Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[toptuan]

I was brought up as a Christian, but as soon as I was grown up enough to examine what I was told logically, most of it seemed silly to me, however, because it was one of the first things that was ever said to me repeatedly, I can't ever get it out of my head, that if I am wrong I will be torured and tormented in he11 forever and ever with no reprieve from that "loving God".

Forever is a long time.

Sort of makes my point does it not ??

Thai Buddhist parents scare the crap outta their kids with stories of ghosts at the Wat, be good or you'll come back as a leech, don't lie or some horrible accident will befall you (Karma gone amuck)....etc.

So, let's throw out ALL religion---and just let our kids live amoral lives until they are hardened in their selfish ways by 12 or 13 yrs. old!

Great idea!

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[sceadugenga]

Missionaries bribing children --> cleaning up Pattaya --> war on aids. Is this thread getting far afield again?

You're the one who brought up Cherokee Indians.

At least we got them to lighten up a bit.

[gburns57au]

Thai Buddhist parents scare the crap outta their kids with stories of ghosts at the Wat, be good or you'll come back as a leech, don't lie or some horrible accident will befall you (Karma gone amuck)....etc.

So, let's throw out ALL religion---and just let our kids live amoral lives until they are hardened in their selfish ways by 12 or 13 yrs. old!

Great idea!

Christian parents scare the bejesus out of their kids with burning in he11 forever...and that is what they believe...values given to them by their parents...do this and you will be ok...do this and you will fry....this is the framework that all kids usually grow up by...even the Muslim kids...Parents use fear to control all the time..."wait till your Dad gets home" etc...

However it is not the realm of a group of people outside of the childs culture and traditions to come in and tell the child that the parents are wrong and that the child will gain redemption if they follow that groups way of thinking.

Let the kids live normal (not amoral) lives by the values of their parents until they can make an informed and mature decision.

[toptuan]

The problem is...it can be talked out to an extent....but the seed is there planted by people who have an agenda.....the child who is terrified that its parents will burn in He11...will have that thought, as you did, for the rest of their lives...Why should a child of maybe 6 or 7 years old have this conflict that has been brought about by strangers...

It can be talked out but in reality the vision the child sees in its minds eye of its parents burning in he11 will not dissipate that quickly.

Really good point. In my opinion, any Christian who uses He11 as their main club over the heads of the unconverted tries to lead people to God out of fear. Frankly, IMHO, this tactic produces Christians with very shallow foundations. As soon as they can later rationalize away their fear or punishment, they easily chuck their religion into the trash bin.

There are four basic motivations for why people do things (in a popular order of "value," with the best at the top):

• love
  
• promise of reward
  
• duty
  
• fear of punishment
  

Many Christians (and scoffers) by-pass the top three (which the Bible is FULL of as preferred sources of motivation), and go right for the jugular--fear of punishment.

It's a distorted view of Christianity and the Bible, in my opinion. And, it serves well the arguments of the naysayers.

Edited February 5, 2007 by toptuan

[toptuan]

Missionaries bribing children --> cleaning up Pattaya --> war on aids. Is this thread getting far afield again?

You're the one who brought up Cherokee Indians.

At least we got them to lighten up a bit.

Guilty as charged!

[gburns57au]

The problem is...it can be talked out to an extent....but the seed is there planted by people who have an agenda.....the child who is terrified that its parents will burn in He11...will have that thought, as you did, for the rest of their lives...Why should a child of maybe 6 or 7 years old have this conflict that has been brought about by strangers...

It can be talked out but in reality the vision the child sees in its minds eye of its parents burning in he11 will not dissipate that quickly.

Really good point. In my opinion, any Christian who uses He11 as their main club over the heads of the unconverted tries to lead people to God out of fear. Frankly, IMHO, this tactic produces Christians with very shallow foundations. As soon as they can later rationalize away their fear or punishment, they easily chuck their religion into the trash bin.

There are four basic motivations for why people do things (in a popular order of "value," with the best at the top):

• love
  
• promise of reward
  
• duty
  
• fear of punishment
  

Many Christians (and scoffers) by-pass the top three (which the Bible is FULL of as preferred sources of motivation), and go right for the jugular--fear of punishment.

It's a distorted view of Christianity and the Bible, in my opinion. And, it serves well the arguments of the naysayers.

