Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[gummy]

This is probably not the most balanced forum to to be preaching the benefits of christianity, as many of us come from countries where it is endemic.

One of the many reasons we like Thailand is the different culture and attitude to life, this is steeped in dominant belief system. If it was just the weather I would move to tropical northern Australia, as there is far less aggravation from a new language, culture, and varying laws.

Many of us who have had christianity of is various forms rammed down our throats from a young age have very strong opinions of the organised church. Trying to justify the existence your your belief system to me is a waste of energy, so please desist. Please get back to the original topic.

How does this sect of christians justify the emotional blackmail they use to attract followers?

If as has been stated, the way is obvious to any who reads the story the religion is based, then give them a book when they are old enough to have self consciousness. Why are they not in their own backyards trying to prevent the onslaught of a different religion that is making inroads on their own patch.

Because they are mis-fits and failures in their own back yards

[fruittbatt]

fruittbatt:

> When they said "we are missionaries' I told them I was mighty sorry to hear that, since this is a Buddhist country.

Oh--THIS IS A BUDDHIST COUNTRY because . . . it IS. Why MUST that be, why must it be FOREVER, and what's SO MUCH BETTER about that, exactly?

fruittbatt:

> the morality of exporting institutional religion with a view to imposing it on a disadvantaged population which has its own philosophical/religious tradition

You mean, because philosophical/religions traditions imported from Khmer, Indian, Chinese, and other cultures are already being imposed on the disadvantaged population, it's immoral to propose others? How so?

sixpack, the Kingdom of Thailand does allow many religions to practise conversion openly. There is considerable freedom for Thais to choose religious affiliation in this country, which is brilliant.

The issue here is about the presumption of Judao-Christianity that its beliefs are superior, and that it has a divine right or duty to convert non-christians. When this missionary fervor is coupled with pressure or bribery in the form of material or social aid to disadvantaged minorities in exchange for conversion, we are not talking any longer about "freedom of choice" but rather about coercion and colonisation.

Edited February 3, 2007 by fruittbatt

[mark lamai]

hot topic , love it

belief = conflict

belief does not equal truth

most believers think their belief is a truth,

this is incorrect.

believers become very attached to their beliefs,

thus conflict can ensue when a belief is challenged.

so its all about "nothing",

since a belief is just that, nothing, it is not something that really exists.

political and religious believers are very dangerous people.

[cmsally]

Some "interesting" reasoning to explain the order on the religious hitlist.

OK so children not more in need of charity but "purer and easier to save".

So in other words selective or cost effective charity is being pursued.

The most gains from the least output. You have a budget but need a conversion rate for that budget.

Maximum conversion rate means efficiently run business and happy funders and well paid middle management.

Starting to look like a business , heh?

Whatever happened to charity, you gave because it was good to give and someone needed. You expected nothing in return.

Herein maybe lies the answer we need to separate charity from religion.

Then maybe we can achieve some clarity.

[sbk]

hot topic , love it

belief = conflict

belief does not equal truth

most believers think their belief is a truth,

this is incorrect.

believers become very attached to their beliefs,

thus conflict can ensue when a belief is challenged.

so its all about "nothing",

since a belief is just that, nothing, it is not something that really exists.

political and religious believers are very dangerous people.

Thats interesting, and in theory, I tend to agree with you, but then my grandmother (who was a devout 7th Day Adventist) went and proved me completely wrong about my preconceived notions regarding devout Christians.

I asked my mother once what my grandmother thought of the fact that my husband was Buddhist and not Christian. And my mother said that my grandmother was happy my husband had a belief system to fall back on if trouble came, it was me she was worried about, because I don't believe in anything!

I was flabbergasted, I assumed that she would disapprove of his Buddhism simply because he wasn't Christian.

[lannarebirth]

hot topic , love it

belief = conflict

belief does not equal truth

most believers think their belief is a truth,

this is incorrect.

believers become very attached to their beliefs,

thus conflict can ensue when a belief is challenged.

so its all about "nothing",

since a belief is just that, nothing, it is not something that really exists.

political and religious believers are very dangerous people.

Thats interesting, and in theory, I tend to agree with you, but then my grandmother (who was a devout 7th Day Adventist) went and proved me completely wrong about my preconceived notions regarding devout Christians.

I asked my mother once what my grandmother thought of the fact that my husband was Buddhist and not Christian. And my mother said that my grandmother was happy my husband had a belief system to fall back on if trouble came, it was me she was worried about, because I don't believe in anything!

