded years ahead with your new spouse.

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[sceadugenga]

My girlfriends response was that Thailand has been a Buddhist country long before foreigners ever came here...

I agree with you that this is a disgusting approach by Christian preachers. However, your girlfriend's rebuttal was pretty weak. Every religion* including Buddhism, was brought here by foreigners. Instead of her knowledge of Thai history, her xenophobia glaringly came through.

*with the exception of upcountry spiritual animism, which hardly qualifies as an "organized" religion.

True, but Thailand probably had an organized religion while your ancestors were running around wearing blue paint.

[toptuan]

My girlfriends response was that Thailand has been a Buddhist country long before foreigners ever came here...

I agree with you that this is a disgusting approach by Christian preachers. However, your girlfriend's rebuttal was pretty weak. Every religion* including Buddhism, was brought here by foreigners. Instead of her knowledge of Thai history, her xenophobia glaringly came through.

*with the exception of upcountry spiritual animism, which hardly qualifies as an "organized" religion.

True, but Thailand probably had an organized religion while your ancestors were running around wearing blue paint.

Good try, but my ancestors were the Cherokee tribe of the American Indians, worshipping the Great White Father-Spirit with an organized litany and rituals. (You'd be especially impressed with "The Booger Dance.")

And the paint was red. Thank you.

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[gburns57au]

My girlfriends response was that Thailand has been a Buddhist country long before foreigners ever came here...

I agree with you that this is a disgusting approach by Christian preachers. However, your girlfriend's rebuttal was pretty weak. Every religion* including Buddhism, was brought here by foreigners. Instead of her knowledge of Thai history, her xenophobia glaringly came through.

*with the exception of upcountry spiritual animism, which hardly qualifies as an "organized" religion.

True, but Thailand probably had an organized religion while your ancestors were running around wearing blue paint.

mmmm...Christianity....just over 2000 years....Buddhism....2550 years...what can be said ??

Where did Christianity start ??? somewhere in the Middle East wasnt it....that predominately Jewish place called Israel....Or was it Palestine....Since when was it a solely Western religion.....???

What is the Muslim mantra.....God is great and Mohammed is his prophet....is this so different to "In God we trust" or the RC,s being reverential of the "Holy Virgin"

We as frail human beings must have something to believe in...Why ??....cant we believe in ourselves ??...No we cant...because as frail Humans we have to have something else to absolve or justify us when we are wrong or do what is against the usual order of life.

But the biggest failing we have in life is Hypocracy, The Alcoholics and druggies, the fallen Angels, the socially inept, the pure evil people who say.....I was saved by God and now I must do my work so that others will not fall by the wayside...

These are people that didnt have the self will and self respect to drag themselves out of their gloom...nothing wrong with that....they found a group of people who helped them to do what they couldnt do themselves...nothing wrong with that either....But it wasnt God that did it was it ??

It was a Religious support group....could have been from any religion really...because this person wanted a change and didnt know how to change...someone comes along and says..."look at our lives, isnt that so much better than yours" What can the poor lost soul say... ???

And there is nothing wrong with that either....

But to accredit it to this God fellow is ridiculous....give the due where it lays and that is with the Support group that helped you to change..whether it was a Hindi, Muslim, Anglican, Buddhist group or whatever.

And also to try and convince the vunerable to your way of life especially when it against the traditions and cultural aspect of the persons life is reprehensible, same as the Christian groups who moved in after the Tsunami and offered help if people converted...but to bribe kids with whatever to try and convert them is more than reprehensible....

Leave the kids alone so that they can grow to make their own decisions when thay are old enough to understand.

[toptuan]

Leave the kids alone so that they can grow to make their own decisions when thay are old enough to understand.

If you followed that philosophy to its logical end, in every area of your kids' upbringing, they'd probably be dead before puberty.

Any parent worth their salt should be just as interested in a kid's spiritual growth as well as their mental, physical, and emotional growth. If you believe in a holistic view of what comprises a human being, it's illogical for a parent to ignore any major segement of that person's being.