Say no more.....

[banchang]

Children should be kept well away from religion...infecting...mind virus...abuse...sexual abuse.

No bias there!

What do you mean? dose holding a point of view make me bias?

[banchang]

As for pascals wager , imagine getting to the pearly gates and meeting Thor with his big hammer.

Oops picked the wrong one!!

[Johpa]

How about we stay on track - the thread started out as an observation of the manipulation by so-called christians of certain elements of Thai people.

All the bible quoting from the "bible-bashers" and the criticism of the Americans doesn't change the fact that many so-called christians are only interested in winning converts at any cost and to the detriment of many.

I was fortunate or was it unfortunate some years back to be in group undertaking some training in teaching English language where 6 "born-again christians" were attending - their sole aim was to get an insight into teaching methods of teaching Thais. It was interesting to see that although they seemsed to be versed in their own religion ther were completely and utterly ignorant of the Buddhist philosophy - and were not in the least ashamed of their ingorance.

So it would seem that their only goal was to "convert" the unbelievers and save them from h_ell, nothing to do with improving their lives when it came to surviving.

For many Evangelicals, a peculiar flavor of Christianity indeed, it is not the heathen that they wish to save but themselves. They see the salvation of a heathen mind as a point in their favor towards reward in some future heaven of the Almighty, not all that dissimilar to the Muslim sacrificing himself for a reward of many virgins in heaven. And it is not really an improvement in this life that motivates them to convert "the other" but, in their eschatology, they are saving them from the consequences of Puragtory. So their action have little to do with improving lives, as that is not the point.

I find it rare for the Evangelicals, especially the Thai evanagelicals, who have the zealotry of the converted, to speak rationally about their own religious beliefs. My experience is that they are little versed in their own religion apart from having memorized some stock biblical quotations, so how would one expect them to be versed in Buddhism.

[qwertz]

I can't help thinking as a religious sceptic, that the major religions were set up by men for men and have a male image to be worshipped. Why? Were they perhaps afraid of giving women a say in things? Like, "Going out and killing masses of people is not sensible behaviour" or "You take care of the kids for a while, I'm off to work". Or "When are you going to iron my skirt?" Not that I'm complaining while things are tilted in my favour. Can't help thinking though, what if, how would the world have turned out?

P.S. to any ladies out there, hope this is PC, not wishing to offend.

[Brother_Tony]

The Lord Jesus Christ says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14). No matter how you look at it, whether you are in favour of it or not, the gospel of the kingdom is preached in all the world as a witness unto all nations. You may not believe in the gospel, but it is preached unto you as a witness; therefore, you are without excuse.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16). And this is the gospel: "...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (I Corinthians 15:3-4).

[banchang]

Brother Tony you dont realy belive all that is writen in that book do you? Would you like me to find some quotes that make your god out to be the most homophobic genocidele child abuseing monster that has ever (lived) Here is a nice Quote from the jolly guy in the sky.. He who has damaged rocks or a severed peines will not enter the kingdom of heaven.... yes it realy dose say that in the bible! nice guy he loves us all!

[banchang]

As Voltaire said:

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."

[Xangsamhua]

As Voltaire said:

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."

All sorts of things began at that point, I expect, including politics and any kind of social organisation. Religions have appealed to people's need for faith and identity. Where they've gone wrong, I'd suggest, is in their treatment of unbelievers and critics. They show themselves to be very human institutions then. Perhaps religion is like fire - a good servant, but a bad master. When religion gets taken up by the political authorities it becomes the latter. It doesn't help if it's locked into a sacred text that can't be interrogated. I can't see religion disappearing though; people still want to share their beliefs and hopes.

[Smilodon]

For those who don't know the concept of money as reflected in the Bible:

I know that the Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. The root is the original source, and that from which something draws life.

The first one to sin was Satan, "they" filled the midst of him with violence because of the multitude of his merchandise.

Merchandise is not an abstract thought. It means loot, booty, swag, goodies, stuff of value.

Considering heaven has transparent gold, foundations of precious stones, etc, and these are literal, or it would have said they were figurative somehow, in the pre-Adamic angelic whatever it was "kingodom" comes to mind, but no one is listed as being king of angels. Arachangels, Seraphs, Cherubs, and other creatures are mentioned, however.