I was flabbergasted, I assumed that she would disapprove of his Buddhism simply because he wasn't Christian.

I like that story. Alot of wisdom there.

[DirkGently]

I was walking with my isses when one of these people handed her a folded booklet with some Christian nonsense on the front. I took it and handed it back and said he should be ashamed of him self.

Several years ago I visited some Thai friends out of BKK (I forget the name of the town) and was introduced to a guy who was running a playschool for kids while their parents worked. The second thing out of this guys mouth was "do you find time for jesus in your life?". I said that was the last thing I needed and he was wasting his time on me.

Anyway, he went on to tell me what his sinister agenda was. To teach the kiddies the meaning of Christ blah blah and not to pray to HM as it was a false idol or somesuch rubbish.

I made my excuses and left. I did, however happen to pass on what he said to some of the people in that area. I understand he left.

It really sickens me to know that people try to crush another persons reasoning and attempt to instill some fancy notion of Jesus, who sat back through both world wars, and God, who was just a trifle too busy when the plague swept the world, when it really is about time we moved on from religion.

We moved on from worshipping trees and the sun and moon god and its about time we set this aside as just human folly.

[MrSnrang]

If you are not religious and able to live your life without religion, why would it matter if others have/have not/or change their religion. Religion would seem to have no value to you yourself, then the religion of others should not matter.

Because the ones with weak personalities are manipulated.

I go to a Christian school where they try to force you to believe in their ways and condemn you if you don't. They ###### you to hel_l, they do but not god. They incorporate Christian testimonies into your grades so you had better be a good actor if you want to maintain a good GPA, it doesn't matter if you're a crap student with no academic potential. If you're a gifted student who questions authority you might as well say goodbye to that 4.0 and scholarship. If you don't accept their beliefs you are slowly ostracized. There isn't just Jewish guilt, there's Christian guilt.

Some of my friends' families have been marred by Christian values and the 'duty' to save everyone around them from hel_l. They went to their parents and relatives and accused them of sinning and told them they would go to hel_l if they didn't become Christians.

I've seen the people who run some of these missions. They're like a cult, brainwashing children from ages as early as three to believe what they do.

[lannarebirth]

If you are not religious and able to live your life without religion, why would it matter if others have/have not/or change their religion. Religion would seem to have no value to you yourself, then the religion of others should not matter.

Because the ones with weak personalities are manipulated.

I go to a Christian school where they try to force you to believe in their ways and condemn you if you don't. They ###### you to hel_l, they do but not god. They incorporate Christian testimonies into your grades so you had better be a good actor if you want to maintain a good GPA, it doesn't matter if you're a crap student with no academic potential. If you're a gifted student who questions authority you might as well say goodbye to that 4.0 and scholarship. If you don't accept their beliefs you are slowly ostracized. There isn't just Jewish guilt, there's Christian guilt.

Some of my friends' families have been marred by Christian values and the 'duty' to save everyone around them from hel_l. They went to their parents and relatives and accused them of sinning and told them they would go to hel_l if they didn't become Christians.

I've seen the people who run some of these missions. They're like a cult, brainwashing children from ages as early as three to believe what they do.

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years, including a Jesuit run high school. I got a good education, the ability to think critically and IMO a good character. It's what allowed me to see that Buddhism, was for me, a better choice. IMO, you belittle the people you hope to pritect to insinuate they have no free will or ability to think. It's insulting.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to JSixpack for turning the tables and pointing out that Thailand is full of Buddhist missionaries who cleverly 'convert' almost all the infants born in Thailand into.....you guessed it. Not that there's necessarily anything right, wrong, good or bad about that. I am waiting to hear of some Buddhist monk who's climbing up the stairs of a wat, suddenly realizing we are saved by grace. Oh, that was Martin Luther, but there's always a chance for some Buddhist monk to reform the current abuses of Buddhism, which surely do make 'making merit' look like Tetzl's worst abuses of selling indulgences. Being Anabaptist, I never understood huge cathedrals with solid gold altars, or the endless stream of new wats being built in every tambon and amphur. Where does the money come from?

I went to the 'missionary church' recently (the one without air conditioning), and met the old man who came to Thailand when no Karen was Christian. I'm sure the missionaries made lots of mistakes (who doesn't; the old man lived through sea changes in missionary methods), and now there are lots of hill tribe people who voluntarily practice Christianity. Voluntarily. And it isn't that easy to become non-Buddhist in this country. I see Thai faces at the Catholic church, too. Oh, that church sponsors scholarships for hundreds of hill tribe students - should those scholarships be cancelled because they're Christian? And why do primary and secondary Thais need scholarships in the first place, to attend Thai government schools?