**************************************

...and yes, I AM aware of the unstated assumptions in my above words. If man is merely the product of evolution, without a soul, spirit--thus without any accountability to a Creator--then I'm with you, Gburns.

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[sceadugenga]

My girlfriends response was that Thailand has been a Buddhist country long before foreigners ever came here...

I agree with you that this is a disgusting approach by Christian preachers. However, your girlfriend's rebuttal was pretty weak. Every religion* including Buddhism, was brought here by foreigners. Instead of her knowledge of Thai history, her xenophobia glaringly came through.

*with the exception of upcountry spiritual animism, which hardly qualifies as an "organized" religion.

True, but Thailand probably had an organized religion while your ancestors were running around wearing blue paint.

Good try, but my ancestors were the Cherokee tribe of the American Indians, worshipping the Great White Father-Spirit with an organized litany and rituals. (You'd be especially impressed with "The Booger Dance.")

And the paint was red. Thank you.

"It looks like the Cherokee first settled in southeastern North American between A.D. 1000 and 1500, probably around 1300. The 240 period from then until de Soto made contact with the tribe in 1540 might be described as a formative one, during which the Cherokees established themselves in their new home an began to shape their civilization. "

Nice site, nice try.

The Thais were recording their culture a long time before that, sorry about the paint color but you never know, one of your ancestors may have been a Brit.

Edited February 5, 2007 by sceadugenga

[toptuan]

"It looks like the Cherokee first settled in southeastern North American between A.D. 1000 and 1500...

The Thais were recording their culture a long time before that, sorry about the paint color but you never know, one of your ancestors may have been a Brit.

OK, give or take 1,200 years, my dates didn't quite mesh with the advent of Buddhism in Thailand (2nd century BC). Nevertheless, I'm still quite proud of my 1/8 indian blood. (25% British ancestry, but I won't bring that up here).

However, I think you've missed my point, and I was being too obtuse about it, myself:

Buddhism was brought here by foreigners. And if the early Thai were just as xenophobic as our poster's girlfriend, Thailand could easily have become just as Christian as the Philippines if some Dutch, Spanish, or British explorer had gotten here first.

To exclude or look down on other religions because they are "foreign" is to exclude Hinduism and Buddhism from SE Asia as well. And, in your thinking, if the issue is "Who got there first," then your argrument sounds about as strong as a petulant child who claims preimminence because "I got in line first." (I know that argument doesn't even work in a Thai 7-11 ! ) Following your argument to its logical conclusion, then let's throw out all the Johnny-come-lately-"isms" and tell the Thai to be satisfied with the rock and tree spirits (then we can pre-date things a few MORE thousand years to make you happy!)

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[gburns57au]

Leave the kids alone so that they can grow to make their own decisions when thay are old enough to understand.

If you followed that philosophy to its logical end, in every area of your kids' upbringing, they'd probably be dead before puberty.

Any parent worth their salt should be just as interested in a kid's spiritual maturation as well as their social, physical, and emotional growth.

I agree with the second and not the first....

We get our values from where ??? Our parents and peers....there is nothing wrong with children following their parents values while they are growing up...that is the way of all cultures...even the Christian one.

Until a child has reached an age where they can make an informed decision to break from their upbringing, then they should be left alone....to bribe young children who havent got a lot of life experience to convert from what is their culture is morally and should be legally wrong....To try and convert people who have suffered trauma is also morally wrong....and yet these Christian groups amongst others, do that on a regular basis....I do object to people that target vunerable groups for their own self interests.

Is a group who try and change a child spiritually any different from a group who try and change a child sexually.....it is abuse in both scenarios.

Your comment...."Any parent worth their salt should be just as interested in a kid's spiritual maturation as well as their social, physical, and emotional growth."

That is so true....And of course Buddhist parents do this as much as Christian parents do...Or are you saying that a Buddhist who brings his child up as a Buddhist is less of a parent then a Christian parent is ???

You edited it while I was writing....not fair....

So you are with me then....because thats what I believe....man is a creation of evolution and is not accountable to a God of any kind.

However I believe that Buddhism has a fine philosophy toward life.