In that pre-Adamic time, since the love of money is the root of all evil, then it had to be the sin Satan sinned first. This being the case, it can't be that there was no money for him to love.

Just because heaven and its denizens operate on a higher speed than we do (speed of light and beyond) does not mean that they don't have physical, literal THINGS. When God said "let there be light" it became the border between the spirit world and the physical world. Perhaps this is why though hel_l is in the center of the Earth, because no matter where you go on Earth, it is "down" and that can only happen if it is at the middle, perhaps that is why physically, the earth is perceived as having a core of molten nickel, but spiritually, it has open spaces, fires, dark caverns that house the damned. hel_l is a physical, spiritual reality, thus it is up above that light limit where we can perceive it. Jesus is in heaven, physically, in a glorified but still physical body. Enoch, whom God took, and Elijah. They aren't walking around on spooky ghost streets. They are walking on solid, firm physical reality.

Money existed, because of the multitude of his merchandise did "they" fill the midst of (then-) Lucifer with violence. Merchandise is specifically stuff that has monetary value, otherwise it is called refuse or rubbish. And you can't have something with monetary value without money. God could have said "because of the multitude of thy gold, jewels, possessions...whatever..." But he said "merchandise" And the only reason to use that word is because monetary value was attached to it. Something does not become merchandise until someone values it enough to pay for it. Elephant doodoo out in the African savannah is not merchandise. Ivory is.

Webster's:

Merchandise: [n] the commodities or goods that are bought and sold in business

There has been money around long before man. And the love of it is the root of all evil.

[Insult erased. Please attempt to debate without these kinds of statements. /Meadish]

[jdinasia]

Yes jdinasia, this is not Hawaii and it is not long ago. It is Thailand and it is happening today. And it is happening to the hilltribes in Thailand.

So what are the missionaries doing up in the mountains in the hilltribe villages?

They are doing the same as they are doing in Phitsanalok, they are aiming on the small children, they start with singing and playing and giving gifts.

Then they tell them no to wear their traditional clothes because this is no good and they are no good Christians.

They tell the small children that their parents are bad people because they are following their traditions with their songs and dancing, swings and whatever. And they tell the children that their parents will end up in hel_l and will burn forever.

Many old hilltribe villages are divided in two villages these days with two headmen etc. One Christian and one old traditional one.

And in the Christian part they are not allowed to follow any of their old traditions.

This is really damaging for these people because in their traditions is also all common knowledge how to handle different situations.

So the missionaries do the same thing today in Thailand to the hilltribes as they did in Hawaii many years ago.

But Christians and I think the ones from US are the worst, look down on all people with other religion. Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist?

Missionaries Suck!

Kick them out of Thailand!

Regards

svenivan

That is a pretty funny post! You managed to not only slam Christians but also Americans

(you will note that earlier in this thread I did mention that the hilltribes were the only groups of people that missionalries were having success with. Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand) But feel free to keep those huge chips on your shoulders ... having 2 of them like that probably keep you from falling over

Yes, you must be one of these Americans with BIG mouths and small ears. Never listen to what other people are saying, just shouting your own opinions. (I don't say ALL Americans are like that!!!!!)

And it doesn't matter if it is in a written forum. Cannot or will not try to understand how other people are thinking.

Did I see you answering any of my questions?

No, of course not. As long as you hear your own voice you are happy.

Yes, you tried to answere one of my questions.

"Not for the reasons you listed .. and not with the results you listed so inavvurately, but simply because the hilltribes are totally marginalized in Thailand"

You are probably sitting shouting somewhere in US and never been to Thailand, never been to the hilltribes villages, don't have a clue what is happening when the missionaries are coming.

I have never been able to have a discussion with one these Americans with BIG mouths and small ears. And those extreme Christians are the same. Cannot listen to arguments. Just go on shanting their passages from the bible.

But I have many American friends (the ones with working hearing) and we often have good discussions. Never any problems.

Maybe someone else would like to answere my questions? (I don't belive jdinasia can read so many words at same time and understand the question)

"Do you think that US would have bombed Vietnam and Laos as they did for years if they were bombing Christians?

And do you think that the Vietnamese people had welcome American tourists to their country after all these bombings with million of dead Vietnamese people if the Vietnamese people had been Christians and not Buddist? "

Have a good day!

svenivan

(still happy because I am in Thailand!)