Organized religion was twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, who then become the instruments of inexcusable genocide. I just visited the killing fields of Cambodia - isn't that a Buddhist nation? I have a quote from a leading abbot of Vietnam, that taking part in warfare violates the teachings of the Lord Buddha. Anybody care to read it?

However: religion works for some of us who are educated, intelligent, sensible, and experienced. Faith works, better than what didn't work for us previously. Let's be respectfully critical of all faults in belief systems, including the system called atheism, but as Martin Luther often told the Anabaptists before he had them killed, let's not throw the baby out with the washwater.

[liberty9133]

Thanks for the reply. Before I became a Christian, I held beliefs similar to your own. I felt that Christians were, as you said, "closed minded". Many were also judgmental and unforgiving. Many still are. I lead a life of wine woman and song. Sex drugs and rock and roll. Get mine before you get it. Do unto others before they do it to you. It was Not a pretty picture. I was an alcoholic to boot. The truth of Jesus can only be found by an honest seeker of truth, not by those seeking an argument. Before I was saved, the words of the Bible sounded like nonsense. Now they have ever deeper meaning. Contrary to popular belief, there are and have been proofs, facts if you will for the foundation of our faith. Many of us are not unintelligent nor uneducated. To the contrary, the history of the Christian world is replete with leaders in every field who were/are also Christian. Without Christanity, for example, there would be no democracy like one finds throughout the world today. The men of faith who founded America and the American Revolution were to a man, men of faith. The greatest scientist of the world before the 20th century were men of faith. Sir Isaac Newton wrote more on his faith than he did on the laws of nature. I could go on to show you the difference Christianity has made in the world. There are several good books on the subject.

However, to give answer to your premise: If you knew what I know, you would believe as I do. Therefore, I invite you, as a seeker of truth, to write me so that we might begin an intelligent dialogue. The subject does not lend itself to a few quick lines here and there. Moreover, the consequences of failing here are too dire to chance to a gloss-over. I don't know the procedure, but I think you can go to my profile and send me a private message.

If the actions of the missionaries disturb you, then, at least, let me know how to contact them and get their side of the story. Condemnation without investigation is, at best, unfair. It is also anti-intellectual.

by the way, some haved suggested that missionaries get paid by the numbers or some other nefarious agenda is at work. Missionaries often are not paid, per se. Many use their own money. Some get a quite small stipend to cover the cost of living in a foreign country. Almost certainly, the young kids are here on their own or expenses paid by their home church. I have never met a rich missionary. I HAVE met many poor ones. Inaddition, I would like to lay to rest the notion that Christians NEED converts. We seek converts out of love and the fulfillment of our Lord's last command.

It hurts me to hear of all the Christian bashing on this post. We Christians, for the most part, are a loving and caring people. While there are misfits, cheats and emotionally disturbed individuals in any group, for the vast majority of Christians, it is our love that compels us to tell you about Jesus.

If you truly believed in the core of your mind AND heart that there is an everlasting destiny for you and everyone else on the planet and that the choices one makes here while alive affect what happens after you die, wouldn't you, out of love, warn those of the dangers of the wrong choice? Even the most callous and disreputable person would warn a pedestrian of an impending meet with death at the hands of a large truck barreling straight for him.

I challenge anyone who gives the story of Christ a good and honest read with even a skeptical mind will be shaken to his core. The proofs of Christ's ressurection are many. Of course you need some help with understanding and thus the missionary.

We believe that Christ created the universe and was God. We believe that because God loves everyone ever born, He was not willing to see anyone suffer through eternity in hel_l, he sent His only Son to save us from a horrible fate. We believe that he was born of a virgin having been supernaturally impregnated. That he was fully man and fully God. That he was crucified for no reason, totally innocent, never having sinned. That he was bodily resurrected. That he will reign both here on earth, soon, and in heaven forever. That his last command, while on earth, to believers was to go unto all the earth telling all who would believe and baptizing him in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is our personal and corporate responsibility to tell everyone, not just because of the command, but also because of the love we have for everyone.

Let no one tell you that they are sinless. Every Christian is as much a sinner as the non believer. The difference is that we have discovered the truth. I consider myself to be unbelievably lucky and blessed to find out this truth. When talking to others who believe as I, many of us have shed real tears when we consider those who have rejected Christ. We know for a fact what fate awaits them.