Edited February 5, 2007 by gburns57au

[HenryB]

We need more Christian Missionaries and Muslim Iman working together to clean up the Evil Pattaya.

[toptuan]

Your comment...."Any parent worth their salt should be just as interested in a kid's spiritual maturation as well as their social, physical, and emotional growth."

That is so true....And of course Buddhist parents do this as much as Christian parents do...Or are you saying that a Buddhist who brings his child up as a Buddhist is less of a parent then a Christian parent is ???

Not at all. I would expect any concerned and responsible parent to rear their child spiritually according to their own values and beliefs, whether Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, or other. To do less, is to renig on their parental responsibilities.

Remember, those kids who you are so concerned about being "bribed" by the foreign missionaries, go right back home under Buddhist Mom and Dad's roof at the end of the day--which is probably why Thailand remains 99% Buddhist to this day. So again, I ask, what's the panic? What's the harm done?

[toptuan]

We need more Christian Missionaries and Muslim Iman working together to clean up the Evil Pattaya.

...chuckle. Let's add to that...an uncorrupt police force!

(Moderators: PLEASE don't move to Pattaya forum!).

[toptuan]

You edited it while I was writing....not fair....

...and darn it, they stop you from editing after 30 minutes, too!

So you are with me then....because thats what I believe....man is a creation of evolution and is not accountable to a God of any kind.

...you missed the little word...two letters...but, oh, so important: "IF."

I purposely left my position ambiguous to make my point that my argument holds no water if evolution is our origin. IF I try to show intellectual respect for thinking at both ends of the spectrum.

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[HenryB]

We need more Christian Missionaries and Muslim Iman working together to clean up the Evil Pattaya.

...chuckle. Let's add to that...an uncorrupt police force!

(Moderators: PLEASE don't move to Pattaya forum!).

When the terrible business of Pattaya closes we would not drugs to fight Aids.

Please do it yourself. No aids

[gburns57au]

Your comment...."Any parent worth their salt should be just as interested in a kid's spiritual maturation as well as their social, physical, and emotional growth."

That is so true....And of course Buddhist parents do this as much as Christian parents do...Or are you saying that a Buddhist who brings his child up as a Buddhist is less of a parent then a Christian parent is ???

Not at all. I would expect any concerned and responsible parent to rear their child spiritually according to their own values and beliefs, whether Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, or other. To do less, is to renig on their parental responsibilities.

Remember, those kids who you are so concerned about being "bribed" by the foreign missionaries, go right back home under Buddhist Mom and Dad's roof at the end of the day--which is probably why Thailand remains 99% Buddhist to this day. So again, I ask, what's the panic? What's the harm done?

It is not the harm that is done...but the potential harm....Christian beliefs state that if you dont follow God and the Christian way then you will burn in He11 for eternity...to an vunerable child for whom 5 years is a long time then eternity is a long long time indeed.

Now this child hears this from some missionary...goes home and says to Dad and Mom...."I dont want you to burn forever"...How does Dad or Mom explain this...Especially when the child has been taught that it is what you do in this life that determines your next life.

Now that child has conflict that did not exist before.

Where is the harm....there it is right there.

[toptuan]

Missionaries bribing children --> cleaning up Pattaya --> war on aids. Is this thread getting far afield again?

[gburns57au]

You edited it while I was writing....not fair....

...and darn it, they stop you from editing after 30 minutes, too!

So you are with me then....because thats what I believe....man is a creation of evolution and is not accountable to a God of any kind.

...you missed the little word...two letters...but, oh, so important: "IF."

I purposely left my position ambiguous to make my point that my argument holds no water if evolution is our origin. IF I try to show intellectual respect for thinking at both ends of the spectrum.

IF....implies doubt...so you are not sure then ???

[Ulysses G.]

It is not the harm that is done...but the potential harm....Christian beliefs state that if you dont follow God and the Christian way then you will burn in He11 for eternity...to an vunerable child for whom 5 years is a long time then eternity is a long long time indeed.

Where is the harm....there it is right there.