LOL .. you rant and rant .. and make yourself look worse and worse

Any moderator can tell you exactly where I am

(did I respond to your anti-american rants about vietnam etc? no .. should I have? no ... I assume you are old enough to remember communism

I do see that people that don't share your narrow thoughts are invariably wrong .... but you are welcome to come down to Kamala anytime and discuss this IF you can refrain from being silly and calling people names

[Aujuba]

God and Satan are truly at battle here on TV. I'm just watching the show trying to figure out who's who. Even though the battle goes on Mother Nature calls. Where does she belong in this argument?

[gburns57au]

And here was me thinking this thread was about the systematic abuse of kids in a Thai village by bribing them to attend Christian teachings.

I must have missed the bit in the OP about Satan and God and money being the root of all evil....and the 7-11's in 2 million BC....

Edited February 6, 2007 by gburns57au

[banchang]

God and Satan are truly at battle here on TV. I'm just watching the show trying to figure out who's who. Even though the battle goes on Mother Nature calls. Where does she belong in this argument?

I think mother nature is on the side of science and is not ruled by bronze age sky gods.Hope you enjoyed your comfort break

[banchang]

Ok back to the OP but at a slite tangent if I may. Why dont Buddhist monks run childrens homes, they seem quite happy to take any stray dogs in but when it comes to sick kids with aids its left to Altruistic westeners to look after them? As the many donations from Pattaya folks to the kids home ,go to show.

[ellisg]

Anyone remotely interested in the effect of Christian missionaries on other cultures would be well advised to read a marvellous book by Sam Harris that has recently been published - http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nat...s/dp/0307265773.

In it he points out the simple fact that while there is no doubt that Christian missionaries are moved by a desire to alleviate suffering, they come to the task encumbered by a dangerous and divisive mythology. They waste a lot of time and money proselytizing to the needy; spreading inaccurate information about contraception and sexually transmitted diseases, and they withhold accurate information. In contrast to secular organisations like Doctors without borders who do not waste time telling people about the virgin birth of Jesus or that condom use is sinful (when millions die from AIDS every year). This kind of piety from missionaries is genocidal. We might also wonder which is more moral: helping people purely out of concern for their suffering, or helping them because you think the creator of the universe will reward you for it?

Mother Theresa is a perfect example of the way in which a good person can have her moral intuitions deranged by religious faith, as Christopher Hitchens puts it:

Mother Theresa was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.

Even in her Nobel Prize acceptance speach she said:

The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion...because if a mother can kill her own child - what is left for me to kill you and you kill me - there is nothing between.

As a diagosis of the world's problems, these remarks are astonishingly misguided. As a statement of morality they are no better. Mother Theresa's compassion was very badly calibrated if the killing of first-trimester fetuses disturbed her more than all the other suffering she witnessed on this earth. While abortion is an ugly reality one can reasonably wonder whether most fetuses suffer their distruction on any level. One cannot reasonably wonder this about the millions of men, women, and children who must endure the torments of war, famine, political torture, or mental illness. God is nowhere to be seen and the compassion of human beings is often hobbled by preposterous ideas about sin and salvation. If you are worried about human suffering, abortion should rank very low on your list of concerns.

Food for thought..and my apologies to the author for using portions of his book

[cmsally]

Something does not become merchandise until someone values it enough to pay for it. Elephant doodoo out in the African savannah is not merchandise. Ivory is.

You can actually turn elephant doo doo into paper giving it value and "voila" it becomes merchandise.

When I was a kid I used to sell horse "doo doo" to my mothers friends (avid gardeners) for pocket money.

Did my entrepeneurial spirit make me evil in that I coveted the money?

Many many things can be turned into money - just look at ebay; doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

But by your own argument the fact seems to be recognised that coveting wealth and possessions is wrong, much like the Buddhist concept of attachment.

This is precisely where we started off, in that to use poor (or poorer) peoples' natural inclination to covet (lets face it they are poor and would like more money/possessions) wealth is wrong.

The foundations of every belief system we have discussed here agree it is wrong to covet money /possessions so why is this concept being used to attract converts and change peoples belief systems?