I cannot say whether the missionaries in this village are bribing or not. I would like to hear their side of the story before I condemn their actions. I think that only fair. I am certain that each of us share the belief that we are innoncent until proved guilty. Without hearing from the accused, no one should pass judgment. Therefore, I suggest to the poster, Garro, to show this forum to them and ask them to respond. I believe they will and we will all be surprised by the answer.

Liberty: it is precisely because of the arguement that you raise in your post that I would not confront this group; as I fear that a similar view as yours is likely to held by them. This view is completely closed minded and intolerant and does not allow for the possibility that other people could be right. Your post states as fact, things for which there is no evidence for but are merely matters of faith. Christianity is one of many belief systems, all of which deserve equal respect. Please remember the other peolpe of different faiths have just as stong convictions as you do.

I agree that many posters have expressed very negative attitudes towards Christianity but believe that this is due to negative experiences that they have experienced in their dealings with this religion. Many are likely to have come from Christian backgrounds but now feel let down by their childhood faith.

I do believe that religion is important but feel that it should be a personal issue. I am 100% committed to my Buddhist beliefs but would never try and push these beliefs on to anybody else and the same could be said for most Buddhists. I always allow for the possibility that I could be wrong and so respect other peoples views.

My concern is that the Christian group im my village could be taken advantage of the tolerant attitude of the local Buddhist population.

Liberty, I repect your right to believe what you want I only ask that you respect other peoples right to do the same.

Metta

[endure]

Organized religion was twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, who then become the instruments of inexcusable genocide. I just visited the killing fields of Cambodia - isn't that a Buddhist nation? I have a quote from a leading abbot of Vietnam, that taking part in warfare violates the teachings of the Lord Buddha. Anybody care to read it?

Violence occurs because of the fallibility of men and women but I don't ever recall a holy war being fought in the name of Buddhism.

[liberty9133]

Wars are fought by men. In the process of conducting the war, it usual and customary for each warring faction to call upon what ever deity, demi-god or demon they will for justification, protection and the victorious outcome. It is therefore not surprising that Christians and Buddhists have, in the past, done the same. However, to blame the deity for the acts of men is quite off the mark. No, blame men instead.

If you genuinely are interested in the proofs, of which there are many, of Jesus resurrection, please write me, as it is too long and requires an understanding of the history of the time and understanding of the culture of the time of Jesus the Christ. By the way, Saint Paul said that our entire faith rests upon the resurrection. That is, no resurrection, no religion, no god among us, no Jesus the Christ. Therefore, this is the central question: "Was there a resurrection?" I challenge you to seek the truth of the matter.

The proofs you mention regarding evolution, could easily be used to prove creation as well. I, while not an expert in biology, have read many treatises on the subject. In as much as there is no proof of evolution, per se(no eyewitnesses), then some measure of faith is required to believe in evolution. It may surprise you to know that there are many Christian biologist, PHD's, who accept creation and not evolution. Recently, we had a debate at one of our local universities between a creationist and an evolutionist, both with very good academic credentials. The upshot of the debate was that, for every so called proof of evollution, it could be used for a proof of creation. The laws of the Universe are the same every where. A creator, once having established a formula for creating things, would continue to use that formula throughout the creative process. I would be happy to point you to several books on the subject.

I challenge anyone who gives the story of Christ a good and honest read with even a skeptical mind will be shaken to his core. The proofs of Christ's ressurection are many. Of course you need some help with understanding and thus the missionary.

We believe that Christ created the universe and was God. We believe that because God loves everyone ever born, He was not willing to see anyone suffer through eternity in hel_l, he sent His only Son to save us from a horrible fate. We believe that he was born of a virgin having been supernaturally impregnated. That he was fully man and fully God. That he was crucified for no reason, totally innocent, never having sinned. That he was bodily resurrected. That he will reign both here on earth, soon, and in heaven forever. That his last command, while on earth, to believers was to go unto all the earth telling all who would believe and baptizing him in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is our personal and corporate responsibility to tell everyone, not just because of the command, but also because of the love we have for everyone.

Sorry liberty.....there is far more proof to the theory of evolution then there is for your views on how the world began.

I would also like to hear the proof of the resurrection....and please tell me the proven facts

"telling all who would believe"....doesnt quite translate to "telling all that do not believe"

This love that Christians have....is this the same love that was shown during the crusades and various other wars that have been fought in the name of Christianity.