I was brought up as a Christian, but as soon as I was grown up enough to examine what I was told logically, most of it seemed silly to me, however, because it was one of the first things that was ever said to me repeatedly, I can't ever get it out of my head, that if I am wrong I will be torured and tormented in he11 forever and ever with no reprieve from that "loving God".

Forever is a long time.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[toptuan]

Now this child hears this from some missionary...goes home and says to Dad and Mom...."I dont want you to burn forever"...How does Dad or Mom explain this...Especially when the child has been taught that it is what you do in this life that determines your next life.

Now that child has conflict that did not exist before.

Where is the harm....there it is right there.

Instead of seeing it as "harm" I see it as an opportunity for a parent to further the spiritual and mental growth of their child. A good parent will seize the opportunity, and talk it out.

Especially in this day and time of the "global village" with internet, ease of travel, etc., you cannot shield children from other veins of thinking--whether it be religious, political, moral or other. Putting mental blinders on them until they reach 10 or 12 (or later) not only is unrealistic, it's mentally crippling.

I remember at the age of seven, after I spent a weekend with Mormon relatives, I came home with all kinds of questions: "Mom, why does Aunt J__ wear holy underwear? Did you know Joseph Smith got heavenly truth from a salamander? Why can't black people be priests in their church?" etc., etc. It took about a week or two for my non-mormon parents to "de-brief" me and talk it out. My first education about "other religions." A priceless learning moment.

I think we should give kids and parents more credit for being able to handle things like this.

[Badbanker]

On Supposed Christian Fundamentalism!

The basis for all of Christianity is the fact that we are to emulate Christ in our thoughts and actions. Sadly, I do not see in any of the New Testament, that Christ or any of his followers FORCED anyone to become Christians. He did encourage them strongly but there was no inquisition.

A couple of hundred years later though, I think it was Constantine the first Real Pope who it seems started to force (decreed) people to follow his version of a pseudo Christianity that had evloved from paganism, which as we all now know evolved into Catholicism.

As (dare I use this ugly word) what was then (2-300 AD) considered religion evolved into a world of Catholicism the whole world was forced to embrace. After 1300 years of hel_l, this religion of course was started to be demolished by the early reformers who reacted negatively reflecting the peoples pain with the lot that they had been forced to accept. (Luther and his ilk)!

Sadly modern day fundamentalism has become a pseudo form of Christianity and this has given a bad name to the word religious. I am not religious at all and I think if you read the Bible, you will find that Jesus was also not religious AT ALL! Christ was about caring for people and no he did not have a girlfriend. (amazing what Hollywood does to muddy the real picture)

It is a shame that we can't rehabilitate the good word "religious", but as I am sure you all understand, I believe it is past being rehabilitated as it has been linked to such abuse for centuries.

What ever your slant on religion you would be wrong to listen to any other voice than your concience to guide you into your destiny. If you really look with an unbiased point at your theological/choice of religious leaning and see if it really works for you, I thank God for you.

Jesus said in the Bible that He has other people aside from those being Christian that He considers are His. This is startling to many people but it is true. (email me privately if you want a Bible reference)

As a Christian I have no choice but to follow my conscience and as this is what my study and my particular point of view forces me to do. Do I go out handing out flyers on the street? NO I don't see Christ wanting me to do that! I do hope that people see in me someone that has something that they respect and want to find out more about.

If people ask me why I am like I am, I will be happy to tell them about my relationship with Christ. Many have! Force it down their necks? NO WAY!

Be yourself in Christ!

Badbanker

Cathedral

by Crosby, Stills & Nash (Graham Nash)

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!

Too many people have lied in the name of Christ, (religion)

For anyone to heed the call

So many people have died in the name of Christ, (religion)

That I can't believe it all

[banchang]

It is not the harm that is done...but the potential harm....Christian beliefs state that if you dont follow God and the Christian way then you will burn in He11 for eternity...to an vunerable child for whom 5 years is a long time then eternity is a long long time indeed.

Where is the harm....there it is right there.

I was brought up as a Christian, but as soon as I was grown up enough to examine what I was told logically, most of it seemed silly to me, however, because it was one of the first things that was ever said to me repeatedly, I can't ever get it out of my head, that if I am wrong I will be torured and tormented in he11 forever and ever with no reprieve from that "loving God".