[banchang]

Well said ellisg. Maybe I could recomend Richard Dawkins and the God delusion as another book that is well worth a read if you want to escape the shackles of religion.

[gburns57au]

Ok back to the OP but at a slite tangent if I may. Why dont Buddhist monks run childrens homes, they seem quite happy to take any stray dogs in but when it comes to sick kids with aids its left to Altruistic westeners to look after them? As the many donations from Pattaya folks to the kids home ,go to show.

Perhaps an understanding of Thai culture would serve you well....the problem people have is looking at Thailand from a Western perspective.

And I dont see how anyone can condone the bribing of children to try and convert them.

Christians here are bringing up all sorts of arguments to excuse the missionaries....but what would they say if the Jehovahs for instance offered their kids a free holiday to convert to Jehovah....I think that their response would be different.

Edited February 6, 2007 by gburns57au

[banchang]

Ok back to the OP but at a slite tangent if I may. Why dont Buddhist monks run childrens homes, they seem quite happy to take any stray dogs in but when it comes to sick kids with aids its left to Altruistic westeners to look after them? As the many donations from Pattaya folks to the kids home ,go to show.

Perhaps an understanding of Thai culture would serve you well....the problem people have is looking at Thailand from a Western perspective.

And I dont see how anyone can condone the bribing of children to try and convert them.

Christians here are bringing up all sorts of arguments to excuse the missionaries....but what would they say if the Jehovahs for instance offered their kids a free holiday to convert to Jehovah....I think that their response would be different.

I agree 100% with your second point . I do have a strong understanding of Thai culture and I do know the reason Buddhist people are like this. But that dosnt make it right and I think it is worth pointing these things out.

[Jimjim]

I have stopped at a Christian Church here in Chaiyaphum, but have been unable to get an answer to something I was wondering about. All these churches in Thailand seem to call themselves "Christian", with no additional reference to derivation. As if it is a generic term. I'd really like to know if these are mainstream Protestant and Catholic, or Mormons/Jehovah Witnesses. What about this aggressive one in Phitsanoluk?

Yes, there are all sorts of different Protestant and Catholic churches and even Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses in Thailand. There's even an Anglican church or two. I suppose there could be a few generic ones, which would be Protestant. We call those nondenominational. But most of the churches in Thailand have their roots in a specific denomination that sent its own missionaries here and many of them have headquarters in the country to watch over the Thai churches (or others in the region: Laos, Vietnam, Camodia) in their denomination.

[meadish_sweetball]

As Voltaire said:

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."

All sorts of things began at that point, I expect, including politics and any kind of social organisation. Religions have appealed to people's need for faith and identity. Where they've gone wrong, I'd suggest, is in their treatment of unbelievers and critics. They show themselves to be very human institutions then. Perhaps religion is like fire - a good servant, but a bad master. When religion gets taken up by the political authorities it becomes the latter. It doesn't help if it's locked into a sacred text that can't be interrogated. I can't see religion disappearing though; people still want to share their beliefs and hopes.

Two posts, and both make sense - it must be helpful to see in three directions at once, not to mention having three trunks to pick things up with. Keep up the good work. :D

[mumbojumbo]

All sorts of things began at that point, I expect, including politics and any kind of social organisation. Religions have appealed to people's need for faith and identity. Where they've gone wrong, I'd suggest, is in their treatment of unbelievers and critics. They show themselves to be very human institutions then. Perhaps religion is like fire - a good servant, but a bad master. When religion gets taken up by the political authorities it becomes the latter. It doesn't help if it's locked into a sacred text that can't be interrogated. I can't see religion disappearing though; people still want to share their beliefs and hopes.

As long as there are brain washers and stupid people, religion will exist.

[toptuan]

As long as there are brain washers and stupid people, religion will exist.

There are a lot of religious people who are members of this forum: Buddhists, Christians, Deists, etc. You have just inferred that theyare brain washers and stupid.

This is what our forum rules call "Flaming." Read 'em and clean up your act.

No I'm not a moderator nor a sub-moderator. Just a TV member who sees good reason behind the guidelines which govern this forum.

[meadish_sweetball]

Sorry, too many people just seem to be unable to debate this topic without declaring everyone who disagrees with their own 'enlightened' views being afflicted with some kind of defect. Several warnings already made, and more to come.

Meanwhile, the topic is closed.