People have beliefs and values based on their experiences in life, Nobody has the right to try and force or coerce their own values and beliefs on others.

[liberty9133]

I respect all men. I respect every person's right to conduct his life in the manner he/she wishes. I may even like them. However, I certainly love them. If a man purports to love his brother and sister, then what actions must he take toward them? If they are in danger, must he not do what he can to help? Must he not put his own life on the line:"There is no greater love than this that a man five his life for another."Missionaries throughout time have done just that. The number of Christians killed because of their religion in the 20th century, exceeded that for all the previous 1900 years.

We are not natural martyrs; rather, our faith propels us in that direction quite often. This willingness to die for another is an example of what it is like to be a Christian. We are compelled, out of love, to share with all who would listen and hear, the Good News of Jesus Christ. If in the process, people are changed, like I was changed, then so much the better. Many cultures have changed for the better, usually keeping the best of the past and getting rid of the worst. There are things about the Thai culture that are wonderful and unique. There are also some that are not so hot. I am not here to condemn anyone or anyone's beliefs or culture. I am a Christian. That's all.

One last thing. Jesus was born for the poor, uneducated and out cast. He was born in a stinking stable. His birth announcement was made to an untouchable class--shephards. He was from the worst area of Gallilee and Nazareth. He was an out cast. He took on the establishment and the establishment crucufied him. . Remember, He said, "it is easier for a camel to be passd through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." His message offers hope to the hopeless. No wonder we go to the poor.

It hurts me to hear of all the Christian bashing on this post. We Christians, for the most part, are a loving and caring people. While there are misfits, cheats and emotionally disturbed individuals in any group, for the vast majority of Christians, it is our love that compels us to tell you about Jesus.

If you truly believed in the core of your mind AND heart that there is an everlasting destiny for you and everyone else on the planet and that the choices one makes here while alive affect what happens after you die, wouldn't you, out of love, warn those of the dangers of the wrong choice? Even the most callous and disreputable person would warn a pedestrian of an impending meet with death at the hands of a large truck barreling straight for him.

First, and this is not aimed at liberty9133, can we try to keep this thread on the subject of missionaries and the techniques they employ; if it goes off into arguments about Christianity, it will be a very long and ultimately bitter thread.

Liberty, I am sure you are a sincere and good person. But you must recognise that there are many different belief systems in the world, and the system you subscribe to is very much based on where you were born - had you been born in Indonesia, you might very well be espousing Islam with as much sincerity. I believe we should respect and tolerate different people's cultures; and in countries like Thailand, culture and religion are tightly inter-woven. To attempt to convert Thais to Christianity is to attempt to destroy Thai culture. Now, if you do that by engaging people in reasoned argument, that is one thing - but if you do it by bribing the poor and uneducated, I find it outrageous.

I live in a small village. I don't necessarily believe what I might refer to as the "superstitions" of the local people. However, I do respect their traditions and culture that are intimately tied to these beliefs.

[slackula]

This thread is amusing on many levels. My previous comment was quoted several times, which is also telling.

Dear Xtians: I will worship His Holiness the Flying Spaghetti Monster until convincing evidence is provided that I am wrong.

Edited February 3, 2007 by endure
Edited for language

[Smilodon]

So let me get this straight. Old Christianity = bad, but your new Christianity = good. Are you using a different book?

Cheese is cheese, and it doesn't relly make a difference what wrapper you put it in.

So, what you are saying is,it is not only that you are intolerant of people who belong to a different faith than you (and you must admit that bribing them to change their faith shows a high degree of intolerance) but also other Christians who don't share your interpretation of Christianity.

Metta

Nyet. What you and many regard as "old Christianity" had almost nothing to do with true Christianity except to have a statue of some blue-eyed red-haired Jesus nailed to a cross in their churches. To say that they are the same thing is like saying being a pedophile is the same as two adults being married. They both involve sex, so they are the same? No.

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

And, about people who have never heard about Jesus: If someone really wants truth, God will get it to them. If he has to transport someone supernaturally, as I said earlier, had whoever mentioned this actually been reading, then he can and will do so. It happened to Philip, as I said, in the New Testament, and it can still happen, if necessary.

But, most people don't really want truth. They want to do what they want, and have the results that only come from following truth. This doesn't work, any more than believing you are an airplane will save you from death if you jump off a tall building.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died. People thought certain serial murderer/rapists were nice. Until they got caught. By making it easy, for anyone, to accept his Son as their Savior, God did all that he could. If there is anything easier on Earth than saying "Yes, Jesus, I believe you are the Son of God and are raised fom the dead, be my Lord." What is it? It's not like it is some long list of penance activities or crawling on broken glass that God made, some impossible obstacle course to salvation that only the very few would ever be able to attain no matter how hard they tried.