Forever is a long time.

Children should be kept well away from religion, There is no such thing as a christian child ,buddhist child ,muslim child. They are just children and infecting them with religious mind virus is child abuse if the worst kind. Yes even worse than sexual abuse.

[toptuan]

[quote

IF....implies doubt...so you are not sure then ???

Intentional ambiguity: Kinda like a rhetorical question, to make a point. Sorry to throw ya there, buddy!

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[toptuan]

[quote

I was brought up as a Christian....if I am wrong...Forever is a long time.

So, why don't you consider Pascal's Wager? What could you lose?

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[toptuan]

Children should be kept well away from religion...infecting...mind virus...abuse...sexual abuse.

No bias there!

[gburns57au]

It is not the harm that is done...but the potential harm....Christian beliefs state that if you dont follow God and the Christian way then you will burn in He11 for eternity...to an vunerable child for whom 5 years is a long time then eternity is a long long time indeed.

Where is the harm....there it is right there.

I was brought up as a Christian, but as soon as I was grown up enough to examine what I was told logically, most of it seemed silly to me, however, because it was one of the first things that was ever said to me repeatedly, I can't ever get it out of my head, that if I am wrong I will be torured and tormented in he11 forever and ever with no reprieve from that "loving God".

Forever is a long time.

Sort of makes my point does it not ??

[Ulysses G.]

So, why don't you consider Pascal's Wager? What could you lose?

I do believe in God. The problem is that I don't believe in Christianity or any other organized religion - other than perhaps Buddhism (which is more of a philosophy).

Assumes Christianity is the only religion which makes such a claim

The wager, out of context, assumes that Christianity is the only religion which claims that a person will be judged, condemned, and punished by God if that person does not believe. However, there are other religions which also claim that God will judge, condemn, and punish people who do not believe in him and their religion. They include Islam, and some, but not all, denominations of Hinduism.

Therefore, if one claims that others should believe in Christianity (or any other religion), solely for the possibility of being punished for not believing in it, then what would one say about other religions which make such a claim?

Even without similar claims from other religions, we can still find indefinitely many other possibilities offering eternal bliss and threatening eternal torment. For example, some unknown non-Christian gods might exist, and punish Christian believers for their failure to believe in them. Or some powerful entity might decide to punish those who believe in a god while rewarding non-believers.

In this way, Pascal's Wager can be used to deduce that it is advisable to believe in any or all of a variety of gods. However, the beliefs and claims of many separate religions have mutual exclusivity to each other. This means that they cannot both be true, or at least not both be the "one true religion". Complicating matters further, the belief systems of monotheistic religions require exclusive belief in the god of that religion, so the Wager is invalid when applied to such religions.

[gburns57au]

Instead of seeing it as "harm" I see it as an opportunity for a parent to further the spiritual and mental growth of their child. A good parent will seize the opportunity, and talk it out.

Especially in this day and time of the "global village" with internet, ease of travel, etc., you cannot shield children from other veins of thinking--whether it be religious, political, moral or other. Putting mental blinders on them until they reach 10 or 12 (or later) not only is unrealistic, it's mentally crippling.

I remember at the age of seven, after I spent a weekend with Mormon relatives, I came home with all kinds of questions: "Mom, why does Aunt J__ wear holy underwear? Did you know Joseph Smith got heavenly truth from a salamander? Why can't black people be priests in their church?" etc., etc. It took about a week or two for my non-mormon parents to "de-brief" me and talk it out. My first education about "other religions." A priceless learning moment.

I think we should give kids and parents more credit for being able to handle things like this.

The problem is...it can be talked out to an extent....but the seed is there planted by people who have an agenda.....the child who is terrified that its parents will burn in He11...will have that thought, as you did, for the rest of their lives...Why should a child of maybe 6 or 7 years old have this conflict that has been brought about by strangers...

It can be talked out but in reality the vision the child sees in its minds eye of its parents burning in he11 will not dissipate that quickly.