God said only those who are of an innocent age, or those who have reached an age of accountability and accepted Jesus make it to heaven. Then made it free to anyone who wanted to.

If I was the doorman at a dance club, and said "You can't get in without a membership card. Here's a stack of free membership cards, just put your name on it and come in." People would argue that it was unfair or discriminatory that they couldn't get in without one?

People can take whatever path they want. The Bible makes it clear which one actually works. If you don't like it, don't like Christians, don't like God, don't like Jesus, that is your choice.

But, to get back on topic, we, the Christians are not perfect, and there are downright sinful practices that people have put a thin veil of Christianity over. This does not make Jesus Christ or serving him invalid. There are buddhists who have murdered and raped. This is not what makes buddhism invalid.

[dukkha]

This is a Buddist culture/nation/philosopy...why do you want to impose/debate/question the relevance of Christianity in such a context.....I find it meaningless that you even need to pursue some level of exigisis on this topic...if you adhere to some christian 'modus vivendi' why dont you let it be.....too many missionaries, peace activists have imposed their idealogues, etc., on cultures that are not their own in the sense of the perspective of being the way to salvation...I mean that each culture has its own reasons for dealing with the existenstitial dilemma, why should Chrsitianity be the only 'way' as sole solution to all of this 'finding meaning' for our existence. Theocracy has no part to play in Buddhism. Yet seems to me that those of you who adhere to some form of Judeo-Christianity are not willing to permit alternatives other than your concept of faith which is one of punishing for ill deeds etc.....once again I find a organised forms of religion complicit in the the very nature of Terroism..and one does not have to look far for examples of it in our global existence....May The Triple Gem guide us in all out journeys....cos Jeezus we have really f(((((*&^%$sd up,,,and may I sat not in a small way, but in a enoumous way....Dukkha ....

[slackula]

The Bible makes it clear which one actually works. If you don't like it, don't like Christians, don't like God, don't like Jesus, that is your choice.

Hmm.. interesting. Do you believe that the bible should be read literally or simply as a guide to behaviour? Before you answer I would direct you to read Leviticus once again.

But, to get back on topic, we, the Christians are not perfect, and there are downright sinful practices that people have put a thin veil of Christianity over. This does not make Jesus Christ or serving him invalid. There are buddhists who have murdered and raped. This is not what makes buddhism invalid.

Actually, that comment is totally off topic! The subject here is the rights and wrongs of xtian missionary work, not the rights and wrongs of religion itself.

Edited February 3, 2007 by endure
Edited for language

[Smilodon]

This is a Buddist culture/nation/philosopy...why do you want to impose/debate/question the relevance of Christianity in such a context.....I find it meaningless that you even need to pursue some level of exigisis on this topic...if you adhere to some christian 'modus vivendi' why dont you let it be.....too many missionaries, peace activists have imposed their idealogues, etc., on cultures that are not their own in the sense of the perspective of being the way to salvation...I mean that each culture has its own reasons for dealing with the existenstitial dilemma, why should Chrsitianity be the only 'way' as sole solution to all of this 'finding meaning' for our existence. Theocracy has no part to play in Buddhism. Yet seems to me that those of you who adhere to some form of Judeo-Christianity are not willing to permit alternatives other than your concept of faith which is one of punishing for ill deeds etc.....once again I find a organised forms of religion complicit in the the very nature of Terroism..and one does not have to look far for examples of it in our global existence....May The Triple Gem guide us in all out journeys....cos Jeezus we have really f(((((*&^%$sd up,,,and may I sat not in a small way, but in a enoumous way....Dukkha ....

But, to say that a region practices buddhism/hinduism/islam/child sacrifice (as did the worshipers of Molech, whom God instructed the Israelites to wipe out) and that therefore Christianity should not be there is a contradiction, to we, the Christians. That is like saying that you don't need a doctor where everyone already is sick. Since sickness is everywhere, doctors are therefore unneccessary?

Jesus himself answered those who criticized him for hanging out with "sinners" by saying those who are sick need a doctor, not those who are well. He went on to say that he had not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

And, regarding "punishing for ill deeds," should ill deeds be rewarded? Should those who murder, steal, and cheat be left alone? If so, why are there jails, courts, and police, yea, even in Thailand?

[endure]

Less of the insults please.

[thaibebop]

I am concerned with Christians everywhere......they freak me out.

[sceadugenga]

The more I read this the sadder I get. The doctrine that Christ taught bears little resemblance to the trashy version touted in the 21st century. Why? Pride and arrogance play no part in Christianity and the posts defending it are full of these things.

[Jet Gorgon]

The more I read this the sadder I get.

Yes. It is a pity that people are attacking these missionaries. Are they doing anything but offering kindness and help to these poor villagers? I do not think they are teaching the children how to make bombs, or to incite hatred against people of other religions, or that they are abusing the people in any way. OK, religion is involved, but I had Christianity pushed at me when I was young, too. As I grew older, I still appreciated the morals and teachings, but made up my own mind what I wanted to believe in. To teach goodness and love of all things is not bad, in my view.

[Thaddeus]

The more I read this the sadder I get. The doctrine that Christ taught bears little resemblance to the trashy version touted in the 21st century. Why? Pride and arrogance play no part in Christianity and the posts defending it are full of these things.

You missed off the part about quite large sums of money.

A quote from Genesis...........

I believe in the family

With my ever loving wife beside me

But she dont know about my girlfriend

Or the man I met last night

Do you believe in god

Cos thats what I'm selling

And if you wanna get to heaven

I'll see you right

You wont even have to leave your house

Or get outta your chair

You dont even have to touch that dial

Cos I'm everywhere

And jesus he knows me

And he knows I'm right

Ive been talking to jesus all my life

Oh yes he knows me

And he knows I'm right

Well hes been telling me

Everythings gonna be alright

Won't find me practising what Im preaching

Won't find me making no sacrifice

But I can get you a pocketful of miracles

If you promise to be good, try to be nice

God will take good care of you

Just do as I say, don't do as I do

More seriously, hand out leaflets, stick adverts on billboards, let everyone have the freedom to decide for themselves in what they care to believe.

Buying the poor with conditions applied is just plain wrong.

[garro]

hot topic , love it

belief = conflict

belief does not equal truth

most believers think their belief is a truth,

this is incorrect.

believers become very attached to their beliefs,

thus conflict can ensue when a belief is challenged.

so its all about "nothing",

since a belief is just that, nothing, it is not something that really exists.

political and religious believers are very dangerous people.

Thats interesting, and in theory, I tend to agree with you, but then my grandmother (who was a devout 7th Day Adventist) went and proved me completely wrong about my preconceived notions regarding devout Christians.

I asked my mother once what my grandmother thought of the fact that my husband was Buddhist and not Christian. And my mother said that my grandmother was happy my husband had a belief system to fall back on if trouble came, it was me she was worried about, because I don't believe in anything!

I was flabbergasted, I assumed that she would disapprove of his Buddhism simply because he wasn't Christian.

Sbk, this is really good to hear; your grandmother sounds like a wise and tolerant person. In a similar way, my grandmother who was a devout Catholic (daily mass), although unable to understand my conversion to Buddhism was able to accept it, so long as it made me happy.

When I originally posted this topic I was aware that it was likely to sow division, but still felt that the subject was worthy of discussion. I now feel that this decision was mistaken. While there has been some thought-provoking posts, including some from Christians, many are mere preaching, accusations or attempts at one-upmanship.

As I have said repeatedly, I do not have anything against missionaries and the reason I am focusing on Christian missionaries is because they are the ones that are using, what I consider to be, unfair means of attracting followers in the village where I live.

I notice that a few people have mentioned that Thailand forces Buddhism onto its population and argue that Thai society oppresses its people through this. As somebody who previously lived and worked in Saudi Arabia I think that I can reassure people that Thailand is far from oppressive. I left Saudi because I found it difficult to live in such a society where religion and politics were so closely mixed. I did not stay there and bitch about it, nor do I spend time on the Saudi Arabian Visa Website complaining about how bad their country is. I respect the Saudis' right to practice their religion and culture as they see fit but it didn't suit me so I left. I do not recognise the Thailand that many describe in their posts on this forum; it sounds like a dreadful place and not only would I not like to live there, I wouldn't even wish to visit.

Metta

[jumnien]

One of the great joys of living in Thailand for me is to see the monks at dawn doing their alms rounds, the sound of buddhist chanting, the selling of the lotuses and the constant barrage of requests to put money on the money tree for the wat or the fund to build bathrooms for this wat or won't you buy food for the old goldfish or spare change for a nun. The joy at dawn from my balcony of the mosque in the distance with their call to prayer and the smell of rotis. The smiles on the faces of the occasional young blonde large-breasted Christian missionary from the Midwest.

As they say in the ghetto I used to call home, "It's all good!" Or in the words of the great contemporary American philosopher and social critic, Rodney King, "Can't we all get along?"

[svenivan]

The more I read this the sadder I get.

Yes. It is a pity that people are attacking these missionaries. Are they doing anything but offering kindness and help to these poor villagers? I do not think they are teaching the children how to make bombs, or to incite hatred against people of other religions, or that they are abusing the people in any way. OK, religion is involved, but I had Christianity pushed at me when I was young, too. As I grew older, I still appreciated the morals and teachings, but made up my own mind what I wanted to believe in. To teach goodness and love of all things is not bad, in my view.

Ohh, I am almost crying hearing these words, "The poor missionaries!". They sacrifice so much, have to live a life out in the jungle with this wild people in small 4-bedroom houses, drive small Toyota Fortuners, send their children to the best private schools you can find, take 6 weeeks holidays abroad etc etc.

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

You never heard how they set up children against their parents telling them that wearing traditional clothes are bad, if they follow their parents traditions they will never come to heaven and that their parents will burn in hel_l in eternity.

I don't think that many of the guys here defending the missionaries and what they are doing here would be very happy if Muslim missionaries went around in US and invited small children to learn to be good Muslims bribing tem with presents etc.

Would yo like to see your children and grandchildren be taken care of these missionaries?

Why don't the missionaries start their work in their own homelands and try to get the Christian people there to follow the Ten Commandments?

There is so much more <deleted> going on there that hurt people around them.

No, Missionaries Suck! Kick them out of Thailand!

If they want to help people that is OK but not in exchange of converting to another religion!

svenivan

[El Taco Loco]

There was a small uproar a few months ago in Kao Lak, as some religious group was helping to build homes, etc etc, but you had to attend their church and help build their homes. I agree with the latter, but not the former.

There is a price to pay and having seen in person how these missionaries behave (I grew up in South America), and past history, these people need to cool it. They are already in trouble in Indonesia.

Kick them out! They are needed in their own neighborhoods, the hypocrits!

[Jimjim]

The more I read this the sadder I get.

Yes. It is a pity that people are attacking these missionaries. Are they doing anything but offering kindness and help to these poor villagers? I do not think they are teaching the children how to make bombs, or to incite hatred against people of other religions, or that they are abusing the people in any way. OK, religion is involved, but I had Christianity pushed at me when I was young, too. As I grew older, I still appreciated the morals and teachings, but made up my own mind what I wanted to believe in. To teach goodness and love of all things is not bad, in my view.

Ohh, I am almost crying hearing these words, "The poor missionaries!". They sacrifice so much, have to live a life out in the jungle with this wild people in small 4-bedroom houses, drive small Toyota Fortuners, send their children to the best private schools you can find, take 6 weeeks holidays abroad etc etc.

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

You never heard how they set up children against their parents telling them that wearing traditional clothes are bad, if they follow their parents traditions they will never come to heaven and that their parents will burn in hel_l in eternity.

I don't think that many of the guys here defending the missionaries and what they are doing here would be very happy if Muslim missionaries went around in US and invited small children to learn to be good Muslims bribing tem with presents etc.

Would yo like to see your children and grandchildren be taken care of these missionaries?

Why don't the missionaries start their work in their own homelands and try to get the Christian people there to follow the Ten Commandments?

There is so much more <deleted> going on there that hurt people around them.

No, Missionaries Suck! Kick them out of Thailand!

If they want to help people that is OK but not in exchange of converting to another religion!

svenivan

Once again, complete and utter stereotyping and over-generalizing. Christianity is a broad religion with many different beliefs and ways of preaching the gospel. You can't lump all Christian missionaries together and say they all try to convert the same way. Some may be disrespectful to the culture they are in, yes, but that doesn't mean all are so.

It's severe folly to lump any sort of group together, ethnic, religious, etc. and condemn the whole group for the actions of a few. This is how terrorists think.

If you all understood Christianity, you would know that Jesus said to "Go into all the world" to convert others to his message. So, yeah, to say Christians should stay in their own countries would mean they are not following what their savior said.

And are all missionaries rich and drive Toyota Fortuners? Hardly. I've seen many missionaries who live on 9000 baht a month. Once again, I think some need to get a grip on reality. I think many of you don't understand Christianity.

[Ulysses G.]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.